OFF the TL thread: Acura's brand status
08-03-2003, 03:48 PM
#81
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The Legend name never died. The same car that was the Acura Legend has always been (and continues to be) the Honda Legend in overseas markets. If I'm not mistaken, it's what we call the RL here. (Similarly, the RSX is still the Honda Integra in overseas markets.)
Regarding names, I much prefer names over initialisms. Until I started studying the TSX, I paid little attention to Acuras, partly because of their indistinct names: SLX, RL, TL, NDX, RSX, MDX, etc. (What's MDX mean anyway? Medical Doctor-X?) (NDX ? Neutral Density-X?) (SLX ? Sleazy-isuzu-Laugh-X?)
I agree with the person who expressed dislike for the dated but ongoing trend "on some cars of sweeping the headlights back over the fender tops, and giving them bulldog like snouty grills." That's what I dislike about the '03 Accords.
Those swept-back headlight clusters remind me of a person who had had ten-too-many face lifts. You know the way the skin around the eyes stretch and distort and pull back on some bitties who are addicted to face lifts? They look like freaks, as do the cars with swept headlighs.
Regarding names, I much prefer names over initialisms. Until I started studying the TSX, I paid little attention to Acuras, partly because of their indistinct names: SLX, RL, TL, NDX, RSX, MDX, etc. (What's MDX mean anyway? Medical Doctor-X?) (NDX ? Neutral Density-X?) (SLX ? Sleazy-isuzu-Laugh-X?)
I agree with the person who expressed dislike for the dated but ongoing trend "on some cars of sweeping the headlights back over the fender tops, and giving them bulldog like snouty grills." That's what I dislike about the '03 Accords.
Those swept-back headlight clusters remind me of a person who had had ten-too-many face lifts. You know the way the skin around the eyes stretch and distort and pull back on some bitties who are addicted to face lifts? They look like freaks, as do the cars with swept headlighs.
08-03-2003, 05:14 PM
#82
MDX = Multi Dimensional X-over vehicle
RSX = Rally Sport (?)
TSX = Touring Sport(?)
NSX = New Sportscar Experimental
TL = Touring Luxury
CL = Contempory Luxury
RL = Refined (or Road???) Luxury
"X" cars are the Sports/Speciality models
"L" cars are the Luxury models
RSX = Rally Sport (?)
TSX = Touring Sport(?)
NSX = New Sportscar Experimental
TL = Touring Luxury
CL = Contempory Luxury
RL = Refined (or Road???) Luxury
"X" cars are the Sports/Speciality models
"L" cars are the Luxury models
08-03-2003, 05:48 PM
#83
Originally posted by Colin
MDX = Multi Dimensional X-over vehicle
RSX = Rally Sport (?)
TSX = Touring Sport(?)
NSX = New Sportscar Experimental
TL = Touring Luxury
CL = Contempory Luxury
RL = Refined (or Road???) Luxury
"X" cars are the Sports/Speciality models
"L" cars are the Luxury models
MDX = Multi Dimensional X-over vehicle
RSX = Rally Sport (?)
TSX = Touring Sport(?)
NSX = New Sportscar Experimental
TL = Touring Luxury
CL = Contempory Luxury
RL = Refined (or Road???) Luxury
"X" cars are the Sports/Speciality models
"L" cars are the Luxury models
08-04-2003, 04:21 AM
#84
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Originally posted by justinjsw
Saying Acura does not measure up to MB or BMW even Lexus is understandable. Bashing Honda about not having a V8 is also understandable. But quoting HP numbers from something you don't quite understand is not acceptable.
The Honda Civic EX uses a 1.7 Liter VTEC engine the Civic Hybrid is only using a 1.3 Liter Non VTEC engine...of course there will be a HP difference. The two gasoline engines are not the same. One is rated @127HP the other @85HP. So the point you make is not valid. IMA has nothing to do with the Hybrid having less HP then the EX. Also with any new product or tech the inital cost for that tech will always cost more in the beginning. Compare the pricing of a LCD TV to what it is now to what is was 3 years ago...there is a hugh difference in price. Because Honda dared to offer this tech first in a mass produced vehicle, they are now able to incorporate the system with most of their platforms and it will be put to use first in a "luxury" automobile before anybody else.
Saying Acura does not measure up to MB or BMW even Lexus is understandable. Bashing Honda about not having a V8 is also understandable. But quoting HP numbers from something you don't quite understand is not acceptable.
The Honda Civic EX uses a 1.7 Liter VTEC engine the Civic Hybrid is only using a 1.3 Liter Non VTEC engine...of course there will be a HP difference. The two gasoline engines are not the same. One is rated @127HP the other @85HP. So the point you make is not valid. IMA has nothing to do with the Hybrid having less HP then the EX. Also with any new product or tech the inital cost for that tech will always cost more in the beginning. Compare the pricing of a LCD TV to what it is now to what is was 3 years ago...there is a hugh difference in price. Because Honda dared to offer this tech first in a mass produced vehicle, they are now able to incorporate the system with most of their platforms and it will be put to use first in a "luxury" automobile before anybody else.
What I'm talking about is that right now the faster car is cheaper and the slower one is more expensive. How is that point invalid? If that is the price increase on a slower car imagine the price of a performance car. And I thought we were discussing vehicles not televisions.
Quick lesson on points:
Just cuz YOU don't get it doesn't make it invalid
I'll believe this whole "perfomance IMA" stuff when I see it.
08-04-2003, 10:22 AM
#85
Originally posted by EuphratesTheAlmighty
What I'm talking about is that right now the faster car is cheaper and the slower one is more expensive. How is that point invalid? If that is the price increase on a slower car imagine the price of a performance car. And I thought we were discussing vehicles not televisions.
Quick lesson on points:
Just cuz YOU don't get it doesn't make it invalid
I'll believe this whole "perfomance IMA" stuff when I see it.
What I'm talking about is that right now the faster car is cheaper and the slower one is more expensive. How is that point invalid? If that is the price increase on a slower car imagine the price of a performance car. And I thought we were discussing vehicles not televisions.
Quick lesson on points:
Just cuz YOU don't get it doesn't make it invalid
I'll believe this whole "perfomance IMA" stuff when I see it.
READ the post!
On second thought...don't read the post. It's way too deep for your simple mind.
08-04-2003, 10:46 AM
#86
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That wouldn't be a bad idea. I also think Honda Motor Co. should make Acura, its luxury division, more upscale.
However, when you think of the Acura brand in North America you must also take Honda's global presence into consideration.
Acura is simply a subdivision created by Honda Motor Co. for North America only, in order to make its higher-end cars more appealling for North American consumers. (Overseas, Honda sells its luxury cars under the Honda name in separate dealerships - called the Blue Stage Dealerships). Therefore, all Acura's sold in America must be consistant with the Honda line-up overseas.
In order keep costs low while maintaing an outstanding line of vehicles, Honda Motor Co. is now using one single platform for several of its larger sedans worldwide. For instance, the new American Honda Accord is built on a longer version of the European/Japanese Accord's platform. The Euro-Japanese Accord is badged as Acura TSX in America, whereas the American Accord is sold overseas as Honda Inspire (with different grille and minor details). The next generation Acura TL will be built on the same platform as the American Accord, and will be exported overseas as a Honda Saber. Finally, the next-generation Honda Legend will be sold in America as the 2005 Acura RL. It will be based on a stretched version of the Accord's platform. However, rumors indicate it might use an all-aluminum body. We can than conclude that it would not be viable for Honda to make an ultra-luxury sedan, since it would be out of its market strategy: superb-quality, high-performance vehicles at competitive prices (unless we're talking about the next generation Honda/Acura NSX that will be aimed at Porsche, Ferrari, etc.).
We must keep in mind, though, that the Honda brand itself is known overseas to be of higher level in terms of quality, comfort and price, unlike the American Honda, which is made to compete in terms of price with GM, Ford, etc.
However, when you think of the Acura brand in North America you must also take Honda's global presence into consideration.
Acura is simply a subdivision created by Honda Motor Co. for North America only, in order to make its higher-end cars more appealling for North American consumers. (Overseas, Honda sells its luxury cars under the Honda name in separate dealerships - called the Blue Stage Dealerships). Therefore, all Acura's sold in America must be consistant with the Honda line-up overseas.
In order keep costs low while maintaing an outstanding line of vehicles, Honda Motor Co. is now using one single platform for several of its larger sedans worldwide. For instance, the new American Honda Accord is built on a longer version of the European/Japanese Accord's platform. The Euro-Japanese Accord is badged as Acura TSX in America, whereas the American Accord is sold overseas as Honda Inspire (with different grille and minor details). The next generation Acura TL will be built on the same platform as the American Accord, and will be exported overseas as a Honda Saber. Finally, the next-generation Honda Legend will be sold in America as the 2005 Acura RL. It will be based on a stretched version of the Accord's platform. However, rumors indicate it might use an all-aluminum body. We can than conclude that it would not be viable for Honda to make an ultra-luxury sedan, since it would be out of its market strategy: superb-quality, high-performance vehicles at competitive prices (unless we're talking about the next generation Honda/Acura NSX that will be aimed at Porsche, Ferrari, etc.).
We must keep in mind, though, that the Honda brand itself is known overseas to be of higher level in terms of quality, comfort and price, unlike the American Honda, which is made to compete in terms of price with GM, Ford, etc.
08-04-2003, 03:06 PM
#87
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Originally posted by justinjsw
So if we are to see a V8 powered Honda/Acura in the near future, that V8 would not have been developed by Honda. For Honda right now it's IMA or nothing.
So if we are to see a V8 powered Honda/Acura in the near future, that V8 would not have been developed by Honda. For Honda right now it's IMA or nothing.
Perhaps we've already seen a GM product with Honda technology: that Chevy or GMC pickup with four-wheel steering. It was a flop on the Prelude, and I don't know what success GM may be having with it.
Did the Honda/Acura-badged Isuzu Trooper (SLX) and Rodeo (Passport) have Isuzu or Honda engines? If Isuzu engines, it wouldn't surprise me if some of those engines were GM-sourced. GM-Holden (Australia), for example, ships scores of Holden-made engine blocks to Japan and South Korea. What do they go into? GM affiliates?
08-04-2003, 05:26 PM
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Sure, the Acura SLX was definitely an Isuzu product (the Isuzu Trooper). The Troopers/SLX that made it to America were powered by a 3.5 liter V6 built by Isuzu with cooperation with GM, its parent company. The Trooper is still built in Japan and sold in Australia as the Holden Jackaroo. Isuzu plays a major role in the commercial truck business and it is specialized in the production and development of diesel engines. Most Troopers/Jackaroos/Big Horns sold overseas are diesel powered and use Isuzu-developed powerplants. GM-Holden exports a bunch of engine blocks to Japan, where they're mostly used by Suzuki cars (another GM-affiliated brand) and South Korea, where they power many GM-Daewoo models.
Anyway, the Acura SLX and the Honda Passport were simply a poor marketing strategy used by Honda to temporarily fill up the lack of that kind of vehicle in its lineup.
Thank goodness Honda decided to develop its own award-winning Acura MDX and Honda Pilot!!!
Anyway, the Acura SLX and the Honda Passport were simply a poor marketing strategy used by Honda to temporarily fill up the lack of that kind of vehicle in its lineup.
Thank goodness Honda decided to develop its own award-winning Acura MDX and Honda Pilot!!!
08-07-2003, 07:05 PM
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Found this on another message board. Unfortunately, I guess this kind of product line-up will never happen with Acura/Honda.
**************
First of all, as you all know, Lexus will be introduced in Japan in 2005. This will have a great effect on upcoming models; we'll see a range of engine choices, more trims, and of course, higher resale value.
The next generation LS, likely to be released in 2006, will feature a choice of two engines. Most likely a revised version of the current 4.3 litre V8 (possibly 4.4), and an optional 5.2 or 5.3 litre V12.
In addition, Lexus will be introducing a long-wheelbase version of the LS, to be introduced possibly in 2007. It will feature the 5.2 (or 5.3) litre V12. Also, he said that the new LS will feature state of the art technology, a new 6-speed automatic, and will be very stylish.
Regarding the GS, he said that the release has been pushed back to early to mid-'05. He said it will be very stylish and feature evolutionary styling (think RX300 to RX330), but will be very distinctive. It will feature a choice of two, maybe three engines. Initially, the 3.3 litre 6-cylinder and 4.3 litre V8 will be used. He said there is a strong possibility that Lexus may also put in the 5.2 (or 5.3) litre V12 after the new LS is released.
The SC, just being released in 2001, isn't going to be redesigned any time soon. Look for a slight refreshening possibly in 2005, and the addition of the 3.3 litre V6 after the refreshening. Lexus may also opt to put the V12 in it as well, but by that time, it may be due for a redesign.
Lexus is set with SUV's. The RX and GX won't be undergoing anything major for a while. The fate of the LX is uncertain, and he said it might be discontinued after 2005.
Nothing major with the ES. The refresh will probably be in 2004 or 2005. It will get the 3.3 litre V6 and some aesthetic improvements.
Finally, on to the IS. The redesign will again be very evolutional and incorporate sweeping lines. It will still be very sporty, yet at the same time luxurious. Often times, the IS is criticized for being too "ricey", but he said the next generation won't look like this. Available will be the 3.3 litre V6, and possibly 4.3 litre V8 (I don't know about that one). But, there will also be a smaller engine available.
Now, I don't have inside conformation of this, but Mike sent me a picture of something called a Lexus GT. I'm guessing, if released, this would be a luxurious version of the upcoming Supra. It would compete with the Mercedes-Benz SL-class. If released, this car would most definitely have the V12.
Lexus is also considering developing a engine below the current 3.3 litre; possibly a 4-cylinder or smaller 6-cylinder to keep prices down and compete with a wider range of cars. No conformation as to whether or not they'll continue producing manual transmissions. The current IS 5-speed isn't selling, so it's unlikely that even if continued, it would appear in the SC330 or next generation GS330.
**************
**************
First of all, as you all know, Lexus will be introduced in Japan in 2005. This will have a great effect on upcoming models; we'll see a range of engine choices, more trims, and of course, higher resale value.
The next generation LS, likely to be released in 2006, will feature a choice of two engines. Most likely a revised version of the current 4.3 litre V8 (possibly 4.4), and an optional 5.2 or 5.3 litre V12.
In addition, Lexus will be introducing a long-wheelbase version of the LS, to be introduced possibly in 2007. It will feature the 5.2 (or 5.3) litre V12. Also, he said that the new LS will feature state of the art technology, a new 6-speed automatic, and will be very stylish.
Regarding the GS, he said that the release has been pushed back to early to mid-'05. He said it will be very stylish and feature evolutionary styling (think RX300 to RX330), but will be very distinctive. It will feature a choice of two, maybe three engines. Initially, the 3.3 litre 6-cylinder and 4.3 litre V8 will be used. He said there is a strong possibility that Lexus may also put in the 5.2 (or 5.3) litre V12 after the new LS is released.
The SC, just being released in 2001, isn't going to be redesigned any time soon. Look for a slight refreshening possibly in 2005, and the addition of the 3.3 litre V6 after the refreshening. Lexus may also opt to put the V12 in it as well, but by that time, it may be due for a redesign.
Lexus is set with SUV's. The RX and GX won't be undergoing anything major for a while. The fate of the LX is uncertain, and he said it might be discontinued after 2005.
Nothing major with the ES. The refresh will probably be in 2004 or 2005. It will get the 3.3 litre V6 and some aesthetic improvements.
Finally, on to the IS. The redesign will again be very evolutional and incorporate sweeping lines. It will still be very sporty, yet at the same time luxurious. Often times, the IS is criticized for being too "ricey", but he said the next generation won't look like this. Available will be the 3.3 litre V6, and possibly 4.3 litre V8 (I don't know about that one). But, there will also be a smaller engine available.
Now, I don't have inside conformation of this, but Mike sent me a picture of something called a Lexus GT. I'm guessing, if released, this would be a luxurious version of the upcoming Supra. It would compete with the Mercedes-Benz SL-class. If released, this car would most definitely have the V12.
Lexus is also considering developing a engine below the current 3.3 litre; possibly a 4-cylinder or smaller 6-cylinder to keep prices down and compete with a wider range of cars. No conformation as to whether or not they'll continue producing manual transmissions. The current IS 5-speed isn't selling, so it's unlikely that even if continued, it would appear in the SC330 or next generation GS330.
**************
08-08-2003, 12:56 AM
#90
Banned
Originally posted by EuphratesTheAlmighty
I understand where Honda is coming from w/ the concept of the IMA, and its all very cute and innovative an enviromentally-friendly. But much like Satelite radio and two-way pagers, I think this Idea is goin to flop and flop hard. For one, IMA is not cheap. The prices of all Hondas/Acuras will raise substantially. Secondly, when I say "unproven", I mean in real-world performance scenarios. So the fact that its working in concept form means nothing to me.
When I made the comment about less is more, my point was that it doesn't have to stop at the V-6 level. Honda could still do more w/ less, but this time the less would be a V-8.
Honda is the #1 engine/motor maker both currently and in the history of the world. Now they think that their motors need assistance? WTF?? Soichiro would not have it (not that I new the guy personally, God rest his soul).
I understand where Honda is coming from w/ the concept of the IMA, and its all very cute and innovative an enviromentally-friendly. But much like Satelite radio and two-way pagers, I think this Idea is goin to flop and flop hard. For one, IMA is not cheap. The prices of all Hondas/Acuras will raise substantially. Secondly, when I say "unproven", I mean in real-world performance scenarios. So the fact that its working in concept form means nothing to me.
When I made the comment about less is more, my point was that it doesn't have to stop at the V-6 level. Honda could still do more w/ less, but this time the less would be a V-8.
Honda is the #1 engine/motor maker both currently and in the history of the world. Now they think that their motors need assistance? WTF?? Soichiro would not have it (not that I new the guy personally, God rest his soul).
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