I still remember 9 years ago when I was completely anti-Japanese. I hated their culture, even though I didn’t know much about it, their people (although I had never personally met an individual from Japan), and I disliked the fact that their economy was growing at supernatural rates throughout the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. But I especially disliked the fact that their cars only kept increasing in popularity in the United States and overseas, and the reality that more and more people were buying Japanese cars. After all, I’m an American and have always believed that Americans should only purchase American products. However, after 7 years of college and MBA combined and a lot of traveling and reading, I guess I’ve opened my mind a little and changed my way of thinking about Japanese cars and culture in general.
I once thought to myself: “What makes GM, Ford and Chrysler true American carmakers?” Well, it is true that GM goes well beyond the Chevrolet nameplate, although the latter is its best-selling brand. But after a research on the history of Chevrolet, I realized that its founder, Louis Chevrolet was born and raised in Switzerland and even after moving to the U.S., he disliked America’s culture and people, married a Swiss woman and dreamed of moving back to his native country. The Irish-born Henry Ford was also born and raised in Europe, so he was just as foreign as the founders of Toyota, Nissan and Honda. And Chrysler… yes, it was once a true American company. Too bad it was recently acquired by, not merged with, the German group Daimler-Benz. Chrysler is now so German that its shares are all owned by the Germans, the American board of directors was kicked out and replaced by German managers, and some of its cars are even made in Germany (i.e. Crossfire, a new Chrysler based on outdated Mercedes chassis). So it’s as if Chrysler had died and had its assets acquired by Daimler, who just decided to keep the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep nameplates for marketing purposes. In fact, DaimlerChrysler is now being sued by its former major shareholder, Kirk Kerkorian, who claims the Germans took over the former American firm by falsely alleging the acquisition was a merger of equals. Mr. Kerkorian, however, was also foreign, as he was born and raised in a Middle Eastern country.
That leads us to another point: in the 21st century, major firms are no longer owned by their founders, and the country of the company’s foundation doesn’t necessarily make that company a national of that country. That’s because of the system of corporations and the notion of stocks and shareholders. Ford and GM also have a large number of foreign shareholders. Proportionally, Americans also hold shares of automakers that originated in Japan.
Honestly, I consider most Japanese automakers American as well. Toyota, for instance, produces nearly half of its global output in the United States, generating jobs in America and revenues to both state and federal governments. In addition, Toyota is the world’s most profitable automaker (in 2003, for example, it made more profits than Ford, GM and Chrysler combined) with the largest capitalization rate. That translates into more cash to its shareholders and more investment in America. The same can be said of Honda, Nissan and the other Japanese carmakers.
Today, it’s hard to believe how many Americans still consider a Dodge Ram and a Chevy Silverado more American than a Nissan Titan or a Toyota Tundra, even though many Rams and Silverados are assembled in Mexico, whereas all Titans and Tundras are entirely built in America by Americans.
I recently replaced my 2000 Chevy Impala for a new Honda, which led me to the research and conclusion that Hondas (and Toyotas as well) are still superior to GM, Ford and Chrysler:

- First of all, Toyota and Honda keep gaining market share not only in the U.S., but in Europe as well, meaning that more people are buying their cars. We Americans are known to be the most informed consumers in the world, probably because we have greater access to the Internet, magazines and other sources of information. So, if more Americans buy “Japanese,” oftentimes paying more than they would for a GM, Ford or Chrysler (who push their cars towards the consumers through huge rebates and other incentives), that can be a strong indication of Toyota and Honda’s overall superiority. Well, let’s assume then that American consumers are all blind and actually biased towards “Japanese” cars. So what explains the momentum that Toyota, Honda and Nissan are gaining in Europe, Asia, South America and Australia? Not to mention Africa, where 1 out of every 3 cars sold is a Toyota. Even the United Nations is substituting Land Cruisers for Land Rovers.

- Second, if you read Car and Driver and Automobile magazines, you will notice that Toyotas, Hondas and Nissans usually rank among the best cars for overall performance. J.D. Power and Associates has been ranking Toyota and Lexus among the 1st in reliability and customer satisfaction surveys for many years. These cars receive high praises from European and Australian presses as well.

- Finally, even if all these sources were to be wrong, I have a decent knowledge about cars myself since I love them and have owned so many (although mostly Fords and Chevys). When I test drove the Toyotas/Hondas/Nissans, I could clearly tell their superiority in relation to the Fords/Chryslers/GMs I also drove. They seem to be much better made and to drive and handle better as well.

Long story short, I dumped my Chevy and bought a Honda. I am very satisfied for now, and don’t really plan on considering another Ford or Chevy again.

Well, I just want to remind you that what I’ve written is my personal opinion and doesn’t necessarily mean that it must be shared equally by all of us. However, I do know many Americans who choose to buy Fords, Chevys and Chryslers out of false knowledge and bias, and I am just proposing an alternative to that rationale.

 

an interesting read, but I think we all knew this considering the forum we're at, so real the question is, what Honda did you buy.

 

Oh, my bad xizor, I should've mentioned that. I purchased a 2004 Accord EX V6. Excellent car. I am very satisfied with it and don't even miss my Impala.
Just one question: is it supposed to handle just like the sporty Acura TSX, since both cars share the same platform?

 

They do not handle the same. The TSX is definitely the more adept handler. The Accord and TSX actually do not share a platform. They are derivatives of each other, but not the same. The Accord platform is used for the JDM Inspire, USDM Acura TL, and the Accord. This platform is longer and wider than the TSX/Euro Accord platform.

 

That's a interesting story/opinion. Enjoy you Accord.

 

People should buy what they like whether its a GM or Toyota, I don't see what you're sayin at all, bunch of drawn out bs.

 

Exactly, "heyitsme", people should buy whatever they like, whether it's GM, Toyota, etc. That's the point of the "bunch of drawn out bs" I just wrote.
I am just tired of automotive critics like those of the Detroit News who actually "cheer" for GM, Ford and Chrysler and talk of foreign automakers as if they were actually bad for America and the American people.
Have a good one, and thanks for your comment.

 

mississippiman1975, u wrote a lot...

I agree with 70% of what you said; however, I wouldn't say that Japanese cars are entirely superior to American car.

It's true that I'm in favor of Jap. cars because of their built quality, fuel efficiency, and sense of refinement. However, different buyers have unique needs and wants. That's why cars are manufactured with varies of features, at different price targeting a range of consumers. A happy purchase all comes down to personal needs and wants. Afterall buying a car is not much different from shopping for a bag of chips.

Today's automobile industry might not be as confined as you think. An Accord, from design to manufacturing to marketing, involves a global effort if you truely break down into details. Honda Japan headquarter couldn't have done it all by itself. As your Impola, it's probably not 100% American either.

Japanese car companies are certainly doing well in USA recently, most noticeably, Toyota. However, part of its effort contributing to such success, is the result of blending into American market. Having some of models designed and assembled in North America, Toyota are eating aways the domestic car market, by offering the familiar American taste with a titbit of Japanese delicacy. Across Altantic Ocean, a similar strategy is mandated and a different range of cars are offered. And back in Japan, where pretty much a complete range of models is being offered, those succeed in North America and Europe might not do so well in their home country.

It's not hard to see that Ford, GM and Chrysler are working hard to make changes. However, such changes involves redefining their market, employing new design strategy, updating their assembly lines, and moreover, requiring a deeper thinking whether such pricy efforts are worth to regain their marginal lost.

Anyways, just my thoughts. Being a biochemist arguing with a MBA, I might be totally wrong...

 

btw, no culture/country should be considered despicable (oops, a harsh word I use) or worthiless, until you get to know it well.

Just my second thought. Dont take it offensive.

 

oh yeah, i wouldn't shed a tear if Saudi Arabi disappeared from the face of the earth. Then again coorperate america culture is pretty despicable.

 

HelicobactEr Pylori:

Yeah, I guess I wrote a little too much. Well, I can see you're a biochemist that seems to know just as much about the auto industry as I do, or perhaps even more.
I understand your point, and you're right, Impalas are assembled in Ontario, Canada. Car makers are global players, and their goal is just like the goal of any other firm: to maximize shareholders' profits.
My point was that Ford, GM and Chrysler have been traditionally held as the only American automakers who are actually good for our country. I intended to show that that thought was naiive and that "foreign" carmakers also invest fortunes in the U.S., thus benefiting the American economy and its workforce directly.
I also agree with you that firms have their target markets- that niche of the total consumers to whom they design and target their product.
However, as for Ford, Chrysler and GM, their marketing and production strategies have not been well executed. That can be explained by their overall continuous reduction in market share throughout the past decades. When you mentioned that you prefer Japanese cars yourself because of overall quality- perhaps most Americans are perceiving that as well, including myself.
I don't know if Toyota makes the same types of mistakes in Japan as GM does overhere (think Pontiac Astek and several other poorly-buit cars including my former Impala). However, Toyota holds a 50% share of the Japanese market. In the U.S., GM, Ford and Chrysler together hold that great of a share.
I would like for the Big 3 to start producing decent cars again, like they used to 40 years ago.
Sorry I usually write too much. I did like your comment, though.

- John B.

 

No no. The real question is whether or not mississippiman eats SUSHI! YUM!!

 

:'( :'( :'(

 

Personally, I like the look of the Chevy Impala more than the 7th gen Accord, but you can't beat Honda quality and reliablity.

 

I agree with most of what you said. Japanese cars are just much better products than the domestics. Trucks are a different story. Ford and Chevy still make the best trucks. I know a lot of people who complain that buying imports hurts the domestic economy...and you know, that's probably the case. But my thought is: I'm not going to buy an inferior car so someone in Detroit can keep their job. If they actually build a car worth my hard earned money, I'll buy it but until then, I'm not going to reward companies with poor quality standards.

And that's my

 

Dear AcuraFan:
Thank you for your comment. But, what do you consider a foreign car? Would a Honda Accord or a Nissan Altima, for instance, be more foreign than the new Pontiac GTO or a Chevrolet Aveo? (Keep in mind the GTO is entirely built in Australia and the Aveo, in Korea, whereas the Accord is built in Marysville, Ohio, and the Altima, in Smyrna, Tennessee). In this case, given your car purchase is based on the sake of economic betterment, than you should consider a domestically-made Nissan, Honda, or Toyota, rather than an imported GM or Ford.
Major automakers can no longer be associated with its country of origin, since they are all global players. The Ford Explorer, for instance, is assembled in the U.S., but its transmission comes from France.
Have a good one!

 

Oh, about Ford and Chevy trucks being better than Nissan or Toyota trucks, I think that statement is no longer true.
The 2004 Nissan Titan was elected truck of the year and Car and Driver ranked it 1st in a test involving Chevy, Ford, Dodge, Toyota and Nissan full-size pick-up trucks. Ford came 2nd.
Also, keep in mind Toyota's Tundra is an old design that dates back from 1998. The 2006 Tundra will be introduced in about a year from now. Since Toyota usually builds cars to beat the competition, expect the new Tundra to be much bigger than the current truck and to be impressive. Just look at the full-size truck prototype and at how well Toyota is doing in the Nascar's Craftsman series. It's getting a huge fan-base here in the South.
Regards,
John B.

 

I guess I'm looking at their "home office". GM, Ford, and the Chrysler side of Daimler-Chrysler are all based in the US whereas Honda, Toyota, Nissan are based in Japan. My first Honda was a 97 Accord which was built in the US but it's still the product of a Japanese corporation, built to a Japanese corporation's standards and specifications, so it's a Japanese car (to me anyway).

 

Well, a couple things here...first off, C&D have always been import biased. The pecking order usually goes 1) German 2) Japanese 3)Domestic 4) Other. The next thing they like to do is grovel at the feet of any decent new vehicle. In a little while, the new Tundra will come out and C&D will be wetting its pants over that one.
There is no one source that is the definitive answer as to what's a "better" vehicle because people's tastes and needs are different. As an example, this year C&D rated the Titan the truck of the year...in the same year Motor Trend rated the new F-150 truck of the year.
I think the Tundra and the Titan, though nice trucks, will hit fast and hard then fade into the middle of the pack while trucks like the F-150 will be perennial favorites.
Also, the Tundra may have been built in 1998 but the previous gen F-150 was around since 1996 or so and was still a better truck than the 1998 Tundra. The new one will most likely compete better (just like the Titan) but Japanese are still playing catchup with the trucks.

We can look at this from a sales perspective too if you'd like(which I think you brought up in your original post). Look at the F-series truck. It's the best selling vehicle in the world...I think the Silverado is second...far more of these trucks get sold each year than Accords and Camrys.

Besides, the only Japanese truck worth it's salt is the Titan and the interior sucks (IMO).

 

That was a very good point, AcuraFan. I agree with you that Chevy, Ford and Dodge will always sell more full-size trucks than Nissan and Toyota.
GM, Ford and Dodge full-size pickups sell more than the Camry and the Accord because they sell more than any other car in America. Period. However, I think that comparing sales figures of trucks to those of cars is like comparing apples to oranges. The fact domestic trucks sell more than Camrys or Accords doesn't imply that GM, Ford and Dodge trucks are better than or preferred over Camrys or Accords. It does imply that more Americans prefer trucks to cars in general. In fact, domestic full-size trucks are the best-selling vehicles in the world because the U.S. market for vehicles is the largest in the world. Besides the U.S., Canada (and I guess Mexico), the demand for full-size pickups in other countries is very small.

But since we're talking about the U.S. vehicle market, you're totally right. U.S.-based corporations do offer some good products out there. When it comes to trucks, America will always outsell the competition because America is the only significant market for full-size pick-up trucks in the world, and I guess one has to be an American to really have the know-how of truck development.

Well, the debate of which car has better exterior/interior looks would be endless, since that's a true matter of opinion. I know people that feel attracted to the looks of the Kia Amanti or Pontiac Aztek, that look hideous to me. But again, that's a matter of opinion, and the world would probably be much worse if everyone shared the same preferences.

 

Also, I wouldn't say that Car and Driver is biased towards German and Japanese cars. If bias is what puts German/Japanese cars ahead of Americans and Koreans, then Automobile mag, J.D. Power, Consumer Reports, the majority of American consumers, Australian, and European presses would all be biased towads German and Japanese cars as well.
Well, I do respect your viewpoint and I'm not going to rule out the possibility of bias by all these magazines and consumers. I do think it's unlikely to happen though.

 

Apparently I am giving everyone the impression that I prefer imports to domestic cars.
Originally, I just intended to show a reason for Americans to consider cars manufactured by foreign corporations as well. I attempted to prove that foreign automakers may not necessarily hurt our domestic economy, as they also invest large sums of money in this country and employs millions of Americans, directly or indirectly.
I used to buy only GMs or Fords out of ignorance that all automakers exept for the Big 3 hurt our economy.
And I further listed the reasons that lead me to purchase a Honda product, not the reasons that show that the Japanese/Germans are the only cars worth considering.
I'll always be a Pontiac fan, though, and the new GTO will kill the M5.

 

Well, I didn't mean to get into a debate with you about anything. I do agree with a majority of what you're saying. I'm glad you saw the light and started taking Japanese cars seriously. Welcome aboard.

Yes, the GTO will kill the M5...if by kill you mean the M5 will die laughing.

 

0-60 (from C&D, since we seem to like them so much)
GTO: 5.3 sec
M5: 4.9 sec

Let's not even get into slalom speeds...

 

Pretty good arguments here. I think overall the key is to benefit the consumers, companies must compete and build high quality products.

The fact that the Detroit automakers use "domestic" as a reason for consumers to buy is anti-competition and will only hurt themselves. This can happen in many other countries too, where free market competition is curbed by the sake of patriotism. People end up paying extra for inferior products, and only few (the weathy owners, probably from a different country) profit.

 

With a fertility rate of 1.5 and 1.8, respectively, both the Germans and the French WILL disappear from the earth, in just a twinkling of the geological eye.

But as to Honda, founder Soichiro Honda paid attention to QC guru W. Edwards Deming while Detroit was sleeping. Honda's stock is traded on the New York Stock Exchange, and I believe the bulk of the corporate profits come from North America. Having the corporation HQ'd in Japan serves the same purpose as incorporating it in Bermuda, avoid all the crap from US politicians pandering to voters who don't know Economics 101 from Formula 401.

 

Acurafan,

You're so right here.....

Funny enough is that the Euro Accord/TSX is actually especially designed for the European market to compete more with the European domestic models like Audi S4/Volvo S60/VW passat ect..
Even so it seems to be that the Jap cars are not so much appreciated in Europe as it is in the US. :'(
With I regret of course.
Or actually not……., makes my car more unique.

And about the M5………it’s also a great family car.
But I prefer the M6 which is comming out soon.

 

Totally have to agree... I don't have to see my car 20 times on my way to work. Can't keep count of the amount of Passat's on the road, but very very few Accords/TSXes... By entering a diesel powered Accord Honda are trying to get a piece of the action in the targetted segment. Curious of how it will turn out... Most Accords I see are diesel powered...

 

technically, Honda's ADRs are what are traded on the NYSE, so the "price" is reflective of the company's performance in all markets as well as its general management. if the yen were stronger in comparison to the U.S. dollar, the price would actually be higher than what it is now, but despite the currency weakness, the company's value has held decently.

i can tell you that having some exposure to HMC through my past work experiences, the personnel to whom i've spoken (and they were responsible for overseeing some of the technical aspects of the business) take a lot of pride in R & D and building a quality product. i'd also had exposure to personnel from all of the "Big Three" and did not get the same impression at all.

 

I think what people like to call biased in the magazines is actually pretty close to reality. Bmw had been on top for a while because they were the best. Recently though they have begun to fall, like the 5-series comparo, because the market has caught up. Same goes for other brands like Cadillac, they hadn't done anything exciting in years, yet they have finally arrived and it can be seen in cars like the srx coming in 1st in a recent comparo, etc.

I don't see any reason why a magazine wouldn't jump at the new 06Tundra, it should be a pretty amazing vehicle, with a hybrid version no less.

Different mags have always had different results, but as far as the Titan, I remember it won a Motortrend comparo against the F-150 but lost the Motortrend truck of the year, because in truck of the year, configurability was included-the number of versions a person can get the truck in. Sure which truck is best varies with what each person needs, but I think its safe to say the Titan is right up there with the best as far as the two models Nissan has. And the interior sucks? Not compared to the other trucks in its segment.

As far as the F-150 still being best when the 1st tundra was released, again it depends on how much truck you need. The Tundra brought something very important to the truck market and that was crash safety. I remember those comparos between the Tundra and f-150, and the Ford crumbled up like a tin can, including the passenger compartment and that pushed Ford to take safety seriously on the new f-series. The quality of the Tundra is also a nice addition to the truck market.

Best selling really isn't a safe place anymore, American family sedans used to be best selling also. I don't think the truck market is safe at all if other companies like Toyota are willing to build a better product.

 

The one thing you all seem to be missing about trucks is that the Japanese trucks are still lacking in tow and payload.

I love the Titan, and if I were in the market for a truck, I would probably buy one. BUT The new Super Dutys from Ford will be able to pull 12,300 or even 15,000 lbs with a dual rear wheel setup.

Titan, the biggest Japanese truck pulls 9500 lbs.

The Japanese also need to get into Diesel if they want a market share, have you ever tried to keep the tank on a half ton+ truck full? It's a costly endeavor, even with the Diesel option, but with that, you have the same fuel costs with at LEAST twice the fuel economy, if not more, and more power to show for it to boot.

Granted Diesel is not available in the half ton class, but you see the point I am trying to make here.

 

I hear that. The Accord was the best selling sedan for years...then Camry passed it and hasn't looked back since. But I think in the case of the F-150, it will be quite a long time before an import passes it up. Import trucks are still a niche market while the F-150 still sells a couple hundred thousand more copies than most if its competition (I can't remember where the Silverado is on the list though).

 

Why is this thread in Auto News? Moving to Car Talk.

 

It took you 7 yrs of higher education, traveling and reading for you realize you "were" racist?

Also w/ 7 yrs of higher education you would think that you should have come up w/ a better title to this thread then "I think I'm turning Japanese"

 

That title does seem a bit peculiar.

Also, I was pretty impressed by the almost non-use of the term "jap". I know when most people use it they're using it in a non-racist and completely innocent manner. However, for someone of Japanese ancestry that term is one of the most despicable and despised words one can hear. In a nutshell, for all of you with African-American backgrounds, the "j-word" is like the "n-word".

 

People are sure getting worked up about this. . .

I think all he was trying to say is buy a car based on it's perceived value rather than based on it's supposed nationality (perceived or other).

He's opened his mind, I think it takes a lot of guts to admit something like his past bias against all things Japanese. At least he's willing to let himself change, that's ALOT better than many people, some people will stick with their silly ideas/ideals no matter what and fight change with every bit of their existence.

I agree w/Gavin that most people don't use the j-word as something intentionally malicious and I’m glad that mississippiman didn’t use it (think that helps to show that he’s grown). I’m not Japanese but even I cringe when I hear people using it.

And I do agree that the title seems odd, not quite PC. But maybe he was just making a masturbation reference. :P

 

Welcome to the world of globalization, Mississippiman. I think Daimler Benz ownership is good for the Chrysler marque. If the Germans didn't put in their .02 worth of engineering and quality know-how into the Crossfire, the Pacifica and the latest 300 , Chrysler would probably be asking uncle Sam for another bailout. Did you know that Ford owns Volvo, GM owns SAAB, Rolls Royce is owned by BMW? Globalization has resulted in Ford adopting the Volvo platform in their new Freestyle SUV crossover, and that car should hit the showrooms this September.

Older Volvo 40 turbo models were equipped with the 1.9L Mitsubishi engine, and the MINI Cooper I drive is equipped with a Brazilian-built Tritec engine jointly developed by Chrysler and BMW. And in 2006, the MINI is going to be outfitted with a Peugeot engine (oh Lord)

Glad to see your attitudes have widened to accept non-Made-in-USA cars too.

 

Since we're on the topic of globalization...here's how the automakers stand right now...

GM brands are composed of the following:
Pontiac
Cadillac
GMC
Buick
Chevrolet
Opel
Vauxhall
Saab
Daewoo
Saturn
Hummer
Partial stake in Subaru
Partnership with Toyota

Ford is composed of the following:
Ford
Mercury
Lincoln
Jaguar
Aston Martin
Volvo
Land Rover
Partial stake in Mazda

DaimlerChrysler has the following brands:
Mercedes Benz
Maybach
Chrysler
Dodge
Jeep
Smart
Partial stake in Mitsubishi
Strategic Partnership with Hyundai

VW-Audi group control the following:
Volkswagen
Audi
Seat
Skoda
Lamborghini
Bentley
Bugatti
Partnership with Porsche

Fiat Autogroup control the following:
Fiat
Control of Ferrari and Maserati

BMW has the following:
BMW
Mini
Rolls Royce

Renault controls the following:
Renault
Nissan
Infiniti
Dacia

Hyundai also controls Kia.

Currently independent automakers are BMW, Porsche, Toyota, Honda, and a handful of other marks.

 

Great research. It rally opens our eyes to the fact that business investment knows no borders.