jwaters943

Acura is definitely a rung above Subaru and Nissan in most peoples minds. I think, and this is just my opinion, that Acura is more similar to Infiniti than any other "luxury" automaker I can think of (i.e. Lexus, MB, BMW, Audi, Cadillac).

Gebbeth

With respect to Nissan, I meant both Infiniti and Nissan, as Nissan is the parent company of Infiniti I think with the influence of Nissan's new European shareholder (was it Peugeot?), Infiniti and Nissan have gone sport 1st, luxury second.

Subaru does not have a second "luxury" brand, but when their new Legacy comes out, I think it's clear that Subaru have decided to go upscale and sport. Don't know if the Legacy will get then that far (they may really need to start a luxury name plate), but that car is looking good both inside and out AND seems to want to be on the sporty side as well (I'm hearing 280 HP, albeit from a high reving turbo-charged flat four...eeeck and AWD).

The more important question is if Acura also wants to be sport first and luxury second, I don't think the current line-up is there also.

Xtrema

It's Renault.

Quote:

Subaru does not have a second "luxury" brand, but when their new Legacy comes out, I think it's clear that Subaru have decided to go upscale and sport. Don't know if the Legacy will get then that far (they may really need to start a luxury name plate), but that car is looking good both inside and out AND seems to want to be on the sporty side as well (I'm hearing 280 HP, albeit from a high reving turbo-charged flat four...eeeck and AWD).

Subaru's unofficial luxury brand is Saab. You will start seeing WRX platfrom turning into the next 9-2/9-3. BTW, GM owns both Saab and most of Subaru, that's why this is happening. This is a good thing, at least we are not going the other way around. (Think the next WRX share the same platform as Saturn Ion!!! . )

Quote:

The more important question is if Acura also wants to be sport first and luxury second, I don't think the current line-up is there also.

No. Acura will probably have at least 5 years to go before it can play with the big boys.

Lack of a flagship and you top 2 car is more than 10 years old hurts the brand. Once new RSX and DNX comes out, the outlook would be better.

Also, time to move RSX upscale. Sell only RSX-S with leather and 17" wheel. There'll be no respect for Acura brand if you keep seeing some cheap ass wheel-covered base-model RSX roaming around town.

Another SUV? Doesn't hurt. BMW's X3 is coming, might as well rebadge the CRV and get ready for the fight.

Acura did a good job with TL by raising its profile and price. Leave the low end to Honda, it's time for Acura to shoot for the top

bdt980

I think Acura needs to come with an all out luxary Sedan. the RL needs to just die and they come with something totally new. The RL is losing respect for acura. They need to Drastically change something about that car. Dealers here can't give them away. For starters it has got to be a V8 with at least 300HP. Even if they have to borrow an engine from GM(not like Honda Hasen't every got something from another company before--Pathfinder--)and tweek it a little that should start them on there way.

If this RL doesnt have major improvements it will dissapoint a LOT of people, especially here. I hope they dont drop the ball with the RL. The time has come for them to step up their game bigtime

bdt980

In a perfect world Toyata and Honda motors should merge. That would completely monopolize the automotive industry. The Acura could take what technology Lexus had and incorporate it into the their cars. If this happened they would have a car for evry singal person and Honda would have the money to be the risk-taking company they once were.

but it isnt and we are faced with reality!

Gebbeth

I agree with bdt and xtrema, Acura is not there yet, and the new RL "rumors" don't look that encouraging. Even justin is saying Honda don't have and won't go on to develop a V-8, so the RL is another V-6 albeit may be with IMA (still no confirmation).

Question: Not being an engineer, I can still see how developing an entirely new engine could be a huge cost drain. Going from I4 and V-6 expertise to V-8 is difficult. But would Honda's V-6 excellence make it easy for them to create a V-12? I know it's not as easy as mating two V-6s together, but theorhetically can this be done?

Also, were any of Honda's F1 engines V-12s or V-10s? What ever happened to that experience? Shouldn't that engine have filtered down to their passenger cars? What about their CART engines? Aren't these V-8s (albeit running on methanol and boosted)?

d-rock

umm it wasn't the pathfinder it was the isuzu trooper that was badges as a acura SLX...as for the RL i don't think the next one will disappoint all of the new acuras introduced as been amazing

justinjsw

Honda Passport=Rodeo and SLX=Trooper were borrowed from you know who.

Again I do not have the article anymore but if memory serves me correct...Honda said to develop a V8 from scratch it will cost the company between 500 million to a billion dollars and 5/6 years. The cost includes everything from R/D to final production of the powerplant. To recoup this investment it will take honda close to 8/10 years after it hits the market to break even. Further more it will go against what Honda stands for in the first place...doing more with less. So if we are to see a V8 powered Honda/Acura in the near future, that V8 would not have been developed by Honda. For Honda right now it's IMA or nothing.

And I agree with some of you the RSX in any form should not be in Acuras lineup. It belongs to Honda so it can compete against the Celica. The starter car should be the TSX. And it should come in different versions with different powerplants and optional AWD.

Colin

Good question on the CL? Experience shows us that a very small but veeeerrrrrryy vocal group will always cry for a manual tranny. Adding the 6-speed to the CL was almost doomed to failure from the start. Adding a slow selling feature to a slow selling car won't help things. Personally, I think Honda themselves are to blame for the trouble the CL (both generations) had. Look no further than the Accord coupe. IMO the market for 30K 2 doors is pretty damn small, it's too expensive for the "kids" and too cheap for the "empty nesters" and adding a coupe in the Honda line, took away the sales of the younger buyers that might have "squeezed" into the CL.

Think back to the late 90's when the 2nd gen CL was on the drawing boards, Honda/Acura was selling the CL, Accord Coupe, Integra, Civic coupe, Prelude and had only one in-house SUV, the CR-V. :shakehd: SUVs were already all the rage and we were caught flat footed and stuck with a coupe heavy product line. Look how different it is now!

As for having a luxury coupe at Acura, I'd only want it if it was RWD. You need to get the words "platform and S2000" out of the same sentence. The S2000 is a purpose built car and cannot be modified to accept different wheel bases and engines. I heard that the guy who was responsible for moving the S2000 from the Acura side (it would have been the SSX) to the Honda side, thought he could have Japan "throw in a V-6" and make an Acura version of the car. The engineers at Tochigi had a good laugh at that one

EuphratesTheAlmighty

First of all, anyone who thinks that IMA (an underused and unproven technology) is less of a risk than developing a V-8 is an idiot. This type of talk makes it sound as if Honda doesn't plan on being around in 10 years. And as for doing more w/ less, what do you call developing a V-8 that performs like a v-12? Honda could do it. And they would, if they weren't run by a bunch of heterosexually-challenged-penny-pinching-tree-huggin'-assclowns.

IMO, all off the cars in Acura's line-up should be in honda's line-up. The name "Acura" itself is just an Amercian gimmick to sound luxurious. The Honda company has never embraced the concept of true "luxury" (i.e. the luxury of passing power that a v-8 provides).


Remember where we come from guys... :'(

http://www.hondaracing.com/heritage/index.html

And did this really cost a billion dollars? Why waste time with this?.... Why?

http://www.honda.com.au/discover+hon.../v8+engine.htm

provench

Well ... this is a particularly narrow view of running a business. Risk is half of the equation ... what about the reward aspect? You think Honda would rather have a 350HP from a V8 that "might" get 28-30 mpg (who knows how that might be done by Honda) ... or do you think that an IMA setup that can get close to 50mpg (already doing that in concept form) with 350HP and tons of torque from electric motors might be a bit more pleasing to us? And unless you are talking about a large construction truck ... who needs a V-12 or 400+ HP?

So for me, I like the risk/reward path that Honda is taking ... get the power, get the low price and get it the "smart" way by delivering it in a sensible way with 40+ mpg. And by the way ... let's not assume the IMA investment just started ... my guess is hybrid model has been a huge focus for Honda for the last 5-10 years already. Just a matter of aligning the marketing approach at this point.

I will say I am with you on the Acura thing ... I would have bought the TSX with a Honda badge with zero problems. I will also happily take the V8 in your second URL dropped in my TSX

EuphratesTheAlmighty

I understand where Honda is coming from w/ the concept of the IMA, and its all very cute and innovative an enviromentally-friendly. But much like Satelite radio and two-way pagers, I think this Idea is goin to flop and flop hard. For one, IMA is not cheap. The prices of all Hondas/Acuras will raise substantially. Secondly, when I say "unproven", I mean in real-world performance scenarios. So the fact that its working in concept form means nothing to me.

When I made the comment about less is more, my point was that it doesn't have to stop at the V-6 level. Honda could still do more w/ less, but this time the less would be a V-8.

Honda is the #1 engine/motor maker both currently and in the history of the world. Now they think that their motors need assistance? WTF?? Soichiro would not have it (not that I new the guy personally, God rest his soul).

bdt980

They could use that V-8 and tweek it a little bit and drop it in the RL. It has 650+Hp. This would shut a tremendous amount of people up.

lshenretty

Larch, you got out of your TL early to get a TSX. Do you think you might get out of your TSX early to go to the new TL?

EuphratesTheAlmighty

justinjsw

I don't think anybody has said that Honda shouldn't have a V8 engine in their inventory...the fact is they should...but they don't.

Hondas reasoning was if they did develop a V8 it will be of very limited use to them. Where with IMA...this system can be used in all their platforms thus giving them a much faster and better return.

IMA/hybrid tech is only a couple of years away at the most. Heck Toyota has already said they want to have Hybrid tech in all their cars by 2005/2006.

IMO, I think Honda needs a RWD platform before anything else. And I have a feeling they do.

And stop with bringing over their V8 power plants from their racing division.

Euphrates...why are you getting so emotional? Do you think I own Honda?

EuphratesTheAlmighty

Honda is a company w/ its heritage built on racing. I'm not saying Honda should make engingine-bay altering kits so that engine can fit in a civic. I'm just boasting about what honda is capable of in the realm of V-8's. Honda has done all that it can do w/ V-6's. And instead of taking the logical path and moving to a bigger platform, they choose to slap batteries on the V-6's. If you want a stronger line in football, you get bigger players, you don't give your current line steroids (did I just say that? Oh well, I'll leave it... It might make sense to somebody). BTW, all Honda engines have some incorporation of knowledge gained from the racing division. I guess the thing that bothers me is that Honda's engines will be fine, but what about those heavy-ass batteries that the engines will now rely on?

Uhhh.......hmmmm. I hope you're joking 'cuz I certainly was. All emotion in my posts are for entertainment purposes only. But just in case you are serious, I'll leave you with this quote,

"Don't be so humble, for you are not that great"


loosin' up

justinjsw

thanks for the quote...and I leave you with mine...:pfawk:

Bigger does not = stronger.

As far as weight...Civic EX sedan 2601lbs...Civic IMA hybrid Sedan 2661lbs.

justinjsw

Torrance, Calif. 10/01/2000 -- Honda's Insight 1.0-liter IMA (Integrated Motor Assist) hybrid engine was chosen as the International Engine of the Year for 2000 by a team of 34 respected motor journalists and industry experts from around the world. Sponsored by Engine Technology International Magazine, the Honda engine placed ahead of the Ferrari 5.5-liter V12, Alfa Romeo 2.5-liter V6, and the BMW 3-liter 6-cylinder and 4-liter V8 Turbodiesels.

Honda's IMA engine was chosen by Engine Technology International Magazine as International Engine of the Year for 2000.

justinjsw

Honda Wary of Building V8, Chief Engineer Says

By: Norihiko Shirouzu, Staff Reporter of The Wall Street Journal

LOS ANGELES -- A senior Honda Motor Co . executive said the No. 2 Japanese auto maker likely won't build a V8 engine unless it could improve the engine's fuel economy and emissions beyond the industry's norm.

He said one way to address the lack of V8 powertrain options in Honda vehicles may be to create a propulsion system that combines a V6 engine with an electric motor to offer V8-like power.

Tomoyuki Sugiyama, an executive chief engineer of Honda's research arm in Japan , said in an interview here that Honda remains apprehensive about making a V8 engine if it is the kind that guzzles gas.

Some Honda dealers have been asking Honda to offer V8 engines, but the company has insisted that its sales of full-size vehicles aren't large enough to justify a new family of big engines. Other dealers also want Honda to build pickup trucks, a move that could justify developing a V8 engine. Honda admits it has " studied" the possibility of developing pickup trucks, but Yuzuru Matsuno, a Honda spokesman in Detroit , said the auto maker hasn't made a final decision on the possibility. Honda isn't likely to enter the pickup-truck market any time soon, he added.

Mr. Sugiyama said that as a corporate strategy, Honda "tries to put a higher priority on safety and environmental friendliness" over sheer power. "We won't likely develop V8 engines unless we can come up with a technical solution to their fuel economy and emissions" and make them a standout in the industry.

One solution the company is considering, Mr. Sugiyama said, is to try to create a V6 engine that can put out V8-like power, instead of trying to develop a cleaner and more economical V8 powertrain.

"That's one direction we could take," he said.

-Norihiko Shirouzu, The Wall Street Journal; 313-510-5886

justinjsw

My memory did not serve me correct..since my est. were off..

LOS ANGELES -- Despite the auto industry's revived interest in V-8 engines and rear-wheel-drive cars, Honda Motor Co. Ltd. will stand by its contrarian reputation and resist both trends, a top engineer says.

Honda says smaller engines and front-wheel-drive vehicles fit the company's environmental conscience. But some industry watchers say that V-8s and rwd cars would be too costly for Honda.

Tomoyuki Sugiyama, executive chief engineer of Honda R&D Co. Ltd., said Honda can make its V-6 engines powerful enough to take on V-8s and make its fwd platforms as performance-oriented as other automakers' rwd vehicles.

"Other automakers have V-8 engines, so we would just become one of them. Technically, we can do a V-12 if you want. But this has more to do with the Honda philosophy in dealing with the environment, the future and energy consumption," Sugiyama said in an interview at the media introduction of the 2003 Honda Accord.

Sugiyama said Honda prefers fwd because it makes for a lighter vehicle and more tire grip on slippery roads.

Honda uses rwd on two sporty cars, the S2000 and NSX. Honda also has all-wheel-drive technology, though it is derived from the Japan-market fwd Accord.

"There was a time in the past when front-engine, front drive was considered lesser than rear drive because of NVH (noise, vibration and harshness) concerns and driving feel," Sugiyama said. "But today we have the technology to provide excellent high-performance, even though a car might be front drive. Honda feels no crucial need to develop rear-wheel drive."

Honda Motor President Hiroyuki Yoshino has resisted calls for Honda to build a V-8 engine.

For nearly a decade, analysts have predicted Honda's entry into both V-8 and rwd segments because luxury vehicles such as the fwd Acura 3.5RL have fared poorly against its V-8-powered competition.

The trend toward rwd is growing: The Chrysler group will replace the Dodge Intrepid and Chrysler Concorde with rwd cars in 2003. General Motors will revive the Pontiac GTO next year with a rwd car from its Australian subsidiary.

Honda insiders confirm the automaker has gathered reams of market research on V-8s and rwd, but recouping the massive development costs is overwhelming.

A consultant who declined to be named estimated that developing and tooling up both a rwd platform and a V-8 engine family would conservatively cost $2 billion. At that cost, even if Honda sold 100,000 such equipped vehicles a year, it would take 20 years to recoup its investment, the consultant said.

Dan Bonawitz, American Honda Motor Co. Inc. vice president of planning and logistics, agreed that the high costs are a barrier. "There is a significant investment involved, and you have to have the volume to get the return on your investment. The U.S. may have big horsepower V-8 bragging rights, but a lot is changing with the certification of fuel economy standards, the fuel supply and environmental regulations. We need to show other options."

The market for V-8 rwd vehicles is small, with many costing more than $50,000.

"Having a V-8 and rear drive doesn't guarantee success or large volumes. Just look at the new Infiniti Q45," Bonawitz said.

The Q45 has sold just 1,676 units through May, off 38 percent from a lackluster 2001.

"Other companies do a large V-8 as an image halo," Bonawitz said. "But does Acura need it to be considered successful? No."

There also is the matter of manufacturing productivity. Honda and Acura claim 7 percent of the U.S. market with just 3 percent of the product offerings, Bonawitz said.

Adding low-volume products equipped with a V-8 or rwd or both would lower that manufacturing productivity. "

Alex

Oh man - do not listen sales/marketing guys
How about Honda having V8 since 1994 - diabolish 3.5L V8 producing 650+ horsepower at 10,300 rpm (rev mandated limit)
Here's some info (in english):
http://www.honda.com.au/discover+hon.../v8+engine.htm
http://www.hondaracing.com/pit/index.html
Look how Honda used NSX V6 3.0/3.2L 252/290hp experience to build TL-S 3.2 260hp - *exactly* same thing could be done with V8.
I already posted here quite a few links proving that Honda had before and sell now numerous AWD mated with 200+hp engines, unfortunately I do not if they any good but fact remains very clear - Honda has AWD (not to mention recent VTM-4 AWD system development).

But since it was already clearly stated that Honda made a marketing statement not to bring AWD to US and not to build V8 - after all they can sell plenty FWD / V6 cars and make money out of it.

Alex

Ops,
EuphratesTheAlmighty already posted that links

justinjsw

There were no statements maked about bringing or nor bringing AWD to the U.S. Just a V8...but that was with the out going CEO of Honda. So who knows?

Gebbeth

Please don't take my questions about Honda's racing engines to mean I want a 650 HP racing engine in a passenger car. These car manufacturers are always saying that the billions they put into their racing programs are critical to developing technology that goes into passenger cars later on (and of course for marketing purposes). Why then race with a V-8 instead of V-6 to maximize the transfer of this tech? Why don't they make V-6 racing engines for F1 and CART and IRL? WHY? BECAUSE THEY WON'T COMPETE NO MATTER HOW MUCH HP A V-6 CAN BE MADE TO PUMP OUT. IT'S A COMPETITIVE DISADVANTAGE!!!! So why then would Honda/Acura insist it could compete in the luxury or sport market with no V-8?

The way I see it, the billions that Honda is quoting it would take to develop a V-8 has already been spent in their X years in racing both in formula 1 and CART and now IRL. May be some of their engine technology could be used to produce a passenger V-8 or experimental V-12. For heavens sake, it's a matter of priority not cost, and I guess Honda has decided "No, we are not going to chase that market."

But you see, this answers my question in a way. Acura will never be a luxury make, will never "blow the 5 Series out of the water," will not compete with Lexus, will not regain what was it's heritage as a risk taking cutting edge car maker that used it's know-how and gumption to break into and out-maneuver mighty Toyota...because now it has become a staid, risk-adverse, ho-hum car manufacturer that makes okay cars. Honda was presented with a challenge and it decided to say "no" to it.

provench

I just thought of another way for a company like Honda to bring in the V8 ... do it with the technology that allows cylinders to shut down when cruising ... hmmm ... they did this in Japan already so maybe that is the best guess yet?

justinjsw

So bottom line is a V8 engine will take Honda to the next level. Well time will tell. V8 we don't have...IMA we do have. IMA is longer a concept...it's already being mass produced.

What would you rather have in your next car? A RWD 350HP V8 @22MPG or an AWD IMA 350HP V6 @35MPG?

Jason

You're dealing with ignorant people justin, they'd prefer the V-8. Everyone else has a V-8 you know.

ViperLuke

[QUOTE]Originally posted by justinjsw
[B]So bottom line is a V8 engine will take Honda to the next level. Well time will tell. V8 we don't have...IMA we do have. IMA is longer a concept...it's already being mass produced.

What would you rather have in your next car? A RWD 350HP V8 @22MPG or an AWD IMA 350HP V6 @35MPG?[QUOTE]
I'm all for the newer more efficient technology. As long as it really does deliver. If an AWD 350Hp V6@35mgp sedan becomes a reality. I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

1SICKLEX

It takes more than just a "V=8" to be a luxury car maker. Infiniti has had it for years, Lincoln has it in the LS, Caddy has it and no one takes them seriously as a luxury car, they are no were near BMW, Benz, and Lexus in sales and prestige.

SAAB is not the luxury division of Suburu, that is utter garbage. GM owns SAAB, not Suburu. SAAB is getting a lame ass Trailblazer for a SUV and a WRX as a cheaper sedan. SAAB as we know it, it gone and pretty much sucks. They are losing ALL of their indivuality to sell cars (as we see with Jaguar, selling cars can KILL your brand)

Even if Acura had a V-8, only Honda or previous Acura owners would buy it. Cheap cars cheapen a luxury brand and as long as Acura concentrates on the 30k and less market, they won't be taken serious. Acura makes great cars in this market don't get me wrong.

No one STILL gets these silly names, TL, RL, TSX, etc. People still REMEMBER Legend, Vigor and Integra.

Toyota has already developed hybrids and they will be offered on every Toyota and Lexus by the year 2010. Lexus will acutally MARKET these Hybrids as performance cars.

The RX 330 Hybrid has been tested doing 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 30mpg on the highway. They will advertising it as having the power of a V-8 and the fuel economy of V-6 (cause advertising it as an I-4 would make it seem cheap).

I think Acura sells great cars at thier price level and blends a lil sport and a lil luxury and owners need to realize this.

MrChad

Well, I just skimmed some of the posts so If I missed anything said early--I don't care Any way, My 2 cents.

1. Honda (Acura) for the short term doesn't need to move up market. The reason why entry level luxury is so logical for Honda is that nearly all their Acura's share a platforms with a lower commodity, higher production volume chassis cars. This means they get to add a few bells and whistles and voila! You have a cash generator with good margins. Kinda like the Big 3 and SUV's, well not quite, but what ever. Developing an Acura V8 engine and larger platform automobile for it would require a lower comodity, higer volume honda twin.

2. This is my second point: I am the exact target market Honda is looking for in new truck market. Why? I have a 00 Accord Coupe and its tuned somewhat. For this reason I don't like driving it to work anymore where I am a engineer at a steel mill/bearing factory. (Enviroment is tough on cars.) So, I purchased a low milage cheap 4cyl S-10 from a former co-worker and I drive that to work. It's very useful, my wife and I use the bed all the time to haul materials for my various home improvement projects. So my next purchase may well be a new truck. However, full size models are too big for my daily need. So--I'm looking very forward to Honda's speculated debut of a Pilot based-unibody Truck. 4door and a open bed would do me perfect. In addition, I'd love having a V6 over a V8 in this vehical. I have long commutes and driving a harsh stiff framed V8 truck would not suit my needs or kidneys at all. If honda fails to deliver, I may to look at Frontier 4door, Tacoma 4door or an Explorer Sport trac to fit my future needs.

Ok--I'm long winded and off topic a lot, but I'm sure I can stir Larchmont into some type of reply

captainjack

Honda went with initials instead of names to emphasize the brand over the model. Like the Germans--and maybe Lexus.

Think about it: when you tell a non-gearhead friend what car you drive, don't you always say an "Acura TSX"?

Price and drivetrain are not what make prestigious cars. Look how excited we all are over the TSX. If Honda makes the next RL as sharp-looking and luxurious-feeling as the TSX and TL, they'll sell a ton of them.

If they put out another bland S-Class imitation, well, you'll still get $5K off MSRP.

DEVO

Intergrated Motor Assist... as in the civic hybrid

DEVO

my civic hybrid shuts down 3 or the 4 cylinders in certain modes.

larchmont

No way. I've already met my quota of "jerk" for the month.

EuphratesTheAlmighty

As far as power and price...Civic EX Sedan 1.7-liter, 127-hp VTEC® engine starting at $17,060...Civic IMA hybrid Sedan 1.3-liter, 93-hp "system" starting at $19,550.

Now those 93 head-turning horses -I assume- exist only when the electrical assist system is fully charged. Once that battery is weakend........wow .


Gebbeth, thank you. Your post was what I wanted to say verbatim this whole time but I didn't feel like typing all that. You understand exactly where I was coming from when I posted the links to hondaracing. Why race V-8's if you're only gonna produce V-6's and I-4's? Why continue to waste money on the NSX? And I agree, Honda did step down from a challenge. A challenge that would almost certainly change the face of the automotive industry.

Finally, since everyone wants to play the statistics game, I have the numbers broken down to a simpler equation:

Toyota makes V-8's and pick ups/Toyota is Japans #1 auto-maker
Honda doesn't make V-8's (except, of course, for racing)/ Honda is not Japans #1 automaker.

d-rock

you do realize that toyota is a much bigger company than honda is tho. and what challenge are you talkin about?

Colin

This ones easy to answer: The rules of the game DICTATE a V-8. When Honda raced in CART, the engine rules were strict. It had to a be 2.65 liter V-8 with turbocharging. If they wanted to play, they had to make such an engine. The IRL is the same way. It must be a normally aspirated V-8 of 3.5 (or was it 3.0) liters. Period.

When they raced in F-1 and the formula was 1.5 liter V-6 Turbos they made a 1.5 liter turbo good for around 1200 hp. When the formula changed to 3.5 liters with any engine configuration, they started with a V-10 and later changed to a V-12. Point is simple, in major motor racing, the manufacturer rarely dictates the formula. They make whatever they have to if they want to play. I'm surprised you don't know how big time motor sports works?

As for the NSX, who says it's a waste of money? Did it ever occur to anyone that with the development costs paid for, the car could be more profitable than ever?

EuphratesTheAlmighty

Honda is the "world's largest engine maker" and the #1 motocycle producer in the world. They aren't exactly small... let's get serious. And besides, Honda's size as an automotive company isn't Toyota's fault. I was just stating the simple facts. The "challenge" I was refering to was in Gebbeth's post on page 5.

I believe he was refering to the challenge of embracing a V-8 and taking it to its limits like they have the V-6. Could you imagine a VTEC® V-8 in the "Honda Legend"?

justinjsw

Saying Acura does not measure up to MB or BMW even Lexus is understandable. Bashing Honda about not having a V8 is also understandable. But quoting HP numbers from something you don't quite understand is not acceptable.

The Honda Civic EX uses a 1.7 Liter VTEC engine the Civic Hybrid is only using a 1.3 Liter Non VTEC engine...of course there will be a HP difference. The two gasoline engines are not the same. One is rated @127HP the other @85HP. So the point you make is not valid. IMA has nothing to do with the Hybrid having less HP then the EX. Also with any new product or tech the inital cost for that tech will always cost more in the beginning. Compare the pricing of a LCD TV to what it is now to what is was 3 years ago...there is a hugh difference in price. Because Honda dared to offer this tech first in a mass produced vehicle, they are now able to incorporate the system with most of their platforms and it will be put to use first in a "luxury" automobile before anybody else.