i thought this was a very interesting debate/discussion. whats everyones views on the standing of acura. is it in the right market should it be more upscale or its fine the way it is. i think it can be more upscale it would be nice like to hear "wow you bought a acura, how much did that cost you", and be jealous of the person who bought the car just like how some people are with benz and bmw.

heres my post within the TL thread

"heres a new view on things what if acura was to bring out a new sedan in the 60k area?? this would keep everything in its place. this new sedan is what acura is missing if BMW didn't have the 7 series, MB without S class, Lexus without LS430, and audi without A8, they would all be in the same position as acura is in right now

rsx/tsx- entry lower level coupe and sedan (325, A41.8T,C230,IS300)
TL/CL(if it lives on)- upper entry level/ lower mid-level sedan and coupe(330, 525, A4 3.0, A6 2.7, C320, E320, ES/GS300)
RL- mid level luxury(540, E500, A6 4.2, GS430)
new sedan (_L)-upper level luxury-( 7 series, A8, S class, LS430)

the new sedan will fill the missing link in acuras line up to be able to compete with BMW, MB, lexus, Audi. the IMA system would benefit acura greatly. new high end luxury sedan and IMA in their line up will bring acura its presitge."

 

Let's try and keep these posts short and sweet ok?

I say Acura is in perfect position going forward, with a successful sports coupe and sedan, touring sedan, luxury SUV and luxury sedan. Assuming the next RL is slightly higher from it's current brand positioning, the future looks bright. Acura doesn't need a $60k sedan and from the looks of it, the TL is a perfect blend of keeping existing customers happy and branching out to new ones.

 

D-rock makes a good point, though. Never thought of it, but probably the absence of a car like that does make it easier for people to think less of Acura.

The NSX could sort of take care of that (from a different direction, of course), except that nobody knows about it.

 

yea the NSX is up there and i agree not much people know about it. its a sports car/exotic since its that it doesn't scream luxury

 

...with the advent of the TSX and the dawning of the new TL, we can plainly see the face of new Acuras to come. I am very glad to see the direction Honda has taken for the styling of the new cars, particularly the front end design. I don't really care much for the current trend on some cars of sweeping the headlights back over the fender tops, and giving them bulldog like snouty grills. The TSX and TL have the cleanest looking headlight design on any car on the road today,IMHO. Some have said the grills are a bit too large, but I don't mind them. The lines of the two cars are sleek, very contemporary, and graceful, not contrived like a great many of companies offerings that seem to like using shock value to get folks to pay attention to their product line. I think the new Acura lineage will do very well in the marketplace, regarding the new TL's look, my teenage kids both said the current 3.2TL was an "old man's car", I showed them the shots of the ones taken in Seattle, and they both think it "rocks"...there's proof that Acura got it right, both cars have designs that transcend age groups, that's very smart on Honda's part...

Lorne Miller

 

You're right -- even only 2 responses really do tell the tale, when it's 2 responses like that. I mean it.

(Now if we could only DRIVE that darn TL. Or even just measure it.)

 

1) Give'em a NAMES - it is so hard to deal with current Acura names RSX,TSX,TL,RL,MDX and upcoming RDX - why Legend is not good? what's wrong with Integra?
Every time then you talk to someone why isn't much into Honda/Acura hype it is so hard to explain them that car you are talking about - it's just drives me nuts!

2) Give us Performance - not just a good-value-car

just my 0.2cents

 

Well, IMO, actually I don't have any problems with Acura's current naming nomenclature. I think it looks and sounds a lot more upscale. Reserve the names for Honda.

 

My 13 year old daughter felt the same way. She thought the 03 Type-S looked boring. She said the new 04 TL "looks cool".

 

There you have it 99TL and Gebbe, all's well in Acura-land.

 

The current cars (introduced late '90s and onward) are not the problem. The MDX? Great. RSX? Superb. TSX? Well, we know what I think... New TL should be a hit in it's intended market (mid-size, near lux). New RL will hopefully be as good in its class (5-series, E-class, GS, etc.). But some folks think that's not good enough, for some reason.

IMO, every problem (and perceived problem) mentioned so far could be solved by bringing back the Legend (and calling it "Legend") and positioning it above the RL. The '94-'95 Legend was the best car Acura ever made hands down (also my opinion). If they can capture that magic once again, all really will be well in Acura-land.

 

"My 13 year old daughter felt the same way. She thought the 03 Type-S looked boring. She said the new 04 TL "looks cool"."

That's great that she likes the new TL. But the more important question is whether she will like it when she's 16 and of driving age, or even more importantly, when she is 30 and a successful professional.

Acura is a luxury/performance car make. It should be appealing to those who can and will pay for the extra luxury and performance, and yes, looks. I've never complained about how the '04 TL looks. I'm just wondering if the feature set is taking Acura in the right direction.

I agree the Legend has to come back in name and form. But it shouldn't come out as the high end car above the RL. The Legend should be where the TL is positioned. That's where the Legend was in the first place. Just come out with a super TL and call it the "TL Legend" in coupe or sedan form (but not both..cost issues), and make it a limited edition model. 320-340 HP, AWD, stiffer suspension, fatter tires, manual or steering mounted paddle shifters (SMG), chock it full of everything and price it at around mid $40K and market it as a poor man's M3. I think Acura would be able to sell 15,000 to 20,000 a year to supplement sales of the "base" TL.

For the way upper end, you may want a another type of car, let's say the "EL" priced around the $60 K level. AWD, 350-360 HP would be ideal (that would put it above the 7 Series and Lexus in HP). It would have to be a V-8 (it has to be that at a min) or better yet, fuse two Honda V-6s together and get a V-12 at 450 HP). In anycase, R&D would have to go in. IMA is acceptable, but I don't know if you could call IMA true AWD.

I think this would be a shot of excitement for the Acura lineup.

Yes all dreams, but that's what boards are for....

 

Yes. And cool idea.

 

This is only half true. The Legend was comparable in size/power/features/etc. to today's TL, but at the time it was sold, it was a top-of-the-line car. I think if it comes back, it should be top-of-the-line once again and be a "halo" sedan like the NSX is the halo sports car.

Now, THAT is an interesting idea.

 

Is this thread set up to post what everybody's dreams are for Honda/Acura or what may actually happen for H/A?

Fact is the "Legend" in name is long departed...almost a decade. The car itself is the current RL. The RL is built off the Legend platform and it's the main reason why it's showing it's age. So what is it that you guys want to bring back? The name or the car? Or built a new car and name it the Legend? For example call the DNX the Legend? Is that what you are all talking about? It's not going to happen guys....the name is not coming back. They maked a corp decision back in 1995 rather it's right or wrong it's not for me to say. Now the car itself...the Legend. It was a FWD 3.2 V6 200HP... TypeII V6 for the GS/LS coupe trim 230HP...still a FWD. So the question is what is it that you guys want to bring back? It can't be the car...because it's just a FWD sedan. Acura has plenty of those.

Now back to where Honda should place Acura in the Luxury segment. Basically a V8 and a RWD platform...something Honda does not have in it's inventory. Believe me when I say this for almost 8 years the dealers in NA has been asking for those two options. We said we need it to compete with the other makes...Honda said we don't. Our R/D funds will not be spend on development of a V8, instead we want to spend it on IMA. You guys will ask why not spend it on both...because Honda is a stand alone company they do not have enough resources for R/D to do both.

Should Honda bring over some of their toys from Japan for the NA market...of course they should. They are in the process of expanding "FP products" in the states. "FP" (Factory Performance) = Mugen JDM. Why do you think we are dropping the Type S line. I agree we need to see some of these options over here for Acura...we need a RWD platform and we need a super car to replace the NSX.

 

Ooooookay! So I guess Acura is getting it all right and dreams and hopes are meant for sleep and not reality.

Well, nice weather out here.

 

 

No Acura is not getting it all right.

The weather is even better here in SoCal.

 

You know, first you say to take the criticism of Acura and the TL off of one of the FOUR '04 TL threads (as if four, or was it five, isn't enough already about the damn car). Then when the discussion goes to a more "appropriate" board, you seem to want to put the kabash on any discussions of what Acura should do.

Let me ask you a question. WHAT DO YOU WANT FROM ACURA???? WHAT DO YOU THINK IT SHOULD DO???? If your answer is nothing, then fine. You are an Acura dealer and you have an interest in saying that everything is hunky dory with Acura and it's cars....you're selling them after all.

But as you said, if you guys at Acura NA have been begging and pleading for cars that you can sell to compete with the other luxury makes, looks and sounds like you have been even more frustrated than I have been.

Hey, I'm just a buyer who can take his money anywhere he want's to, whether he's an Acura/Honda fan or not.

Now tell me what is it you would like to see from Honda, otherwise, we might as well talk about the weather.

 

No what are you talking about. Where in my post did I put a KABASH in the discussions. Some of you brought up some points...so I asked the same questions back. What is the POINT of bringing back the Legend. Is it the name you all want or the car? You asked which direction Honda has for Acura...I answered the question. So what is it that you want?

Did I try to sell you on how GREAT Honda is? Or how terrible the other Makers are? You are damn right you are a buyer and you can take your money anywhere you choose to. So what is your point?

 

I like the fact that Acura is not directly competing with the higher luxury auto makers. I am only 24, and do not have tons of money. I think 40K is too much to spend on a car, unless I have a few 100K. I think acura appeals to younger, technical people (I have an engineering degree) who have some sensible tastes while being cost saavy. So, IMO, Acura is perfect. I dont care about the 7 series, or A8 as I seriously doubt I will ever consider a car like that.

I am fine with Acura being better than average, but not the best.

 

Yes, I think they should bring back the name Legend. Make a new car and name is Legend. These are just our opinions - it's not like Honda Corp is going to do it.
Legend was a car way ahead of its times back then. You cannot compare TL or any other FWD Acura to Legend because technology has advanced in leaps and bounds over last 10 years so it would be unfair to Legend.
With Legend, Acura had created a magic and people identified with the name, more than Acura. I own a 94GS and I have to say that even today it is one of the best cars out there even today.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that if Acura could do it with Legend more 10 years back, I'm sure they can do it all over again.

 

The key is that they have to have the drive to do that and it could be debated that they do, or they are just resting on their lorals

Anyway, with the cars I have seen, or are about to come out, being the RSX, TSX, 04 TL, and 05 RL illustrations, are looking to make Acura the sport-lux brand, giving their cars more sport than ever (less the intergra's of old). They appear to be appealing to the more spirited of drivers and no longer the Buick drivers.

I remeber reading somewhere that this was Acura's new mission, to be more sport and less everyday.

While we all want more, Acura is doing what they can to deliver, under the conservative Honda umbrella. lets face it, their designs are more inspiring than the others, even Infinity (hate the G35 nose).

A few years ago, I would never have considered an Acura (last one was an 89 Legend, but even that was not my choice, too cushy), now, I have a deposit on one before any offical info is out.

sorry, I wont go on for fear of being too long.

 

This is funny, on one hand everyone is bowing down to the Legend (pun intended) like it was the "holy grail" for Acura. How ditching the nameplate (the car lives on in the RL) was the beginning of the end for Acura. On the other hand, people are lamenting there is no RWD in the lineup. How come the Legend is immune from the FWD bashing?

To answer the question what do I want? Well I think it would be wise for Honda to develop a V-8. They'll need it sooner or later if they are to try to market a real pick up truck in America. I'd love to see them develop a small RWD chassis. I'd prefer to see this done in the "Honda Way" ie. high power 4 cylinder with maybe IMA. I guess I'm looking for a sedan garagemate for our S2000s.

Many will argue that Honda has gotten too conservative lately. The tremendous volume that the Accord sells is almost proof of this fact. How can you sell 400,000 of a car without "diluting" the car for the masses? The Acura division has allowed Honda to market more "enthusiast" cars that don't need to sell in high volumes (TSX).

As Justin mentioned, Honda is a small company and independant. Porsche is another company that was founded on one mans vision and is still independant. They stay profitable by building a few models for a real long time with only small changes between years. Look how expensive those cars are! IMO if Honda were to invest in a RWD chassis, they'd have to insure they could spread the costs over a number of models, or else we'll have a VERY expensive car!

 

F@ck RWD - why you better tell us why we can not get AWD models in US????
Honda _right_now_ has AWD for Civic/Euro Accord (our TSX) and whole bunch of other cars is it some kind of political or may be religious question of bringing it to American market?
Could you by any chance call your Big Honda Boss and ask him this question?

 

I'm sure you forgot to add your "smilies" cause the tone of your message was surely sarcastic. Why don't you call the Big Honda Boss and ask him yourself? Seriously, I suspect some of the reason is that Honda is very conservative these days, they were "burned" by so called performance enthusiasts with the NSX tire fiasco, S2000 gear noise, RSX-S synchro noise when all these things are items that should be accepted in a performance car. Americans love to litigate and file class action suits for every little thing, and possibly AHM doesn't want to open an AWD can of worms. (MDX and CRV don't count here cause they're not marketed as performance cars, indeed their owners likely don't push the cars hard).

 

Sorry - I don't meant to be sarcastic at all
I just very curious

Speaking of AWD - why it is ok to sell AWD models in Europe then?
Why other manufacturers like VAG (VW/Audi), Fuji (Subaru) Mers, BMW having significantly more problems still rushing to bring more AWD model to American market?

PS
I would love to talk to Big Honda Boss but I doubt he wants to talk to me

 

What does "IMA" refer to?

nice discussions here. Anyone specialize in marketing and business strategy?

 

Well as Europeans are so proud to tell us, they are not Americans! As for the other manufacturers, (maybe not Subaru) their reputation for reliability may reflect the fondness for AWD. I have no facts to back this up, it's just a feeling. And don't worry, I doubt Colliver wants to talk to me either.

TMQ, IMA is Integrated Motor Assist. Its a way to add torque and power to a car by using electric motors to assist the gas engine. To date it has only been used in a fuel economy application, but Honda wants to expand this to a performance arena in the future.

 

This is just a question, but it has been surmised that because Honda is a stand alone company, they don't have the resources to R&D certain technology or products (V-8 engine, performance oriented AWD tech, other than IMA, etc. etc.).

Is Toyota a stand alone company or part of a giant conglomerate? They seemed to have a nice panoply of engines, chassis, etc. for both the Toyota and Lexus lines.

Conversely, isn't Honda an extremely diversified company making everything from cars and motorcycles to lawnmowers and electric power generators.

May be the problem is not that they don't have enough money for an R&D project, but because there is too many internal politics from the different divisions as to who gets the R&D budget.

I don't know the structure, but if I were to guess, may be the motorcycle guys are at the top of the order (because they can and will compete with the best manufacturers in that field) with cars coming second.

Ugh. I just wish the TL said WOW!!!! instead of just wow!

Other questions. Would the modification of an existing AWD platform (MDX) and tuning of an already excellent 6cyn engine above 270 HP have cost that much more money?

 

Gebbeth,

Toyota is such a huge company that it was once joked they could loan the Japanese gov't money. They have alliances with GM, Suzuki, Fujitsu Ten, and who knows what else.

Honda is a relatively small company that started after WWII (Toyota was in existance before). Honda spends a lot of money on R&D for all it's various divisions but the budget is so small compared to Toyota. Just look at the differences in their respective F-1 programs.

On the surface it does not look like there's too much that needs to be done to modify the MDX drivetrain for TL duty. If you dig deeper there are a lot of little things that crop up. I wonder about the durability of the VTM-4 system when hooked up the a manual tranny instead of the automatic. Surely the ability to dump the clutch at 5000 rpm is more wear and tear on a system that was designed to only see an automatic. Maybe our supplier for the VTM-4 cannot build more? I don't know the real answer, but it could be something as simple as they know they have a winner on their hands and don't see the need for these technologies ........ yet. Maybe in a few years to spice things up?

 

Honda Motor Company in our eyes is this big Auto maker with hugh yearly profits second only to Toyota in Japan. The problem is if you dig deeper Honda is a very distant second to Toyota...and that's only in Japan...they are no where near what Toyota is in World wide production. Like Colin said Toyota has shared ventures with other makers...where if the product fails Toyota will not have to bear the entire burden. Corolla=Geo Prizm<as an example. Again not to make excuses for Honda because they are a company that year in and year out makes a profit...Honda just do not have the finances to be able to R/D market as many projects as Toyota can. Some time ago but I do not remember when...the CEO of Honda said why a decision was make not to develop a V8 powerplant for Honda. The answer was it would take too long and too much money for Honda to be able to do this without hurting the R/D depts. main projects ...such as IMA tech. Honda said it would take 10+years to even be able to say they can break even if a V8 engine was marketed. Why not just share the expenses with another maker...they did before in the form of the SLX SUV...and look where it got them. Sometimes it's very easy for us to say well Honda should have done this or done that...but it really isn't all that simple.

I spend almost a year in marketing for Honda so some of what Honda has decided to do I have seen with my own eyes. It's not something I read in USAToday. Honda has not always gone the way we want nor have they always maked the right choices. It's just the margin of error for Honda is much smaller than Toyota.

 

Hey Justin, it's funny how nobody has a reply for why we bash Honda and FWD but still lament the passing of the Legend (which was FWD). Next year, we'll have been without the Legend for as many years as we actually sold the car!

 

I think some of it could be that at that time period a 200Hp/230Hp V6 is king. (I bet alot of people didn't even know there were two Hp ratings for the Legend). Now fast forwarding to the late 90s and the 21st century Honda is still doing 225hp/260Hp V6s and most everyone else has gone on to 350hp V8s. So it's really not the Legend they want back...but what the Legend at that time stood for...for Acura. They want the car that is suppose to have took Acura to an even higher place....not the RL which is basically the Legend.

This thread got started to talk about Honda and it's direction. Next thing I know Im told it's better to talk about the weather and Im trying to shut everybody up. Where are all the debaters? Have a point...make it. It's that simple.

 

I think Acura will be fine once they figure out and stick with one form of nomenclature. I mean you had the Legend, Vigor, Integra which pretty much became 3.2RL, 3.2TL, and the Integra stuck on for a while until changing to the RSX. Now they changed it again to RL, TL, RSX and the new TSX. Don't forget their other models: SLX, MDX, and the CL. They lost all uniformity IMO. So are the L-series sedans/coupes giving way to the new SX-series sedans/coupes/SUVs?

Anyhow, that issue right there, IMO, identifies what Honda has been doing wrong with the Acura brand. They are trying to hard to appeal to a certain market, yet decide to change where they want to go. First they wanted to sell more Hondas, then they decided to go luxo, now they figure go sport luxo. When they figure out where they belong, I'm sure we'll hear good things about Acuras and how they compete well against other luxo makes.

 

Colin&Justin,
Thanks for clearing things up.

I still disagree about AWD but since Honda says no to AWD I have no problems with that.

Now the only thing I can say let's wait and see how IMA R&D budget was spent
How big chances to see performance-oriented IMA models in next 2-3 years?
Assuming that new RL will have Honda beloved FWD setup will it also has IMA or this is too early for that?

Yeah too many questions.

Sepaking of IMA: Ford with Escape Hybrid 4x4 (2.3-liter four-cylinder internal combustion engine with a 65-kilowatt electric motor and a 28-kilowatt generator
) going to sale it in mid 2004 so Honda better hurry up
http://www.ford.com/en/vehicles/auto...capeHybrid.htm
http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehybrid/frameset.asp
http://www.fordvehicles.com/escapehy...ut/HEV101.html

 

There are all forms of risk in business, but I think all agree that risk is essential. The same company that, against the advice of almost every business person in Japan including the Japanese government, decided to get into the car business in the first place, the same company that took the risk of going into the "luxury" market as a Japanese make before anyone else, the car company that went to F1 and dominated the series with the McLarens and then to CART and dominated the series there all of a suddenly doesn't take the risk of making or developing an upmarket car with the design specs that today people associate with luxury? How much was the R&D it took to develop an F1 and CART and now IRL racing engine as oppossed to designing a V-8 or AWD chassis for heavens sake. It doesn't make sense. It's as if the company that was known as being a risk taker all of a sudden decided "ahhh nope."

I agree with you. I'm not advocating the return of the original Legend. I'm advocating the return of a car which embodied what the Legend was all about, a jump or leapfrog ahead and performance. The name "Legend" means something for the Honda enthusiasts, something that I think Honda may no longer be about. It's a shame a company would forego such goodwill. If you look at my posts, my dream or modern form of "Legend" is not the same 200/230 HP Legend that first came out. At that time, the original Legend was a godsend. I don't think the new TL represents that, but maybe the upcoming RL will...I don't know (for me, the new TL is a little more about playing it safe, thus in name and concept, is not the "Legend") Playing it safe is not going to get you a lot of places in a competitive world and playing it safe wasn't what the Legend was about when it came out. That's what I miss about the Honda I grew up with. I mean that old ugly a** Civic that first came out in the U.S., some of which are still running, the early Accords (which at one point in the late 80's or early 90's was the number 1 selling passenger car in the U.S.), the old Integras, the Legend, there's a heritage here of risk taking which can be carried forward that I'm not sure current management at Honda understands.

Again, my two cents.

 

Uhhh, the main reason people buy Acuras now are:
1. Cheaper
2. Value
3. Loaded and cheap.
4. Previous Honda/Acura owner

Acura does not really compete head on with anyone. Their most expensive car is a 45k RL you can buy for 8k off MSRP. The TL blends luxury/sport well but is an Accord with more stuff. The CL is gone. The TSX is 25-28k. The RSX is 18-24k. THose are not luxury car prices nor luxury cars. The MDX is their only model that tackles the competition head on and gives a great argument to buy.

Acura does well in being a step above Honda but they are a step below the luxury competition. There is nothing wrong with this strategy. All their cars are basically sub 40k cars. They have a LONG, LONG way to go.

Unfortunately, some (me included) hell many see the Acura Legend as the best sedan they ever made. This car is now 10+ years old and for their NEW cars being compared to a 10 year old car is not a good thing for the new cars.

It's why Lexus is still below BMW and Benz. No V-12 offered, no TT cars, no cars over 70k offered.

 

I wish I could link to the exact quote and who it was by (either the outgoing Honda president or the new one) but he said something to the effect that "Honda is not good at Luxury." I may be taking this out of context, but it does underscore some of the Honda corporate culture. It has alway been "Do more with Less" and they worship at the alter of effeciency.

To me this is opposed to the very concept of Luxury which is defined as: "Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort" How does a company like Honda embrace the "I don't need it, but I want it anyway" American buyer?

Personally, I think they should concentrate on sport and throw in enough luxury so they don't disappoint buyers.

 

Do you think Acura should shift then and become something closer to what Subaru (I think?) and Nissan are trying to become, definately on the side of sport (i.e., WRX, G35, Z, Maxima, Altima, new Legacy).

I'm not sure I would like that, but even if I did, I don't think FWD only and 270HP is gonna cut it that category.

Colin: quick question. How much do you think the failure of the CL and CL-S has traumatized Acura? I think they could really use a lux-sport coupe, but may be a two-seater. They have a good S2000 platform to build on.