Help Deciding On New Car! TSX vs...
10-04-2005 | 04:24 PM
#1
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Help Deciding On New Car! TSX vs...
i'll try to make this brief:
i'm 23, just graduated from college. working full time, mostly to be able to get a nice car.
i never considered a pontiac, until this year. i liked both the solstice and the G6, as i believe they both look really "cool".
anyway, the solstice is impractical b/c it's a 2 seater, so these are the 3 cars i'm thinking about. I was to end up paying less than $26,500 total (including tax!).
'06 G6 GTP Coupe: premium package 2 (sunroof, wheels, 6-cd) + leather
i can get it for 700 off of the invoice plus 1000 rebate.. making the grand total near $26,300
'05 TSX: you all know the deal with the tsx. it's with out navi.
i'm not sure on the price, but from what i understand it should be near 26,500 total (including tax)
'06 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT: fast as hell, looks great. but rear seats probably too small.
i think the eclipse would end up being the most expensive of the bunch.. but assuming i could get it for 26,500, i'll put it in the list of consideration.
any other nice car in this range (mazda6, rx8, etc)...
i really love cars that can accelerate quickly.. but looks are important too. i really like sporty looking cars (350z, new eclipse, corvettes etc), BUT i also like sophisticated looking cars (tsx, tl, rl, beemers, clks)...
and just in case anyone is wondering, i would consider the GTP a good mixture of both. (sporty and sophisticated).. if only it wasn't a d*mn pontiac.. hahaha...
anyway, any and all opinions would be appreciated!
i'm 23, just graduated from college. working full time, mostly to be able to get a nice car.
i never considered a pontiac, until this year. i liked both the solstice and the G6, as i believe they both look really "cool".
anyway, the solstice is impractical b/c it's a 2 seater, so these are the 3 cars i'm thinking about. I was to end up paying less than $26,500 total (including tax!).
'06 G6 GTP Coupe: premium package 2 (sunroof, wheels, 6-cd) + leather
i can get it for 700 off of the invoice plus 1000 rebate.. making the grand total near $26,300
'05 TSX: you all know the deal with the tsx. it's with out navi.
i'm not sure on the price, but from what i understand it should be near 26,500 total (including tax)
'06 Mitsubishi Eclipse GT: fast as hell, looks great. but rear seats probably too small.
i think the eclipse would end up being the most expensive of the bunch.. but assuming i could get it for 26,500, i'll put it in the list of consideration.
any other nice car in this range (mazda6, rx8, etc)...
i really love cars that can accelerate quickly.. but looks are important too. i really like sporty looking cars (350z, new eclipse, corvettes etc), BUT i also like sophisticated looking cars (tsx, tl, rl, beemers, clks)...
and just in case anyone is wondering, i would consider the GTP a good mixture of both. (sporty and sophisticated).. if only it wasn't a d*mn pontiac.. hahaha...
anyway, any and all opinions would be appreciated!
10-04-2005 | 05:41 PM
#2
Team Owner
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 20,558
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From: Long Beach, CA
Originally Posted by the_Osk
i really love cars that can accelerate quickly.. but looks are important too. i really like sporty looking cars (350z, new eclipse, corvettes etc), BUT i also like sophisticated looking cars (tsx, tl, rl, beemers, clks)...
p:
p:
10-04-2005 | 05:56 PM
#3
you want sophiscated and power..... get a C55 or S4 then....
if you want both power and sophiscated look...... they don't come cheap, it's mostly either luxury or power...... but the G35 ain't bad.... good mix of the two~
if you want both power and sophiscated look...... they don't come cheap, it's mostly either luxury or power...... but the G35 ain't bad.... good mix of the two~
10-04-2005 | 07:19 PM
#5
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Originally Posted by Benz_05_TSX
you want sophiscated and power..... get a C55 or S4 then....
if you want both power and sophiscated look...... they don't come cheap, it's mostly either luxury or power...... but the G35 ain't bad.... good mix of the two~
if you want both power and sophiscated look...... they don't come cheap, it's mostly either luxury or power...... but the G35 ain't bad.... good mix of the two~
for that price, i'm thinking the G6 GTP, the TSX, the eclipse GT, or possibly a mazda (RX8, Mazda6, etc). I like altima's but we already own two. The civic SI is a possibility, but I would like something more adult.
10-04-2005 | 07:53 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2005
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From: Georgia
I've always thought Pontiacs looked "cool", but only when new. Often times, they appear dated a few years down the road. Although, I have to say that the G6 is much cleaner than their usual designs. I haven't driven it or most of the others mentioned here.
For the younger crowd, or for a lot less money than the TSX, check out the tC, or Mazda 3, as well as the Civics.
I think you can find a lot of cars that are either faster, or more expensive, or more something than the TSX, but what you'll find with the TSX is a good balance. It has plenty of power, good handling, good looks, and a ton of features as standard. (Watch those options packages!)
If I could have gotten past the styling, I'd have looked more closely at the Legacy.. Our other car is a Subie, and it's really fast.
By the way, to get the most out of the power of the TSX (or many cars) you might consider a manual-shift, if you aren't already.
For the younger crowd, or for a lot less money than the TSX, check out the tC, or Mazda 3, as well as the Civics.
I think you can find a lot of cars that are either faster, or more expensive, or more something than the TSX, but what you'll find with the TSX is a good balance. It has plenty of power, good handling, good looks, and a ton of features as standard. (Watch those options packages!)
If I could have gotten past the styling, I'd have looked more closely at the Legacy.. Our other car is a Subie, and it's really fast.
By the way, to get the most out of the power of the TSX (or many cars) you might consider a manual-shift, if you aren't already.
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10-04-2005 | 08:15 PM
#10
Luke 1:37
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,425
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From: Boston, MA
Originally Posted by kenzo
Legacy GT
I think someone was posting in Off Topic stating that you can get a 05 Legacy GT for like $26K. Now that's definitely a better car than the Pontiac (depreciate BIG TIME and you know its a Pontiac right???) and Eclipse (new design doesn't do anything for me) IMO. I would go 05 Legacy GT or 05 TSX.
10-04-2005 | 08:37 PM
#11
Pro
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 694
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From: Blacksburg, VA
If you are going to get a pontiac, you might as well get the big dog, the GTO. You can pick up a lightly used 350 HP version for sub $25k, or a new 400 HP one for around $30k. It supposedly has a great interior to go with its gobs of power.
If you want 4 doors, I second the Legacy GT. Fast, AWD, decent interior, Subie reliability and resale value: what's not to like? It looks better than a G6
If you want 4 doors, I second the Legacy GT. Fast, AWD, decent interior, Subie reliability and resale value: what's not to like? It looks better than a G6
10-04-2005 | 08:54 PM
#12
Registered Abuser
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 438
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From: Massachusetts
It seems you are a little confused about the type of car you want. An Eclipse is not at all like a TSX. You say you like both types of cars (Acuras, BMWs, etc) and sports cars (RX-8, Eclipse, etc). I'd say decide which type you really want first, then go from there.
One point though - I'm with jlukja - the TSX is not a fast car so if you buy it expecting head snapping acceleration, you will be disappointed. Its greatest virtues lie elsewhere.
One point though - I'm with jlukja - the TSX is not a fast car so if you buy it expecting head snapping acceleration, you will be disappointed. Its greatest virtues lie elsewhere.
10-04-2005 | 09:16 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 761
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From: Georgia
I test drove both coupes and sedans. I had some preferences, but I had to try to weigh them. I didn't want to make a blanket "only sedans" rule, if a coupe otherwise seemed like a good fit. Just like I didn't want to look for just the "fastest" car. Or just the "most luxurious". All of these things factored in. I probably would have looked at an RX-8 if it was a tad cheaper. I really liked a less-expensive coupe, and could have gone that route if I wanted to save a few bucks.
They may not be the same, but they still may be worth considering.
I dunno why everyone keeps downplaying the TSX's speed. I find that it's plenty fast. Just don't go drag racing Rustangs and you'll be fine.
But seriously, this is one of those things that you should find out ahead of time and during a test drive, so by all means, rule it out if it does not meet your standards. But, how fast do you need to go anyway?
They may not be the same, but they still may be worth considering.
I dunno why everyone keeps downplaying the TSX's speed. I find that it's plenty fast. Just don't go drag racing Rustangs and you'll be fine.
But seriously, this is one of those things that you should find out ahead of time and during a test drive, so by all means, rule it out if it does not meet your standards. But, how fast do you need to go anyway?
10-04-2005 | 09:34 PM
#14
Racer
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 432
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From: San Francisco, CA
I came from an Eclipse and never looked back. The only thing I miss about the car is the car stereo that I had custom-made for it. That's it. Granted the Eclipse has had some upgrades since my 1998, but it wasn't a reliable car. Was in the shop quite a bit, and not for rattles. For engines asploding. Along with the asploding engine, the check engine light was almost always on. (Some solenoid problem they couldn't fix after about 5 trips to the dealership)
The TSX is the most practical and reliable of that bunch I'd say. Also, take into consideration gas mileage since gas prices are going up like mad. I don't know the fuel efficiency of the Pontiac but I guarantee it's nowhere near the TSX. I'd also say the refinement of the TSX is nowhere near matched in that set of cars you've listed as well (or any other American car for that matter).
If you can live with not owning a drag racing car (though it handles like a dream), I can't think of any better option than the TSX for the money.
The TSX is the most practical and reliable of that bunch I'd say. Also, take into consideration gas mileage since gas prices are going up like mad. I don't know the fuel efficiency of the Pontiac but I guarantee it's nowhere near the TSX. I'd also say the refinement of the TSX is nowhere near matched in that set of cars you've listed as well (or any other American car for that matter).
If you can live with not owning a drag racing car (though it handles like a dream), I can't think of any better option than the TSX for the money.
10-05-2005 | 12:34 AM
#15
C'mon, man! Row yer own.
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From: WDMIA
Bear in mind, you're talking (mostly) to TSX owners who have gone through a lot of the same comparisons you're making now and decided on the TSX. I'll add my vote, the TSX is just so wonderful to drive that I found other cars I drove (Altima 3.5, G35, Mazda6, Volvo S60) to be less wonderful in some respect I couldn't overlook. I've always been a straight line acceleration guy -- never met a big block Chevy that didn't need a taller cam -- so maybe I'm just tired of roaring away from stoplights faster than everybody else. The TSX just does everything beautifully, but not any one thing better than everything else (except reliability and fit-and-finish). So you'll be out-skid padded by this model, or lose a drag race to that one, or not have the cache of this one over here, but unless someone shows up driving all three at once, they don't have what the TSX has -- wonderful balance.
If you're a boob man, though, go for the one with the biggest boobs.
If you're a boob man, though, go for the one with the biggest boobs.
10-05-2005 | 07:13 AM
#17
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From: Milwaukee, WI
Originally Posted by theElio
I came from an Eclipse and never looked back. The only thing I miss about the car is the car stereo that I had custom-made for it. That's it. Granted the Eclipse has had some upgrades since my 1998, but it wasn't a reliable car. Was in the shop quite a bit, and not for rattles. For engines asploding. Along with the asploding engine, the check engine light was almost always on. (Some solenoid problem they couldn't fix after about 5 trips to the dealership)
The TSX is the most practical and reliable of that bunch I'd say. Also, take into consideration gas mileage since gas prices are going up like mad. I don't know the fuel efficiency of the Pontiac but I guarantee it's nowhere near the TSX. I'd also say the refinement of the TSX is nowhere near matched in that set of cars you've listed as well (or any other American car for that matter).
If you can live with not owning a drag racing car (though it handles like a dream), I can't think of any better option than the TSX for the money.
The TSX is the most practical and reliable of that bunch I'd say. Also, take into consideration gas mileage since gas prices are going up like mad. I don't know the fuel efficiency of the Pontiac but I guarantee it's nowhere near the TSX. I'd also say the refinement of the TSX is nowhere near matched in that set of cars you've listed as well (or any other American car for that matter).
If you can live with not owning a drag racing car (though it handles like a dream), I can't think of any better option than the TSX for the money.
I also came from Eclipse, I do love the stero (with aux-in) and the hatch back. But the car is so dame small at the back that you cannot seat anyone (other than a child) The transmission blown on me after 4 years and there is a lot of maintances here and there.
TSX is fun and at the same time more practical. I can have fun driving but I can also seat 4 comfortly. The 60/40 seat also give me a good cargo space (although not as good as the hatch back.
I guess I will buy another car if I want more ricer look... but TSX will definitly be my day to day commute of choice.
10-05-2005 | 11:35 AM
#18
Have camera, will travel
Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Federal Way, WA
Originally Posted by peter_bigblock
Bear in mind, you're talking (mostly) to TSX owners who have gone through a lot of the same comparisons you're making now and decided on the TSX. I'll add my vote, the TSX is just so wonderful to drive that I found other cars I drove (Altima 3.5, G35, Mazda6, Volvo S60) to be less wonderful in some respect I couldn't overlook. I've always been a straight line acceleration guy -- never met a big block Chevy that didn't need a taller cam -- so maybe I'm just tired of roaring away from stoplights faster than everybody else. The TSX just does everything beautifully, but not any one thing better than everything else (except reliability and fit-and-finish). So you'll be out-skid padded by this model, or lose a drag race to that one, or not have the cache of this one over here, but unless someone shows up driving all three at once, they don't have what the TSX has -- wonderful balance.
If you're a boob man, though, go for the one with the biggest boobs.
If you're a boob man, though, go for the one with the biggest boobs.
10-05-2005 | 02:12 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by waTSX
Nicely stated.
this is kind of what I was thinking when I made a list of pros and cons for the GTP and the TSX. I'm going to test drive the eclipse, but i don't think it's practical enough. But i must say, for my personal taste, the eclipse looks the coolest of the bunch.
i just got an email from mazda giving me around invoice plus $2000 in rebates for and '05 mazda6. it has about the same HP as the tsx.. it will probably be faster (v6).. but i like the looks and expect the handling to be better on the tsx. so i don't even think i'll test drive the mazda6.
right now i think it's simply between the TSX and the GTP. acceleration isn't the most important thing to me.. but i do appreciate good acceleration. if the TSX's is suffice, then (considering everything else is has better than the pontiac) i'll probably get the TSX. we'll see.. i think it'll be a really tough decision. either way, i should be driving with a huge grin from then on.
(legacy? the subaru? hmmm.. i'll look into it... i always wanted a WRX)
10-05-2005 | 02:17 PM
#20
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i have another quick question.
are there some relatively inexpensive mods i can do to the '05 tsx to make it faster (and not compromise the handling)?
the mpg and the extra year in warrantly and the 4 doors vs 2 doors is really making me consider the tsx. but the gtp looks so cool (to me) and was fast as hell. i even had a dream about driving the gtp.. but last night i was trying to find a TSX to show my g/f and see what she thought... Man, i wish i was rich so i could get them both.
are there some relatively inexpensive mods i can do to the '05 tsx to make it faster (and not compromise the handling)?
the mpg and the extra year in warrantly and the 4 doors vs 2 doors is really making me consider the tsx. but the gtp looks so cool (to me) and was fast as hell. i even had a dream about driving the gtp.. but last night i was trying to find a TSX to show my g/f and see what she thought... Man, i wish i was rich so i could get them both.
10-05-2005 | 03:35 PM
#22
Racer
Joined: May 2005
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From: San Francisco, CA
Mods to make it go faster:
Cold Air Intake: 210 (louder but faster) or Icebox: 160
Header: 300 (faster) or 510 (built-to-last)
Hondata reflash: 600 (available for 04, and being developed for 05) - The reflash is the best mod currently for our engine but 05ers are waiting patiently
Exhaust doesn't help that much for power and is $$$ (700+)
Catalytic Converter upgrade: 300 (not sure about CARB legal yet but good gains)
Handling:
Rear Sway Bar: 100-125 (great upgrade)
Springs & Shocks: 400+
A-Spec: 600
Coilovers: 700+
New Tires: 400+
Lighter rims: 1000+
Cold Air Intake: 210 (louder but faster) or Icebox: 160
Header: 300 (faster) or 510 (built-to-last)
Hondata reflash: 600 (available for 04, and being developed for 05) - The reflash is the best mod currently for our engine but 05ers are waiting patiently
Exhaust doesn't help that much for power and is $$$ (700+)
Catalytic Converter upgrade: 300 (not sure about CARB legal yet but good gains)
Handling:
Rear Sway Bar: 100-125 (great upgrade)
Springs & Shocks: 400+
A-Spec: 600
Coilovers: 700+
New Tires: 400+
Lighter rims: 1000+
10-05-2005 | 05:22 PM
#23
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thanks elio!
i'm thinking it would be cheaper to improve the handling on the GTP to get it close to the TSXs, compared to getting the TSX at the power of the GTP. but i'm no expert on mods, so I could be wrong.
well, thursday night is my appointment with the tsx. then i'll be able to get a better feel for the TSX.
i'm thinking it would be cheaper to improve the handling on the GTP to get it close to the TSXs, compared to getting the TSX at the power of the GTP. but i'm no expert on mods, so I could be wrong.
well, thursday night is my appointment with the tsx. then i'll be able to get a better feel for the TSX.
10-05-2005 | 06:02 PM
#24
There's ALOT of good info here..... but as you have mentioned.... i think the TSX or G6 is the best choices (even though i don't like domestic).... but others like eclipse or Mazda... i would choose TSX over them.... and i also chose TSX over ALitma because of the styling..... TSX looks so much better than Altima.....haha~
10-05-2005 | 06:15 PM
#25
Racer
Joined: May 2005
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From: San Francisco, CA
With the stock GTP pulling 240 hp with a 3.9L V6, the TSX won't get that high with all of those mods listed above. If there's a reliable turbo or supercharger kit that comes out, the TSX engine will be hella fast, but there isn't one yet. Once again, if speed is ultimately what matters to you, the TSX won't be as fast as the GTP. The TSX is really an all-around balanced car. The GTP looks like it has speed and price on the TSX. The GTP is running an engine with 62.5% more displacement than the TSX, so it seems to be less efficient. I also worry about the mileage. 26mpg on the highway for the GTP. I average 26mpg with regular 50/50 city/highway driving. I'm not sure where you live, but here in California, premium is going for 3.25+ a gallon; so be sure to take into account future gas costs.
The TSX has handling, luxury and refinement, mileage, looks, and very importantly, reliability. To me, those outweigh speed and price, but to each their own.
I fell in love with the TSX the moment I sat in the cockpit. It impresses me at every turn, pardon the pun.
The TSX has handling, luxury and refinement, mileage, looks, and very importantly, reliability. To me, those outweigh speed and price, but to each their own.
I fell in love with the TSX the moment I sat in the cockpit. It impresses me at every turn, pardon the pun.
10-05-2005 | 06:21 PM
#26
Racer
Joined: May 2005
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From: San Francisco, CA
Here's a link to cost and power gains.
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25877
Also, here's research done by Hondata with power gains that result from the reflash, intake, header, etc...
http://www.hondata.com/reflash_tsx.html
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25877
Also, here's research done by Hondata with power gains that result from the reflash, intake, header, etc...
http://www.hondata.com/reflash_tsx.html
10-05-2005 | 11:28 PM
#27
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 111
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From: Pacific Grove, California
I checked out the Legacy GT Limited wagon over the weekend.Yes a wagon...:-)it fits my lifestyle. I have plans for an 06 TSX also but this car was soooooo nice,not really big either. They had the color and it was the Limited w/leather etc. I could have bought the car right there but it just isn't an Acura. Oh....I know Subies are reliable. I guess I'll just have to see an 06 TSx in person before any decision is made.
10-06-2005 | 04:49 PM
#28
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since i'm planning on keeping this car for 5+ years, i'm thinking to myself..
what will i care more about in 5 years? the exterior and speed? or the interior and handling?
i think i'd prefer the latter.. so if everything goes well (pricing, test drive), i'll be getting the TSX! i just saw the interior online.. it makes the GTP look like crap. (although i still like the GTP's exterior.. but it's plastic! wtf).
what will i care more about in 5 years? the exterior and speed? or the interior and handling?
i think i'd prefer the latter.. so if everything goes well (pricing, test drive), i'll be getting the TSX! i just saw the interior online.. it makes the GTP look like crap. (although i still like the GTP's exterior.. but it's plastic! wtf).
10-06-2005 | 05:47 PM
#29
Intermediate
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 29
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Originally Posted by the_Osk
since i'm planning on keeping this car for 5+ years, i'm thinking to myself..
what will i care more about in 5 years? the exterior and speed? or the interior and handling?
i think i'd prefer the latter.. so if everything goes well (pricing, test drive), i'll be getting the TSX! i just saw the interior online.. it makes the GTP look like crap. (although i still like the GTP's exterior.. but it's plastic! wtf).
what will i care more about in 5 years? the exterior and speed? or the interior and handling?
i think i'd prefer the latter.. so if everything goes well (pricing, test drive), i'll be getting the TSX! i just saw the interior online.. it makes the GTP look like crap. (although i still like the GTP's exterior.. but it's plastic! wtf).
10-06-2005 | 06:10 PM
#30
Drifting
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 3,339
Likes: 8
From: 905
i thought this article was interesting. i'd still be reluctant to buy domestic though...
The best-made cars: perception and reality
By Jeremy Cato
Chris Hay isn't shy about pointing out that for the last five years the Canadian-built Chevrolet Impala has outscored Toyota's Camry in initial quality. Five straight years.
"I doubt most Canadians know that," says Hay, who has a reason for bringing this to everyone's attention - he's the Assistant Marketing Manager for the Impala, which for 2006 is getting "1,000 refinements and a return of the small block V8 engine."
2006 chevrolet Impala LT. Click image to enlarge Still, there is no denying that the Impala was beaten only by its Buick Cousin, the Century, in the most recent J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study (IQS) of owner-reported problems in the first 90 days. Another GM cousin, the Pontiac Grand Prix, was a runner-up in the Premium Midsize Car class of the 2005 study.
Three midsize GM models and not a Japanese import in sight. Yet common wisdom suggests the Japanese, led by Toyota, have completely cornered the market on quality, even though Detroit-based automakers and others have closed the gap and, in fact, lead in quality in at least certain areas.
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</a> "It still doesn't register with the public," says GM vice-chairman for product development Bob Lutz. "I can't even expunge the idea of superior Japanese quality from my own mind, even though we have the data that shows it's not true."
Peter Renz has a similar lament. The director of marketing for Hyundai Auto Canada is always pleased discuss the most recent Consumer Reports annual reliability survey. It says the Hyundai Sonata was the best-built 2004 model, with only two problems per 100 vehicles. The average problem rate for 2004 vehicles was 16 per 100 vehicles, so the Sonata was significantly better than the average. For more context, consider that Subaru was the most reliable brand overall, averaging eight problems per 100.
"We just have to keep working to get the message out," says Renz, who previously held a similar position with Toyota Canada, therefore he knows the challenge he is facing first-hand. "It's not going to happen overnight, but we'll keep working at it. We know the quality is there."
2006 Hyundai Sonata. Click image to enlarge But he acknowledges that Hyundai cannot erase memories of rusting Pony cars, broken down Stellars and problem-plagued Sonatas from the 1980s and 1990s. Bad memories are hard to erase from the public consciousness.
"So what choice do we have?" says Renz. "We'll just keep getting out our message and wait for it to sink in with the public."
Hay concedes that it is a similar story for GM. In Power's recent IQS, three GM brands outscored Toyota. Who knew? Certainly not a large chunk of the public who have yet to absorb the message of a more complex quality reality in the new-car marketplace. The truth is, years of quality problems - decades, really, dating back to at least the 1970s -- have left a sour taste in the mouths of tens of thousands of buyers. For every happy Century or Impala buyer today, many more are grumbling about a long list of past gripes.
"We know," says Hays. "But all we can do is build better cars today and keep working at it."
Certainly that's the advice of J.D. Power's Chance Parker, a long-time senior advisor at the market research company based in Southern California. He also points out that once a good reputation is established, it takes a long time for it to be sullied.
"A brand with a rock-solid reputation, if it doesn't do anything disastrous, its reputation will stick," says Parker.
Of all the world's automakers, Toyota most definitely has the best reputation for rock-solid quality. Japan's number one automaker and the world's second-largest continues to lead all others if all the various quality studies are put together. But there are signs the competition is closing in.
One case in point is the Sonata and Hyundai itself. The Korean automaker last year ranked first among all brands for initial quality in the 2004 J.D. Power and Associates study. Hyundai outranked the Toyota brand with 102 problems per 100, versus 104 for the Japanese brand. This year, Hyundai fell back to 11th place with 110 problems per 100, behind Toyota at 105. But clearly Hyundai is within shouting distance.
Similarly, the Impala, Century and other models from General Motors' various brands have done surprisingly well, besting Toyota models in a number of important areas. For instance, among full-size cars the Buick LeSabre ranked first not only in initial quality, but also in J.D. Power's three-year study of things gone wrong, the Vehicle Dependability Study or VDS.
But a Globe and Mail survey of several major quality studies (see below) shows Toyota, while getting a huge boost from its Lexus luxury brand, continues to remain well above average in overall quality and a significant number of its models continue to demonstrate an unprecedented level of reliability excellence. For the fifth year in a row, Lexus held the top spot in the IQS, while the Toyota brand came in seventh - behind Lexus, Jaguar, BMW, Buick, Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz. In the IQS, Toyota or Lexus captured first place in more than half of 18 vehicle segments surveyed; GM followed with five winners.
2006 Lexus LS 430. Click image to enlargeThe Lexus division was also the highest scoring brand for the 11th consecutive year in the VDS or Vehicle Dependability Study.
The Lexus LS430 is a perfect example of how a reputation for quality is built. This year among luxury cars, the LS430 ranks first in initial quality, first in long-term dependability (VDI), first in Consumer Reports for reliability and first in Strategic Vision's Total Quality Index. A grand slam.
2005 Toyota Prius Similarly, the Toyota Prius gasoline/electric hybrid vehicle ranked first in IQS for its segment and was among the top three in compact cars in the VDS. Consumer Reports says the predicted reliability of the Prius among 2005 models is the very best among family cars.
It all adds up to an excellent overall quality showing for Toyota by any measure. Nonetheless, though GM did not have as many segment leaders as Toyota in the IQS and ranked lower overall, it had more winners than any other automaker save Toyota. And as Hay is wont to point out, in the high-volume car segments GM dominated in IQS: the entry midsize car winner was the Chevrolet Malibu/Maxx; the premium midsize car award went to the Century, with two GM vehicles in runner up positions; and the LeSabre took top spot in the full-size car category.
Perhaps more significantly, Detroit-based automakers can now boast of quality improvements that are long-lasting. In the 2005 VDS, which measures long-term quality and reliability, Detroit-based automakers took the top spot in 12 of 19 vehicle segments, compared with 7 of 17 product categories in 2004.
GM models finished on top in eight segments, and the automaker placed 18 vehicles in the top three of the segments surveyed -- the most by any manufacturer. GM's Buick brand placed fourth behind Lexus, Porsche and Ford's Lincoln brand.
Winners included the Cadillac Escalade EXT in the light-duty, full-size pickup segment; the Chevrolet Silverado in the heavy-duty, full-size pickup segment; and the Buick Century among premium midsize cars. Chevrolet won in four segments, and was among the brands scoring better than the industry average with 2.3 problems per vehicle, compared to 2.6 in the 2004 study.
Ford, which has been battered in recent years for lagging in its quality efforts, had the top vehicles in four segments -- including the Ford Windstar in the minivan segment and the Lincoln Town Car in the mid-luxury car segment.
The improvements made by Detroit automakers that are showing up in J.D. Power studies are also reflected in research from Consumer Reports. DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM moved closer to Asian automakers with an overall problem rate of 17 per 100, while the Asians were at 12 per 100 in the most recent study.
More than one Detroit-based auto executive laments that North American automakers do not get credit for manufacturing quality vehicle today, conceding that the legacy of decades of lousy quality might take an entire generation to overcome - before many buyers will be willing to give Detroit another chance.
George Peterson, president of the market research firm, AutoPacific, Inc. in Southern California is among those who think Baby Boomers are a lost generation of consumers for Detroit-based automakers. Too many of them vividly recall the disastrously poor products Detroit-based automakers foisted onto the public in the 1970s, 1980s and even parts of the 1990s.
Peterson concedes that "from a traditional definition of quality, Detroit's manufacturers have made tremendous strides. Now their cars are screwed together just as well as some of the best from Japan and Germany. But the refinement and finesse still aren't there." In the lexicon of the car business, refinement and finesse translate into "perceived quality."
"We recognize there is a gap between perceived and actual quality," says Ford product development chief Phil Martens.
To bridge the gag, automakers need to use better grade materials in more creative and tasteful designs. In particular, vehicle interiors must look richer, more elegant if they are also to be considered "high quality."
So automakers must produce vehicles that don't break, look like they won't break and design them with a richness that speaks volumes about so-called "perceived quality." Today's consumer has grown impatient with anything less. Automakers who fail to produce these kinds of high-quality vehicles face a bleak future.
Ford President Jim Padilla made that clear earlier this year to employees. In an online question-and-answer session obtained by The Detroit News, Padilla told employees that, "Globally, our quality performance and improvement has not been satisfactory. This applies to virtually all brands in all geographic regions. Our competitors are moving faster than Ford to improve their quality and we need to TURN THIS AROUND NOW."
To emphasize his point, Padilla added: "The cost of poor quality is the single largest waste in our business. Quality reputation is also the largest determinant of brand reputation and loyalty so we need to make major strides in reducing our warranty repairs per thousand, cost per repair and things gone wrong."
The Ford brand did, in fact, rank above average in the 2005 VDS and the Lincoln brand placed third. But in the IQS, Lincoln in 2005 was barely above average, while the Ford brand was below average. Ford did win two truck segments in initial quality, midsize pickup (Ford Explorer Sport Trac) and light duty full-size pickup (Ford F-150).
No question Ford is striding in the right direction on quality, but so are many others. And all have Toyota in their sights. The trick will be for rival automakers to catch Toyota and its luxury division, Lexus, for a significant period of time - time enough for such a new reality to actually sink into the public's consciousness.
Toyota Canada president Ken Tomikawa readily acknowledges that rivals are in hot pursuit, but is undeterred. "We are ready for this," he says. "We are working very hard at improving our quality."
Ah, quality. It's a moving target.
What's in a quality study?
By Jeremy Cato
With several high-profile vehicle quality studies all battling for attention, it would be reasonable for consumers to find themselves confused by the shear volume of data at their disposal.
J.D. Power and Associates publishes two very closely followed studies of quality, the Initial Quality Study (IQS) and the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS). Meanwhile, Consumer Reports also publishes its annual auto issue, which in 2005 includes survey results on the quality experience relating to more than 810,000 vehicles. Another study of note is the Total Quality Study by Strategic Vision Inc., a marketing research and consulting firm in Tustin, California. It, too, is done on an annual basis.
The IQS has been done for the past 19 years. This year, Power surveyed more than 62,000 owners after 90 days of ownership to find out what went wrong. The study asks owners to rate vehicle quality on 135 attributes, ranging from cupholder design to engine performance to ride comfort to fuel economy. Of course those surveyed must report if anything actually broke during that first break-in period, too.
The current IQS has been asking the same questions in the same way for eight years. Power officials concede it may need an update to capture information about features that didn't exist eight years ago. J.D. Power must also consider how to create a meaningful survey in an era when automakers have learned how to engineer and build cars specifically designed to do well on the IQS.
Indeed, the automakers as a group have done their homework well, studying to take the test while at the same time actually improving the quality of their products. The result is a very narrow gap between the best and worst performers.
For instance, in 2005 Lexus was the highest-ranked brand with 81 problems per 100 cars, or less than one complaint per vehicle. The lowest-ranked brand, Suzuki, averaged 151 complaints per 100 vehicles, or 1.51 problems per car. In real terms, then the gap between best and worst is not great. Power officials argue the gap may be narrow but it matters.
Another criticism of the IQS is the tendency for certain buyers to be pickier than others. For instance, older buyers report fewer problems than younger ones. Power officials say a buyer is a buyer and that it does not factor in age at the present time for the IQS.
J.D. Power's VDS looks at three-year-old vehicles, attempting to asses the long-term quality and reliability factors that are crucial to generating loyal customers and lowering warranty costs for all automakers. For 2005, consumers were polled on 147 attributes, from ride, handling, braking, engine performance and interior design, to even wind noise. This year wind noise was the top complaint, followed by noisy brakes, uneven tire wear, excessive brake dust and vibrating brakes.
Consumer Reports magazine, a bible for many car shoppers, surveys subscribers to both the magazine and its Web site to gather reliability information on vehicles. The magazine says it publishes "the most comprehensive reliability information to consumers, covering over two hundred models with various engine and drive-train configurations.
Critics of Consumer Reports say its results are not scientifically determined and that the readership tends to have a bias towards Japanese imports - a claim Consumer Reports officials hotly deny. What is clear is that the reliability survey is used to help determine which models make the magazine's recommended list.
Strategic Vision surveyed more than 40,000 consumers who bought new 2005-model vehicles in October and November 2004 for its Total Quality Study or TQS. What sets it apart is that it measures customers' emotional responses to buying, owning and driving their vehicles, as well as performance problems, says Dan Gorrell Strategic Vision's automotive partner in charge.
So which study has the true and right answers? There is no way to know. But what we have done is look for the top four winners in all major categories, ascertaining which vehicles appear more than once. Thus, we have created a blended list of the best quality vehicles in North America that reflects the findings of four major studies.
For instance, the Toyota Prius was ranked among the top four vehicles in both the IQS and the VDS and also has best-in-class predicated reliability from Consumer Reports. Therefore, it is among our quality leaders and made our list.
All the vehicles below, in fact, rank among the top four in at least two of the four major studies of reliability - IQS, VDS, Consumer Reports and TQS. Buy one and you should have a very good chance of driving a vehicle that won't break.
By Jeremy Cato
Chris Hay isn't shy about pointing out that for the last five years the Canadian-built Chevrolet Impala has outscored Toyota's Camry in initial quality. Five straight years.
"I doubt most Canadians know that," says Hay, who has a reason for bringing this to everyone's attention - he's the Assistant Marketing Manager for the Impala, which for 2006 is getting "1,000 refinements and a return of the small block V8 engine."
2006 chevrolet Impala LT. Click image to enlarge Still, there is no denying that the Impala was beaten only by its Buick Cousin, the Century, in the most recent J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study (IQS) of owner-reported problems in the first 90 days. Another GM cousin, the Pontiac Grand Prix, was a runner-up in the Premium Midsize Car class of the 2005 study.
Three midsize GM models and not a Japanese import in sight. Yet common wisdom suggests the Japanese, led by Toyota, have completely cornered the market on quality, even though Detroit-based automakers and others have closed the gap and, in fact, lead in quality in at least certain areas.
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<a href="http://ad.doubleclick.net/jump/aolc.cd.com/portal;sz=300x250;ord=123456789?" target="_blank"> Peter Renz has a similar lament. The director of marketing for Hyundai Auto Canada is always pleased discuss the most recent Consumer Reports annual reliability survey. It says the Hyundai Sonata was the best-built 2004 model, with only two problems per 100 vehicles. The average problem rate for 2004 vehicles was 16 per 100 vehicles, so the Sonata was significantly better than the average. For more context, consider that Subaru was the most reliable brand overall, averaging eight problems per 100.
"We just have to keep working to get the message out," says Renz, who previously held a similar position with Toyota Canada, therefore he knows the challenge he is facing first-hand. "It's not going to happen overnight, but we'll keep working at it. We know the quality is there."
2006 Hyundai Sonata. Click image to enlarge But he acknowledges that Hyundai cannot erase memories of rusting Pony cars, broken down Stellars and problem-plagued Sonatas from the 1980s and 1990s. Bad memories are hard to erase from the public consciousness.
"So what choice do we have?" says Renz. "We'll just keep getting out our message and wait for it to sink in with the public."
Hay concedes that it is a similar story for GM. In Power's recent IQS, three GM brands outscored Toyota. Who knew? Certainly not a large chunk of the public who have yet to absorb the message of a more complex quality reality in the new-car marketplace. The truth is, years of quality problems - decades, really, dating back to at least the 1970s -- have left a sour taste in the mouths of tens of thousands of buyers. For every happy Century or Impala buyer today, many more are grumbling about a long list of past gripes.
"We know," says Hays. "But all we can do is build better cars today and keep working at it."
Certainly that's the advice of J.D. Power's Chance Parker, a long-time senior advisor at the market research company based in Southern California. He also points out that once a good reputation is established, it takes a long time for it to be sullied.
"A brand with a rock-solid reputation, if it doesn't do anything disastrous, its reputation will stick," says Parker.
Of all the world's automakers, Toyota most definitely has the best reputation for rock-solid quality. Japan's number one automaker and the world's second-largest continues to lead all others if all the various quality studies are put together. But there are signs the competition is closing in.
One case in point is the Sonata and Hyundai itself. The Korean automaker last year ranked first among all brands for initial quality in the 2004 J.D. Power and Associates study. Hyundai outranked the Toyota brand with 102 problems per 100, versus 104 for the Japanese brand. This year, Hyundai fell back to 11th place with 110 problems per 100, behind Toyota at 105. But clearly Hyundai is within shouting distance.
Similarly, the Impala, Century and other models from General Motors' various brands have done surprisingly well, besting Toyota models in a number of important areas. For instance, among full-size cars the Buick LeSabre ranked first not only in initial quality, but also in J.D. Power's three-year study of things gone wrong, the Vehicle Dependability Study or VDS.
But a Globe and Mail survey of several major quality studies (see below) shows Toyota, while getting a huge boost from its Lexus luxury brand, continues to remain well above average in overall quality and a significant number of its models continue to demonstrate an unprecedented level of reliability excellence. For the fifth year in a row, Lexus held the top spot in the IQS, while the Toyota brand came in seventh - behind Lexus, Jaguar, BMW, Buick, Cadillac and Mercedes-Benz. In the IQS, Toyota or Lexus captured first place in more than half of 18 vehicle segments surveyed; GM followed with five winners.
2006 Lexus LS 430. Click image to enlargeThe Lexus division was also the highest scoring brand for the 11th consecutive year in the VDS or Vehicle Dependability Study.
The Lexus LS430 is a perfect example of how a reputation for quality is built. This year among luxury cars, the LS430 ranks first in initial quality, first in long-term dependability (VDI), first in Consumer Reports for reliability and first in Strategic Vision's Total Quality Index. A grand slam.
2005 Toyota Prius Similarly, the Toyota Prius gasoline/electric hybrid vehicle ranked first in IQS for its segment and was among the top three in compact cars in the VDS. Consumer Reports says the predicted reliability of the Prius among 2005 models is the very best among family cars.
It all adds up to an excellent overall quality showing for Toyota by any measure. Nonetheless, though GM did not have as many segment leaders as Toyota in the IQS and ranked lower overall, it had more winners than any other automaker save Toyota. And as Hay is wont to point out, in the high-volume car segments GM dominated in IQS: the entry midsize car winner was the Chevrolet Malibu/Maxx; the premium midsize car award went to the Century, with two GM vehicles in runner up positions; and the LeSabre took top spot in the full-size car category.
Perhaps more significantly, Detroit-based automakers can now boast of quality improvements that are long-lasting. In the 2005 VDS, which measures long-term quality and reliability, Detroit-based automakers took the top spot in 12 of 19 vehicle segments, compared with 7 of 17 product categories in 2004.
GM models finished on top in eight segments, and the automaker placed 18 vehicles in the top three of the segments surveyed -- the most by any manufacturer. GM's Buick brand placed fourth behind Lexus, Porsche and Ford's Lincoln brand.
Winners included the Cadillac Escalade EXT in the light-duty, full-size pickup segment; the Chevrolet Silverado in the heavy-duty, full-size pickup segment; and the Buick Century among premium midsize cars. Chevrolet won in four segments, and was among the brands scoring better than the industry average with 2.3 problems per vehicle, compared to 2.6 in the 2004 study.
Ford, which has been battered in recent years for lagging in its quality efforts, had the top vehicles in four segments -- including the Ford Windstar in the minivan segment and the Lincoln Town Car in the mid-luxury car segment.
The improvements made by Detroit automakers that are showing up in J.D. Power studies are also reflected in research from Consumer Reports. DaimlerChrysler, Ford and GM moved closer to Asian automakers with an overall problem rate of 17 per 100, while the Asians were at 12 per 100 in the most recent study.
More than one Detroit-based auto executive laments that North American automakers do not get credit for manufacturing quality vehicle today, conceding that the legacy of decades of lousy quality might take an entire generation to overcome - before many buyers will be willing to give Detroit another chance.
George Peterson, president of the market research firm, AutoPacific, Inc. in Southern California is among those who think Baby Boomers are a lost generation of consumers for Detroit-based automakers. Too many of them vividly recall the disastrously poor products Detroit-based automakers foisted onto the public in the 1970s, 1980s and even parts of the 1990s.
Peterson concedes that "from a traditional definition of quality, Detroit's manufacturers have made tremendous strides. Now their cars are screwed together just as well as some of the best from Japan and Germany. But the refinement and finesse still aren't there." In the lexicon of the car business, refinement and finesse translate into "perceived quality."
"We recognize there is a gap between perceived and actual quality," says Ford product development chief Phil Martens.
To bridge the gag, automakers need to use better grade materials in more creative and tasteful designs. In particular, vehicle interiors must look richer, more elegant if they are also to be considered "high quality."
So automakers must produce vehicles that don't break, look like they won't break and design them with a richness that speaks volumes about so-called "perceived quality." Today's consumer has grown impatient with anything less. Automakers who fail to produce these kinds of high-quality vehicles face a bleak future.
Ford President Jim Padilla made that clear earlier this year to employees. In an online question-and-answer session obtained by The Detroit News, Padilla told employees that, "Globally, our quality performance and improvement has not been satisfactory. This applies to virtually all brands in all geographic regions. Our competitors are moving faster than Ford to improve their quality and we need to TURN THIS AROUND NOW."
To emphasize his point, Padilla added: "The cost of poor quality is the single largest waste in our business. Quality reputation is also the largest determinant of brand reputation and loyalty so we need to make major strides in reducing our warranty repairs per thousand, cost per repair and things gone wrong."
The Ford brand did, in fact, rank above average in the 2005 VDS and the Lincoln brand placed third. But in the IQS, Lincoln in 2005 was barely above average, while the Ford brand was below average. Ford did win two truck segments in initial quality, midsize pickup (Ford Explorer Sport Trac) and light duty full-size pickup (Ford F-150).
No question Ford is striding in the right direction on quality, but so are many others. And all have Toyota in their sights. The trick will be for rival automakers to catch Toyota and its luxury division, Lexus, for a significant period of time - time enough for such a new reality to actually sink into the public's consciousness.
Toyota Canada president Ken Tomikawa readily acknowledges that rivals are in hot pursuit, but is undeterred. "We are ready for this," he says. "We are working very hard at improving our quality."
Ah, quality. It's a moving target.
What's in a quality study?
By Jeremy Cato
With several high-profile vehicle quality studies all battling for attention, it would be reasonable for consumers to find themselves confused by the shear volume of data at their disposal.
J.D. Power and Associates publishes two very closely followed studies of quality, the Initial Quality Study (IQS) and the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS). Meanwhile, Consumer Reports also publishes its annual auto issue, which in 2005 includes survey results on the quality experience relating to more than 810,000 vehicles. Another study of note is the Total Quality Study by Strategic Vision Inc., a marketing research and consulting firm in Tustin, California. It, too, is done on an annual basis.
The IQS has been done for the past 19 years. This year, Power surveyed more than 62,000 owners after 90 days of ownership to find out what went wrong. The study asks owners to rate vehicle quality on 135 attributes, ranging from cupholder design to engine performance to ride comfort to fuel economy. Of course those surveyed must report if anything actually broke during that first break-in period, too.
The current IQS has been asking the same questions in the same way for eight years. Power officials concede it may need an update to capture information about features that didn't exist eight years ago. J.D. Power must also consider how to create a meaningful survey in an era when automakers have learned how to engineer and build cars specifically designed to do well on the IQS.
Indeed, the automakers as a group have done their homework well, studying to take the test while at the same time actually improving the quality of their products. The result is a very narrow gap between the best and worst performers.
For instance, in 2005 Lexus was the highest-ranked brand with 81 problems per 100 cars, or less than one complaint per vehicle. The lowest-ranked brand, Suzuki, averaged 151 complaints per 100 vehicles, or 1.51 problems per car. In real terms, then the gap between best and worst is not great. Power officials argue the gap may be narrow but it matters.
Another criticism of the IQS is the tendency for certain buyers to be pickier than others. For instance, older buyers report fewer problems than younger ones. Power officials say a buyer is a buyer and that it does not factor in age at the present time for the IQS.
J.D. Power's VDS looks at three-year-old vehicles, attempting to asses the long-term quality and reliability factors that are crucial to generating loyal customers and lowering warranty costs for all automakers. For 2005, consumers were polled on 147 attributes, from ride, handling, braking, engine performance and interior design, to even wind noise. This year wind noise was the top complaint, followed by noisy brakes, uneven tire wear, excessive brake dust and vibrating brakes.
Consumer Reports magazine, a bible for many car shoppers, surveys subscribers to both the magazine and its Web site to gather reliability information on vehicles. The magazine says it publishes "the most comprehensive reliability information to consumers, covering over two hundred models with various engine and drive-train configurations.
Critics of Consumer Reports say its results are not scientifically determined and that the readership tends to have a bias towards Japanese imports - a claim Consumer Reports officials hotly deny. What is clear is that the reliability survey is used to help determine which models make the magazine's recommended list.
Strategic Vision surveyed more than 40,000 consumers who bought new 2005-model vehicles in October and November 2004 for its Total Quality Study or TQS. What sets it apart is that it measures customers' emotional responses to buying, owning and driving their vehicles, as well as performance problems, says Dan Gorrell Strategic Vision's automotive partner in charge.
So which study has the true and right answers? There is no way to know. But what we have done is look for the top four winners in all major categories, ascertaining which vehicles appear more than once. Thus, we have created a blended list of the best quality vehicles in North America that reflects the findings of four major studies.
For instance, the Toyota Prius was ranked among the top four vehicles in both the IQS and the VDS and also has best-in-class predicated reliability from Consumer Reports. Therefore, it is among our quality leaders and made our list.
All the vehicles below, in fact, rank among the top four in at least two of the four major studies of reliability - IQS, VDS, Consumer Reports and TQS. Buy one and you should have a very good chance of driving a vehicle that won't break.
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