Chris Bangle: The Choice of Difference
12-05-2003, 10:32 PM
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Chris Bangle: The Choice of Difference
There is almost not a day when I read threads here criticizing BMW's Chris Bangle design about nearly all of BMW's car models now.
Admittedly, the BMW design has grown up on me, and I even surprised myself at falling in love at first sight with the new 3, 4 and 5 series. This, I think, may be due to an interview with Chris Bangle I read in spring 2002, giving some insight as to what BMW want their cars to be perceived like, and how BMW themselves perceive the cars they build.
This interview is sourced from Sport Auto #482 (March 2002), a French sports and exotic car magasine. Now, I do the translating, so if there are some mistakes or bad phrasing, please be lenient, I am not a professional translater:
The Choice Of Difference
Needless to say, a debate goes on about the laest BMWs. At the center of controvesy: Chris Bangle, director of design of the Bavarian constructor. Here are his explanations on his choices.
Let's be franc: the present BMW style creates a certain unease. Without being the most outgoing, Sport Auto has clearly expressed it scepticism about this subject, whether it concerned concept cars Z9, X Coupe ("The vehicle shouldn't leave marks in anyone's memory... at least, let's hope so...", we wrote down after the 2001 Detroit Auto Show), or also coming cars like the 3-compact, the series 3 restyling or even about the all new series 7. So let's now let the defendant defend himself. Chris Bangle, BMW's Director of Design willingly goes out front to defend his choices. The man has this spontaneous warmth typical to the Americans which, in a few minutes, lead you to think that you've been friends forever. We can discern here, the effects of a master at the art of communicating, but also of his natural side of a little childish, mischievous, ratther unexpected in this cold administrative BMW building in Munich. Constantly mimicking to prolong his discourse, he even mocks the new "look" of the 7 series, or noisily imitates the screeching of tires from a limousine under full lock braking... a complete artist!
How do you live the controversy over the styling of your cars, for example for the 7 series?
Something essential must be specified: it is an artificial debate, concerning European reporters only (note: it seems the debate has expanded since then...). Up until now, the potential customers seem delighted with the car. As for the American reporters, they are a lot less severe than their European fellows. But this is normal. Specialized car magazines in the US are, addressed to a crowd of connaisseur customers, who mainly buy them by subscription. So this is why they don't need to front with titles like "BMW style on the side rails" to sell their paper! I also believe the reporters have a very selective memory. Everything is as if nothing had evolved since Michellotti's BMW sedans of the mid-60s , and that now I'm the one who has finally started making things happen. But it's completely false! BMW styling has seen changes in styling as drastic as the one we are proposing now. Have you forgotten the scandal that was created by the style of the old series 3?
What are, in your opinion, the BMW values that you need to express?
BMW is a high end brand, a sporty one, one that carries emotions. We build motorcycles and cars. Not trucks and cars... Succes is also a value carried by BMW, for example, the series 7. You can also add personality. A car is not like a dress for a reputable tailor, carried by a model. There is an interaction between the user and the car, you live in it. It's almost a projection of your personality, an avatar of yourself. So, we have studied in order to find the personality of our potential series 7 customers, especially in the US. We have been surprised by the results. Many imagine that the customers of these cars are retired rich people that have but a faraway knowledge of the real world. In fact, the majority of the customers of 7 series have less than 50 years of age, and show a high level of success in their careers. It just so happens that nowadays it is not possible to achieve success in business without good means of communication. By deciding to introduce internet in the car, I have then explained to our dealers that this corresponded to the way of life of our customers. This has had a considerable influence of the interior design, since it has had, as a consquence to this choice, the disappearance of one of BMW's classic signatures, namely the twin arched dashboard.
Among the thing we complain about the new series 7 is its lack of simplicity, a very high hood and trunk that doesn't fit well with the sporty image of the brand...
We must start from the general architecture of the car. The sries 7 is about 2 cm longer than the previous model, but you will not be aware of this due to more pronounced curves from the bumpers. It is larger by about 15cm, and, there again, the curves hide this enlargment. But, especially, it is higher by 4 to 6cm. Why? Everything starts with the engine. The new valvetronic double vanos V8 is a lot higher than the old version. The choice there has been decided without hesitation: this engine brings more power, better fuel economy as well as lower emissions. There was now way we would not have used it just because there wasn't enough space under the hood. Since the engine is higher, the passengers need to be higher as well. And because there is more power this requires better brakes, thus larger wheels, which also requires than we lengthen the wheelbase slightly. By doing so, the cabin has backed up on the chassis by about 4cm. Next, we have used taller dummies to define the cabin's sizes. This because, by average, each generation of drivers are taller by about 8mm to 1cm by comparison to their parents' generation. So we have obtained 2cm more in ceiling height. All of this before having even drawn a single line of the car, but it already had it's general volumes. It's then up to us designers to adopt the new dimesions and make it the symbol of a change. Take the the fender line, for example. Our car has grown in height, so the passengers could have risked being locked in a tank. So we leaved it more or less at the same height as it's preceding generation, but we have created a second line, suggested in the prolongment of the hood and the trunk, and we have added the "shoulders", giving it an athletic force, a sporty and dynamic character. In the end, you have something like a sculpture with a changing perspective depending on its viewing angle, and with a strong personality. You say that car lacks simplicty? I'll answer to this that it's not a question of simplicity, it's a question of personality. With this car, we have added a bit of fresh DNA in BMW's car genes. And each time a new genetic element is implated in an organism, resistance is encountered, it's natural.
The series 7 seems to be, in its form, an answer to its own problems. Does this mean that its visual identity will not be reproduced in other models?
In fact, what we have tried to resolve is the problem of the statutory car of the 21st century, adapted to the spirit of BMW. There are two categories of BMW: Statutory BMWs, and spontaneous BMWs. The statutory BMWs will be more or less along the lines of the series 7 and Z9. Those are solemn cars. They reflect and affirm the social and cultural level you have reached. Now, look at the Z3. Its role is very different. It reflects liberty in your lifestyle. You cannot easily transpose the style of a statutory car to that of a non-statutory car, just by deciding to reduce its dimensions. In the past years, BMW did what I call by a formula: one same sausage, different sizes. It is a defendable startegy if your line of products is not of different genres. But nowadays it is not the case anymore. We have already shown it with series X or Z, and we will soon continue with series 1. In order to help us in our thinking, we've looked at what the BMW motorcycle department did, making their products evolve in a radical way these last years. Each model has a specific mission, with a very different styling as well. But if you put them all together, they form an obvious family. We have adopted the same way of thinking for our cars. When working on the series 7 and Z9, we have also reflected upon other car types. It became obvious that we could not reduce the 7 series design to aplly it ot other series. So we built two concept cars: the Z9, in the form of a coupe, and convertible, and the X-Coupe. At one end, the Z9 represents formalism, elegance, stature, while at the same time remaining sporty and dynamic. At the other end, the X-Coupe is very spontaneous and displays a lot of energy compared to its size. Now that we have defined the limit of the spectre, we know that everything that will be outside those limits will not be BMW. But this leaves us plenty of space to choose the styles of the different families of vehicles that we wish to produce. We have accepted that these two cars would shock the public, because we had to define the limits of a very large spectre of styling within which we'd be working during the years to come. With these two concept cars, we have created ourselves a methodology. We will not start from a blank sheet each time we want to draw a new car. For example, when the 5 series will appear in 2003, you will see its obvious relationship it has with the 7 series, but you will feel something new, a flavour inherited from the X-Coupe.
All I can say is that so far they have been true to the principles of styling they have defined, so the 3, 4, and 5 have come to me as no surprise, and, knowing what to expect, the bases were laid for love at first sight.
Note: I'm tired now, I will proof read and correct my text tomorrow.
Admittedly, the BMW design has grown up on me, and I even surprised myself at falling in love at first sight with the new 3, 4 and 5 series. This, I think, may be due to an interview with Chris Bangle I read in spring 2002, giving some insight as to what BMW want their cars to be perceived like, and how BMW themselves perceive the cars they build.
This interview is sourced from Sport Auto #482 (March 2002), a French sports and exotic car magasine. Now, I do the translating, so if there are some mistakes or bad phrasing, please be lenient, I am not a professional translater:
The Choice Of Difference
Needless to say, a debate goes on about the laest BMWs. At the center of controvesy: Chris Bangle, director of design of the Bavarian constructor. Here are his explanations on his choices.
Let's be franc: the present BMW style creates a certain unease. Without being the most outgoing, Sport Auto has clearly expressed it scepticism about this subject, whether it concerned concept cars Z9, X Coupe ("The vehicle shouldn't leave marks in anyone's memory... at least, let's hope so...", we wrote down after the 2001 Detroit Auto Show), or also coming cars like the 3-compact, the series 3 restyling or even about the all new series 7. So let's now let the defendant defend himself. Chris Bangle, BMW's Director of Design willingly goes out front to defend his choices. The man has this spontaneous warmth typical to the Americans which, in a few minutes, lead you to think that you've been friends forever. We can discern here, the effects of a master at the art of communicating, but also of his natural side of a little childish, mischievous, ratther unexpected in this cold administrative BMW building in Munich. Constantly mimicking to prolong his discourse, he even mocks the new "look" of the 7 series, or noisily imitates the screeching of tires from a limousine under full lock braking... a complete artist!
How do you live the controversy over the styling of your cars, for example for the 7 series?
Something essential must be specified: it is an artificial debate, concerning European reporters only (note: it seems the debate has expanded since then...). Up until now, the potential customers seem delighted with the car. As for the American reporters, they are a lot less severe than their European fellows. But this is normal. Specialized car magazines in the US are, addressed to a crowd of connaisseur customers, who mainly buy them by subscription. So this is why they don't need to front with titles like "BMW style on the side rails" to sell their paper! I also believe the reporters have a very selective memory. Everything is as if nothing had evolved since Michellotti's BMW sedans of the mid-60s , and that now I'm the one who has finally started making things happen. But it's completely false! BMW styling has seen changes in styling as drastic as the one we are proposing now. Have you forgotten the scandal that was created by the style of the old series 3?
What are, in your opinion, the BMW values that you need to express?
BMW is a high end brand, a sporty one, one that carries emotions. We build motorcycles and cars. Not trucks and cars... Succes is also a value carried by BMW, for example, the series 7. You can also add personality. A car is not like a dress for a reputable tailor, carried by a model. There is an interaction between the user and the car, you live in it. It's almost a projection of your personality, an avatar of yourself. So, we have studied in order to find the personality of our potential series 7 customers, especially in the US. We have been surprised by the results. Many imagine that the customers of these cars are retired rich people that have but a faraway knowledge of the real world. In fact, the majority of the customers of 7 series have less than 50 years of age, and show a high level of success in their careers. It just so happens that nowadays it is not possible to achieve success in business without good means of communication. By deciding to introduce internet in the car, I have then explained to our dealers that this corresponded to the way of life of our customers. This has had a considerable influence of the interior design, since it has had, as a consquence to this choice, the disappearance of one of BMW's classic signatures, namely the twin arched dashboard.
Among the thing we complain about the new series 7 is its lack of simplicity, a very high hood and trunk that doesn't fit well with the sporty image of the brand...
We must start from the general architecture of the car. The sries 7 is about 2 cm longer than the previous model, but you will not be aware of this due to more pronounced curves from the bumpers. It is larger by about 15cm, and, there again, the curves hide this enlargment. But, especially, it is higher by 4 to 6cm. Why? Everything starts with the engine. The new valvetronic double vanos V8 is a lot higher than the old version. The choice there has been decided without hesitation: this engine brings more power, better fuel economy as well as lower emissions. There was now way we would not have used it just because there wasn't enough space under the hood. Since the engine is higher, the passengers need to be higher as well. And because there is more power this requires better brakes, thus larger wheels, which also requires than we lengthen the wheelbase slightly. By doing so, the cabin has backed up on the chassis by about 4cm. Next, we have used taller dummies to define the cabin's sizes. This because, by average, each generation of drivers are taller by about 8mm to 1cm by comparison to their parents' generation. So we have obtained 2cm more in ceiling height. All of this before having even drawn a single line of the car, but it already had it's general volumes. It's then up to us designers to adopt the new dimesions and make it the symbol of a change. Take the the fender line, for example. Our car has grown in height, so the passengers could have risked being locked in a tank. So we leaved it more or less at the same height as it's preceding generation, but we have created a second line, suggested in the prolongment of the hood and the trunk, and we have added the "shoulders", giving it an athletic force, a sporty and dynamic character. In the end, you have something like a sculpture with a changing perspective depending on its viewing angle, and with a strong personality. You say that car lacks simplicty? I'll answer to this that it's not a question of simplicity, it's a question of personality. With this car, we have added a bit of fresh DNA in BMW's car genes. And each time a new genetic element is implated in an organism, resistance is encountered, it's natural.
The series 7 seems to be, in its form, an answer to its own problems. Does this mean that its visual identity will not be reproduced in other models?
In fact, what we have tried to resolve is the problem of the statutory car of the 21st century, adapted to the spirit of BMW. There are two categories of BMW: Statutory BMWs, and spontaneous BMWs. The statutory BMWs will be more or less along the lines of the series 7 and Z9. Those are solemn cars. They reflect and affirm the social and cultural level you have reached. Now, look at the Z3. Its role is very different. It reflects liberty in your lifestyle. You cannot easily transpose the style of a statutory car to that of a non-statutory car, just by deciding to reduce its dimensions. In the past years, BMW did what I call by a formula: one same sausage, different sizes. It is a defendable startegy if your line of products is not of different genres. But nowadays it is not the case anymore. We have already shown it with series X or Z, and we will soon continue with series 1. In order to help us in our thinking, we've looked at what the BMW motorcycle department did, making their products evolve in a radical way these last years. Each model has a specific mission, with a very different styling as well. But if you put them all together, they form an obvious family. We have adopted the same way of thinking for our cars. When working on the series 7 and Z9, we have also reflected upon other car types. It became obvious that we could not reduce the 7 series design to aplly it ot other series. So we built two concept cars: the Z9, in the form of a coupe, and convertible, and the X-Coupe. At one end, the Z9 represents formalism, elegance, stature, while at the same time remaining sporty and dynamic. At the other end, the X-Coupe is very spontaneous and displays a lot of energy compared to its size. Now that we have defined the limit of the spectre, we know that everything that will be outside those limits will not be BMW. But this leaves us plenty of space to choose the styles of the different families of vehicles that we wish to produce. We have accepted that these two cars would shock the public, because we had to define the limits of a very large spectre of styling within which we'd be working during the years to come. With these two concept cars, we have created ourselves a methodology. We will not start from a blank sheet each time we want to draw a new car. For example, when the 5 series will appear in 2003, you will see its obvious relationship it has with the 7 series, but you will feel something new, a flavour inherited from the X-Coupe.
All I can say is that so far they have been true to the principles of styling they have defined, so the 3, 4, and 5 have come to me as no surprise, and, knowing what to expect, the bases were laid for love at first sight.
Note: I'm tired now, I will proof read and correct my text tomorrow.
12-06-2003, 12:01 AM
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Good design should be able to convey the desired feelings and impressions through a purely visual medium. It does not require paragraphs of text. I see the Bangle's designs and feel nauseous. I am but one opinion, but obviously not alone.
12-06-2003, 01:22 AM
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I've read about all the lines on the Z4 (explained by bangle himself)... and I thought it was neat but then I kept looking at the car and I just thought it was all wrong.
Same goes with the 5 (which is by far the worst). I just don't buy into the whole notion that he's a good designer. I think he failed. I just don't get the people who can honestly say the new 5 looks better than the old.
Same goes with the 5 (which is by far the worst). I just don't buy into the whole notion that he's a good designer. I think he failed. I just don't get the people who can honestly say the new 5 looks better than the old.
12-06-2003, 01:31 AM
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Looks of a car will always be subjective so you'll have folks on either side of the fence. I don't think you'll see BMW go the way of the Accord or Camry where they worry about making it as bland as possible so as to offend as few people as possible.
And no amount of explanation will change people's judgement of the looks of a car.
Now the "feel" of the ride - that's another matter.
And no amount of explanation will change people's judgement of the looks of a car.
Now the "feel" of the ride - that's another matter.
12-06-2003, 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by kiteboy
Good design should be able to convey the desired feelings and impressions through a purely visual medium. It does not require paragraphs of text. I see the Bangle's designs and feel nauseous. I am but one opinion, but obviously not alone.
Good design should be able to convey the desired feelings and impressions through a purely visual medium. It does not require paragraphs of text. I see the Bangle's designs and feel nauseous. I am but one opinion, but obviously not alone.
Example: The XXXX is all bangled up.
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12-06-2003, 06:21 AM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
He's an idiot.
He's an idiot.
12-06-2003, 07:06 AM
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It looks as if for as long as he'll be there, the Bangle style of design will be there to stay. You have to give it to him that there is a continuity and a relationship between the different series making them all appear as one large family of products. In that, I think he has succeeded.
I too think it's very regrettable that he would have to explain his design. Obviously, the message isn't well transmitted.
But the impression I have, and maybe this could be corroborated or proved by my fellow BMW owners here, (or even by a poll in BMW forums) is that maybe the Bangle design is a lot better received among current BMW customers than among potential BMW customers.
In fact, I would think that BMW would not have lost too many customers because of the Bangle design, but also not gained any more clientele.
I too think it's very regrettable that he would have to explain his design. Obviously, the message isn't well transmitted.
But the impression I have, and maybe this could be corroborated or proved by my fellow BMW owners here, (or even by a poll in BMW forums) is that maybe the Bangle design is a lot better received among current BMW customers than among potential BMW customers.
In fact, I would think that BMW would not have lost too many customers because of the Bangle design, but also not gained any more clientele.
12-06-2003, 08:19 AM
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Originally posted by sauceman
It looks as if for as long as he'll be there, the Bangle style of design will be there to stay. You have to give it to him that there is a continuity and a relationship between the different series making them all appear as one large family of products. In that, I think he has succeeded.
I too think it's very regrettable that he would have to explain his design. Obviously, the message isn't well transmitted.
But the impression I have, and maybe this could be corroborated or proved by my fellow BMW owners here, (or even by a poll in BMW forums) is that maybe the Bangle design is a lot better received among current BMW customers than among potential BMW customers.
In fact, I would think that BMW would not have lost too many customers because of the Bangle design, but also not gained any more clientele.
It looks as if for as long as he'll be there, the Bangle style of design will be there to stay. You have to give it to him that there is a continuity and a relationship between the different series making them all appear as one large family of products. In that, I think he has succeeded.
I too think it's very regrettable that he would have to explain his design. Obviously, the message isn't well transmitted.
But the impression I have, and maybe this could be corroborated or proved by my fellow BMW owners here, (or even by a poll in BMW forums) is that maybe the Bangle design is a lot better received among current BMW customers than among potential BMW customers.
In fact, I would think that BMW would not have lost too many customers because of the Bangle design, but also not gained any more clientele.
12-06-2003, 11:04 AM
#11
Tho current owners of the newly restyled BMW's can't be too happy with him if they've been paying attention at all to how fast their "fancy" BMWs are depreciated compared to past models....
12-06-2003, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by kenbiddulph
You are not alone. I now use "Bangle" to describe a ruined automotive design.
Example: The XXXX is all bangled up.
You are not alone. I now use "Bangle" to describe a ruined automotive design.
Example: The XXXX is all bangled up.
I hope it catches on, to the point of "bangle" becoming a synonym in general for "bungle," even becoming the more common usage. Kinda like "flounder" instead of "founder" -- it's technically wrong, but it's almost the only thing you hear.
And if Chris stays on for quite a while, it won't be long before "BMW" and "BM" also become interchangeable.
12-06-2003, 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by kenbiddulph
You are not alone. I now use "Bangle" to describe a ruined automotive design.
Example: The XXXX is all bangled up.
You are not alone. I now use "Bangle" to describe a ruined automotive design.
Example: The XXXX is all bangled up.
12-06-2003, 02:27 PM
#16
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Styling issues aside, the 7 series and a few of the first 5 series will bring a bad name for BMW because of Idrive and a multitude of other problems . There were great number of 7 series that BMW had to buy back because of problems.
The average 50-60 year old executive who buys the new 7 series probably doesn't care as much that his car has been "bangled" as the multiple times the car has to go to the dealer to fix one thing or another.
The average 50-60 year old executive who buys the new 7 series probably doesn't care as much that his car has been "bangled" as the multiple times the car has to go to the dealer to fix one thing or another.
12-07-2003, 01:02 AM
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Originally posted by zircon
Scuttlebutt has it that Bangle is going to move to Pontiac to do the new Aztek.
Scuttlebutt has it that Bangle is going to move to Pontiac to do the new Aztek.
http://www.sniffpetrol.com/issue041.html
12-07-2003, 11:46 PM
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the 6 is beautiful except the rar. lease rates on all these cars are going to go up to compensate for increased depreciation. I don't understand what they did, as usually only dog car lines do radical revamps. Good companies don't change names, descredited, corrupt ones do. So, why did BMW let their car lines change so radically?
12-08-2003, 12:15 AM
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Well...seems to me that Chris Bangle is indeed a very intelligent man. Fact of the matter is that his design philosophy is so smart and so advanced that it goes over everyone's heads.
Like what others have said, a design should not have to be explained in writing to show its beauty. It should be seen automatically. The writing should only supplement feelings...not create them. I should be able to say "WOW! That's one gorgeous car!" and the designer should then only be able to explain for what reasons it is so beautiful. Does this make sense?
Bangle is an artist--or maybe a philosopher--not an automotive designer.
Like what others have said, a design should not have to be explained in writing to show its beauty. It should be seen automatically. The writing should only supplement feelings...not create them. I should be able to say "WOW! That's one gorgeous car!" and the designer should then only be able to explain for what reasons it is so beautiful. Does this make sense?
Bangle is an artist--or maybe a philosopher--not an automotive designer.
12-08-2003, 08:33 AM
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Originally posted by SPUDMTN
....Does this make sense?....
....Does this make sense?
....
And Chris Bangle is an automotive designer despite his Art Center education.
12-08-2003, 10:47 AM
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I've said this on another thread before about Bangle and his works at BMW...
I think Bangle just shot too far away from the traditional BMW design for everyone's comfort. BMW intended for Bangle to make their cars look different from the German brothers and look like no other car line/design, and in this aspect they succeeded. But different doesn't always mean better, and the new design just causes more talks of the choas that is going on at BMW. It use to be that the design team was allowed some autonomy from the heads of the company, but now the heads are intervening and 'fixing' some of the designs (the 3 design was supposedly radically changed).
I wonder, with all the criticism, which cannot be ignored forever, how long will Bangle last at BMW if he continues with the same line of 'flame'-themed design.
Junkster, who thinks BMW should have picked up someone from a more prominent design studio.
I think Bangle just shot too far away from the traditional BMW design for everyone's comfort. BMW intended for Bangle to make their cars look different from the German brothers and look like no other car line/design, and in this aspect they succeeded. But different doesn't always mean better, and the new design just causes more talks of the choas that is going on at BMW. It use to be that the design team was allowed some autonomy from the heads of the company, but now the heads are intervening and 'fixing' some of the designs (the 3 design was supposedly radically changed).
I wonder, with all the criticism, which cannot be ignored forever, how long will Bangle last at BMW if he continues with the same line of 'flame'-themed design.
Junkster, who thinks BMW should have picked up someone from a more prominent design studio.
12-08-2003, 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by Junkster
I've said this on another thread before about Bangle and his works at BMW...
I think Bangle just shot too far away from the traditional BMW design for everyone's comfort. BMW intended for Bangle to make their cars look different from the German brothers and look like no other car line/design, and in this aspect they succeeded. But different doesn't always mean better, and the new design just causes more talks of the choas that is going on at BMW. It use to be that the design team was allowed some autonomy from the heads of the company, but now the heads are intervening and 'fixing' some of the designs (the 3 design was supposedly radically changed).
I wonder, with all the criticism, which cannot be ignored forever, how long will Bangle last at BMW if he continues with the same line of 'flame'-themed design.
Junkster, who thinks BMW should have picked up someone from a more prominent design studio.
I've said this on another thread before about Bangle and his works at BMW...
I think Bangle just shot too far away from the traditional BMW design for everyone's comfort. BMW intended for Bangle to make their cars look different from the German brothers and look like no other car line/design, and in this aspect they succeeded. But different doesn't always mean better, and the new design just causes more talks of the choas that is going on at BMW. It use to be that the design team was allowed some autonomy from the heads of the company, but now the heads are intervening and 'fixing' some of the designs (the 3 design was supposedly radically changed).
I wonder, with all the criticism, which cannot be ignored forever, how long will Bangle last at BMW if he continues with the same line of 'flame'-themed design.
Junkster, who thinks BMW should have picked up someone from a more prominent design studio.
CD put it best with the new 5, saying something like "BMW has run aground on a styling reef" and that the company is "drifting off mission." What a shame!
12-08-2003, 11:43 AM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
I think a great deal of hubrous led to all this but BMW is in a real fix now. If they fire Bangle (or he leaves) that would amount to an admission by the company that it seriously failed (which is true!) with Bangle at the design helm. What would that do to sales? We're talking billions of development dollars at stake. I think they will gradually rework the current cars and ensure any new products (3 series) are at least attractive looking, all the while publically proclaiming how the cars are furthering the flame surfacing and so forth themes of the Bungler. Meanwhile, in a competitive market, if Lexus, MB, Audi and yes, Acura, come out with attractive competing products, they will take market share from BMW's botched ones. Looks count too, whether one is spending $25K or $55K. I can't believe the *ss end of the new 6 is soooo ugly! Who approved that thing?
CD put it best with the new 5, saying something like "BMW has run aground on a styling reef" and that the company is "drifting off mission." What a shame!
I think a great deal of hubrous led to all this but BMW is in a real fix now. If they fire Bangle (or he leaves) that would amount to an admission by the company that it seriously failed (which is true!) with Bangle at the design helm. What would that do to sales? We're talking billions of development dollars at stake. I think they will gradually rework the current cars and ensure any new products (3 series) are at least attractive looking, all the while publically proclaiming how the cars are furthering the flame surfacing and so forth themes of the Bungler. Meanwhile, in a competitive market, if Lexus, MB, Audi and yes, Acura, come out with attractive competing products, they will take market share from BMW's botched ones. Looks count too, whether one is spending $25K or $55K. I can't believe the *ss end of the new 6 is soooo ugly! Who approved that thing?
CD put it best with the new 5, saying something like "BMW has run aground on a styling reef" and that the company is "drifting off mission." What a shame!
Junkster, who thinks the 6 could have looked better.
12-08-2003, 11:45 AM
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Originally posted by Junkster
.... BMW tried to separate themselves from the other Germans, but just didn't really know how.....
.... BMW tried to separate themselves from the other Germans, but just didn't really know how.....
I wonder, with the money they're spending on bangling, could they have done that?
12-08-2003, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by larchmont
I know -- reliability!
I wonder, with the money they're spending on bangling, could they have done that?
I know -- reliability!
I wonder, with the money they're spending on bangling, could they have done that?
German reliability... has a weird tone to it. VW was reliable for a while there during the last decade before the big drop lately.
I know Lexus does this, in which they get a competitor's car and take it apart piece by piece to see what went into the car. They use the data for their own production. I wonder if the Germans ever do this.
Junkster, who loves this "banglin" term
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12-08-2003, 12:07 PM
#28
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Ah, but what if the sales figure go up despite the ruckess over the Bangled look? Do you think BMW would change things in the face of GROWING sales just to please the pundits? The thing here is that it's the "silent majority" that determines the fate of a car not some opiniated forums members (you should read some of the BMW forums on this subject) or car magazine editors.
As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes ugly sells. We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case with the Bangled cars. And don't forget that for the past couple of car model generations most others have been playing catch up. What happens when people start migrating to the new Lexus GS (or fill in with any new model coming out soon) when the car mag editors claim it's as good as the new 5 (ride/performance wise - looks will always be subjective). Do you blame the downfall on Bangle or because it finally has even competition?
As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes ugly sells. We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case with the Bangled cars. And don't forget that for the past couple of car model generations most others have been playing catch up. What happens when people start migrating to the new Lexus GS (or fill in with any new model coming out soon) when the car mag editors claim it's as good as the new 5 (ride/performance wise - looks will always be subjective). Do you blame the downfall on Bangle or because it finally has even competition?
12-08-2003, 12:18 PM
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Success or failure of Chris Bangle's designs will be determined by BMW's bottom line.
My father is on his second 5 series. He typically keeps his cars for three years and is due for a new one next year. After seeing the current designs, he is opting to keep his current 530i and not buy a new one. This is but an anecdote, but a strong one nonetheless.
I predict a drop in BMW sales and a rapid evolution away from the current very awkward designs. BMW customers (like Acura customers
) are discriminating and can tell the aesthetically balanced from just plain ugly. Sad, because the previous generation of BMWs produced arguably some of the most beautiful sedans ever.
My father is on his second 5 series. He typically keeps his cars for three years and is due for a new one next year. After seeing the current designs, he is opting to keep his current 530i and not buy a new one. This is but an anecdote, but a strong one nonetheless.
I predict a drop in BMW sales and a rapid evolution away from the current very awkward designs. BMW customers (like Acura customers
) are discriminating and can tell the aesthetically balanced from just plain ugly. Sad, because the previous generation of BMWs produced arguably some of the most beautiful sedans ever.
12-08-2003, 12:29 PM
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Originally posted by Spud
Success or failure of Chris Bangle's designs will be determined by BMW's bottom line.
My father is on his second 5 series. He typically keeps his cars for three years and is due for a new one next year. After seeing the current designs, he is opting to keep his current 530i and not buy a new one. This is but an anecdote, but a strong one nonetheless.
I predict a drop in BMW sales and a rapid evolution away from the current very awkward designs. BMW customers (like Acura customers) are discriminating and can tell the aesthetically balanced from just plain ugly. Sad, because the previous generation of BMWs produced arguably some of the most beautiful sedans ever.
Success or failure of Chris Bangle's designs will be determined by BMW's bottom line.
My father is on his second 5 series. He typically keeps his cars for three years and is due for a new one next year. After seeing the current designs, he is opting to keep his current 530i and not buy a new one. This is but an anecdote, but a strong one nonetheless.
I predict a drop in BMW sales and a rapid evolution away from the current very awkward designs. BMW customers (like Acura customers
) are discriminating and can tell the aesthetically balanced from just plain ugly. Sad, because the previous generation of BMWs produced arguably some of the most beautiful sedans ever.
12-08-2003, 12:33 PM
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Originally posted by biker
Ah, but what if the sales figure go up despite the ruckess over the Bangled look? Do you think BMW would change things in the face of GROWING sales just to please the pundits? The thing here is that it's the "silent majority" that determines the fate of a car not some opiniated forums members (you should read some of the BMW forums on this subject) or car magazine editors.
As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes ugly sells. We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case with the Bangled cars. And don't forget that for the past couple of car model generations most others have been playing catch up. What happens when people start migrating to the new Lexus GS (or fill in with any new model coming out soon) when the car mag editors claim it's as good as the new 5 (ride/performance wise - looks will always be subjective). Do you blame the downfall on Bangle or because it finally has even competition?
Ah, but what if the sales figure go up despite the ruckess over the Bangled look? Do you think BMW would change things in the face of GROWING sales just to please the pundits? The thing here is that it's the "silent majority" that determines the fate of a car not some opiniated forums members (you should read some of the BMW forums on this subject) or car magazine editors.
As I mentioned in another thread, sometimes ugly sells. We'll just have to wait and see if that's the case with the Bangled cars. And don't forget that for the past couple of car model generations most others have been playing catch up. What happens when people start migrating to the new Lexus GS (or fill in with any new model coming out soon) when the car mag editors claim it's as good as the new 5 (ride/performance wise - looks will always be subjective). Do you blame the downfall on Bangle or because it finally has even competition?
Yea, and I guess you can't blame everything on Bangle if BMW sales do fall since competitors are catching up in various products. But IF BMW does decide to make corporate changes, Bangle would be the easiest scapegoat in the company. The GS and the M45 are targeting the 5 series with a vengence, and I'm sure BMW feels the pressure.
Junkster, who wonders when the next GS is coming.
12-08-2003, 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
Ugly doesn't sell in volume.
Ugly doesn't sell in volume.
You also mentionned that BMW has seriously failed with Bangle at the design center. Please be cautious about what you're saying; you need to post proof to back up what you just said there.
Also, if it ever was true that BMW had experienced drops in sales for, say the 7 series which has been on the market longer than any other Bangle cars, are the drops in sales related to the Bangle design, or is it not more related to the economic recession in Germany, where it has hit hardest, related to an inferior build quality than the previous generation, or any other factor that doesn't concern Bangle?
It is easy to say arbitrarily that since you don't like the Bangle cars, BMW has failed, and that it is all because of Bangle. It's just like saying the Cubs lost in the playoffs because of the guy who caught the foul ball instead of 3rd baseman. It's stretching it kinda far, isn't it?
12-08-2003, 02:52 PM
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i'll toss in my two cents:
as a designer myself I actually like the new 5 and 7 series. i can't wait to see the re-designed 3 series come to market in 05. i think bmw's designs have been growing stale for quite some time they needed someone fresh with a new perspective to come in and give them a change.
i think the new designs sort of go back to the 50's where everyone wanted to make a car that looked like it was moving fast while it was sitting still. to me the new 5 and 7 series have that quality
the thing bmw has to battle is that in the past its cars have been pretty conservative. they had the brand image, good performance, and a neutral look that most people liked. they had a timeless look, it didn't matter if it was a 5 year old bmw, it still fit in and unless you really sat there and thought about it you wouldn't realize how old the car really was.
the new cutting edge looks will definitely date the cars as they get older. you can't keep a design like that around as long as they have kept the old ones, people will come to expect bmw to start putting out cutting edge designs more often now.
most people i've talked to love the new bmw's. i will admit however, that i'm no fan of the new x3, it doesn't really look like a bmw to me. the z4 is one thats been slow to grow on me, but with the new 5 and 7 series i think it fits in better with the lineup.
as a designer myself I actually like the new 5 and 7 series. i can't wait to see the re-designed 3 series come to market in 05. i think bmw's designs have been growing stale for quite some time they needed someone fresh with a new perspective to come in and give them a change.
i think the new designs sort of go back to the 50's where everyone wanted to make a car that looked like it was moving fast while it was sitting still. to me the new 5 and 7 series have that quality
the thing bmw has to battle is that in the past its cars have been pretty conservative. they had the brand image, good performance, and a neutral look that most people liked. they had a timeless look, it didn't matter if it was a 5 year old bmw, it still fit in and unless you really sat there and thought about it you wouldn't realize how old the car really was.
the new cutting edge looks will definitely date the cars as they get older. you can't keep a design like that around as long as they have kept the old ones, people will come to expect bmw to start putting out cutting edge designs more often now.
most people i've talked to love the new bmw's. i will admit however, that i'm no fan of the new x3, it doesn't really look like a bmw to me. the z4 is one thats been slow to grow on me, but with the new 5 and 7 series i think it fits in better with the lineup.
12-08-2003, 03:26 PM
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Originally posted by sauceman
...It is easy to say arbitrarily that since you don't like the Bangle cars, BMW has failed, and that it is all because of Bangle. It's just like saying the Cubs lost in the playoffs because of the guy who caught the foul ball instead of 3rd baseman. It's stretching it kinda far, isn't it?
...It is easy to say arbitrarily that since you don't like the Bangle cars, BMW has failed, and that it is all because of Bangle. It's just like saying the Cubs lost in the playoffs because of the guy who caught the foul ball instead of 3rd baseman. It's stretching it kinda far, isn't it?
What the execs will fail to point out IF BMW sales slide is the economical situation both in Europe and North America as well as the stupidity of i-drive in their upper level models.
I don't know about the numbers of the 7 series in their last model run compared to the new model, but if there was a drop, it can't solely blamed on the design. The i-drive would have to be on the top of the wrongs that the 7 series carries (they will revise it for the next year model, but probably just end up with the same i-drive as the 5 series).
Bangle, for the record, hasn't been much of a success in the design house from all the reports. After his design of the 7 series and the Z4, which were design by mostly Bangle, the 5 and the 6 have been designed by Bangle AND others within the design house of BMW. It's even said in CAR magazine that 3 series designs have been scrutinized by the top dogs at BMW so that there is no issues with the design once it is released. In the beginning, Bangle was given free reign in the design house, but now doesn't have such open freedom, which is a testament to BMW executives' less than stellar confidence in Bangle.
As for that GM comment, people are usually willing to buy ugly cars when there are huge price incentives and low interest financing, both of which companies like BMW, Lexus, and MB don't have.
Junkster, who doesn't blame Bangle for everything wrong at BMW.
12-08-2003, 03:40 PM
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Hehehe, I completely agree with you, Junkster, especially about the GM comment. I was just inserting an analogy there.
It is also a good idea that Bangle not have the sole responsibility of the design department. It would not be a good idea for any company to operate this way, as a matter of fact. After all, how can you justify to your shareholders that you have a loose gun in your company?
It is also a good idea that Bangle not have the sole responsibility of the design department. It would not be a good idea for any company to operate this way, as a matter of fact. After all, how can you justify to your shareholders that you have a loose gun in your company?
12-08-2003, 04:06 PM
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Originally posted by sauceman
Well, GM sure succeeds at it with most of their models except maybe for the Aztec which was brought just too far.
You also mentionned that BMW has seriously failed with Bangle at the design center. Please be cautious about what you're saying; you need to post proof to back up what you just said there.
Also, if it ever was true that BMW had experienced drops in sales for, say the 7 series which has been on the market longer than any other Bangle cars, are the drops in sales related to the Bangle design, or is it not more related to the economic recession in Germany, where it has hit hardest, related to an inferior build quality than the previous generation, or any other factor that doesn't concern Bangle?
It is easy to say arbitrarily that since you don't like the Bangle cars, BMW has failed, and that it is all because of Bangle. It's just like saying the Cubs lost in the playoffs because of the guy who caught the foul ball instead of 3rd baseman. It's stretching it kinda far, isn't it?
Well, GM sure succeeds at it with most of their models except maybe for the Aztec which was brought just too far.
You also mentionned that BMW has seriously failed with Bangle at the design center. Please be cautious about what you're saying; you need to post proof to back up what you just said there.
Also, if it ever was true that BMW had experienced drops in sales for, say the 7 series which has been on the market longer than any other Bangle cars, are the drops in sales related to the Bangle design, or is it not more related to the economic recession in Germany, where it has hit hardest, related to an inferior build quality than the previous generation, or any other factor that doesn't concern Bangle?
It is easy to say arbitrarily that since you don't like the Bangle cars, BMW has failed, and that it is all because of Bangle. It's just like saying the Cubs lost in the playoffs because of the guy who caught the foul ball instead of 3rd baseman. It's stretching it kinda far, isn't it?
12-08-2003, 04:14 PM
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Originally posted by tsx-mdxman
Are you implying GM has been truly successful selling ugly cars? I hope not! 'Cause it's simply not true. With respect to BMW, I'm merely voicing the same stuff about the new cars you've heard from the media and other folks. Though not everyone agrees the new Z4, 5, 6 and 7 are ugly, enough people think so that it's not a stretch to say Bangle and BMW have goofed. I'm glad the media is being more upfront about this now, as CD was in their review of the new 5 series (I think there was some hesitation at first in order to avoid being too reactionary). Ultimate blame resides with the BMW front office but since Bangle is their design chief, he's the first person fingers should be pointed at.
Are you implying GM has been truly successful selling ugly cars? I hope not! 'Cause it's simply not true. With respect to BMW, I'm merely voicing the same stuff about the new cars you've heard from the media and other folks. Though not everyone agrees the new Z4, 5, 6 and 7 are ugly, enough people think so that it's not a stretch to say Bangle and BMW have goofed. I'm glad the media is being more upfront about this now, as CD was in their review of the new 5 series (I think there was some hesitation at first in order to avoid being too reactionary). Ultimate blame resides with the BMW front office but since Bangle is their design chief, he's the first person fingers should be pointed at.
12-08-2003, 04:48 PM
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All this sales numbers talk is kinda getting out of hand.
You can't look at the first year sales of a model for measuring success, since these buys are mostly from loyalists who were waiting for the arrivial. These numbers from the first year can't be compared to other numbers due to various economical situations during the introduction of models.
I think the best way to measure the success of a new/redesign of a car is to compare the sales spanning at least 3 years to take into account any variables that might skew the numbers. Unless the numbers are in the extremes in sales numbers (MINI on one side vs. Aztek on the other end), it is hard to evaluate the success of a new car.
I wonder if there is a good way to analyze the success of a new launch in place for the industry?
Junkster, who thinks the sales of the 5 series might be better than what most people would guess.
You can't look at the first year sales of a model for measuring success, since these buys are mostly from loyalists who were waiting for the arrivial. These numbers from the first year can't be compared to other numbers due to various economical situations during the introduction of models.
I think the best way to measure the success of a new/redesign of a car is to compare the sales spanning at least 3 years to take into account any variables that might skew the numbers. Unless the numbers are in the extremes in sales numbers (MINI on one side vs. Aztek on the other end), it is hard to evaluate the success of a new car.
I wonder if there is a good way to analyze the success of a new launch in place for the industry?
Junkster, who thinks the sales of the 5 series might be better than what most people would guess.
12-08-2003, 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by gilboman
did you read the guy's quote and you need some proof/facts to back up your opinion..."cause its simply not true" you are basing this on what? sales numbers of "ugly" cars? (if you look at sales numbers, the "ugly" cars are doing just fine in sales)
did you read the guy's quote and you need some proof/facts to back up your opinion..."cause its simply not true" you are basing this on what? sales numbers of "ugly" cars? (if you look at sales numbers, the "ugly" cars are doing just fine in sales)
12-08-2003, 05:00 PM
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Originally posted by sauceman
Hehehe, I completely agree with you, Junkster, especially about the GM comment. I was just inserting an analogy there.
It is also a good idea that Bangle not have the sole responsibility of the design department. It would not be a good idea for any company to operate this way, as a matter of fact. After all, how can you justify to your shareholders that you have a loose gun in your company?
Hehehe, I completely agree with you, Junkster, especially about the GM comment. I was just inserting an analogy there.
It is also a good idea that Bangle not have the sole responsibility of the design department. It would not be a good idea for any company to operate this way, as a matter of fact. After all, how can you justify to your shareholders that you have a loose gun in your company?
If there was an in-house designer to head the next designs instead of Bangle, I think he or she would have had a better idea of how to change the BMW design without creating too many disssenters.
If it was a designer from a indie design house, which usually does study designs of various makes and models, he or she might have had a presentation of how the envisioned changes would come about. Then the execs could have had an idea of what they were in for.
I don't know why BMW would take such a irrational risk, even if it was for higher marketshare.
Junkster, who wonders what Bangle's CV looks like.