Junkster

I don't know...

http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=40961&dm=yes

It's not a huge drop, but blaming it on new model launch seems kinda like a dodge (not car, but dodging the real answer).

I'm not saying BMW is in dire straits, but it does need some correcting. Panke, the head of BMW, seemed kinda sick of answering questions about Bangle's future at BMW, and he doesn't seem to fully endorse Bangle by name.


Junkster, who wouldn't go as far to say the new BMWs are 'ugly'.

edit: this was also interesting...
http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?p..._code=06176564

1SICKLEX

Production GS to be shown Jan 6th at the Detroit Auto show. It will be the first in Lexus new styling direction. Hybrid offered as well as AWD. Sold in Fall as an 05 model. The first Lexus to be sold in Japan too.

Now Bangle has discovered nothing, it's just that Ford "NEW EDGE" styling (Focus, Mercury Couger) applied to BMWs. Bangle has also discovered cars that look GREAT on a computer can look like crap in person. He has no idea of fluidity. Continuous lines do not work on cars. Creases are supposed to compliment, not be the main feature (like the ugly BMW trunks).

GM is not succeeding, it continues to lose marketshare or stay flat.

tsx-mdxman

Heh, heh, looks like BMW didn't check with Gilbo first before applying a quick fix to the 7's exterior. I'm going to guess Bangle and company will be leaving sooner rather than later now.
I like the upcoming GS, big improvement. Picture is in January CD (one stop shopping, that issue - 10 Best, new TL and 5 series reviews and pic of probable future GS).

kiteboy

There's way too many variables in the sales equation to attribute any drops directly to styling. If sales tank, the execs will blame whoever they want (well, except maybe themselves!). Bangle does seem like the obvious choice.

The problem is, with the lead time of new designs, there are billions of dollars in the pipeline. As someone mentioned before, you don't see results in the first MY. By the time BMW figures this out, they could be seriously in the hole.

The upside is that their brand equity is huge and they can bank on that for a while. But the gravy-train only lasts so long.

Soze75

I've accepted the change and have grown to admire the new designs. I guess I've been brainwashed by the BMW marketing machine. Not really, I'm just one of those freaks who appreciates buildings/cars/women that many consider ugly or imperfect. Character and inner beauty are more attractive to me. Yes, buildings and cars included. Hell, I've been a wanabee M Coupe owner since it came out and that car is ugly as shit. I love it!! I give BMW a for having the balls to CHANGE what really wasn't broken at all. Their cars will always sell anyway. How many car mags across the globe claim BMW products to be "the best" in all aspects? Hopefully the new designs will scare away the poseur crowd, many of whom have no clue what to do with 320 horsepower. That is another thread altogether

zircon

the market is too unforgiving to make any major mistake. bmw made 2: i-drive and controversial styling. they will quickly revert designs and fix i-drive. poor sob's who have 2003 7 series.

majormojo

I don't think the new designs are all that bad. I have noticed that I often have a negative reaction to a newly redesigned car, but will grow to like it over time. I may be alone in that, but I think it happens with other people too. Also, I don't think the previous BMW models were all that great or exciting to begin with. Certainly not what I'd call beautiful or striking, save for maybe the Z3.

Because BMWs are considered high end and desirable cars, their new designs will automatically get a public stamp of approval, despite a bit of whining from some enthusiasts. In a few years the new models will be commonplace and everyone will wonder what the big fuss was about. I seriously doubt BMW will backtrack on their designs.

tsx-mdxman

I don't think there's much positive about these designs that will grow on people and I'm not sure I agree with you they have gained the public's approval. The press is complaining loudly, which has not happened before with BMW designs. And the firm is already backtracking on them - the new 3 series is way watered down with respect to Bangle design cues and the 7 is getting fixed.

sauceman

Here ya go, briefly:

-1981: Graduated Art Center College of Design of Passadena.

-1981-1985: Stylist, then assistant-director at the department of interior design at Opel.

-1985-1992: Director of exterior studio at Fiat, then of Centro Style. Chief designer for the Fiat Bravo/Brava, Coupe, Barchetta and Alfa 145.

-Since 1992: Director of design at BMW.

And this is where it gets interesting: Some older generation BMWs were Bangle creations as well, and no one has complained about it. Something tells me Bangle may be the Director of Design, but the call for a change in styling may have come from up higher.

This guy has been at BMW for over 10 years now. How many of us knew this? I'm sure many people thought he had arrived no earlier than 1999 and that he was on a powertrip trying to revolve BMW. Seems like he has been given a mandate.

biker

It doesn't seem to me that the same person who designed the E46 (current 3 series) one day could wake up the next day and came up with the new 7 series.

tsx-mdxman

I read an article about BMW/Bangle that noted he's been there 10 years. He discussed how he's "grown" the design staff (to about 300 now) and that's what he's most proud of (what about the products?). He probably gradually gained more influence and design freedom over that period (which now appears to have been rescinded). I don't think the guy's on a powertrip and it's a fact he did not design all of the recent cars personally. He's just plain wrongheaded. I also wouldn't expect him to personally design all the products but he is the chief designer and bears much responsibility. The front office probably mandated he come up with something distinctive and new, which he has, it's just an ugly theme. Of course the front office had to approve everything.
Bangle did the 7 and Z4 and the other designs followed those two and incorporated his design cues, such as the ugly trunk concept, which is apparently his hallmark. The 6 is supposedly the work of a team at BMW's studio in California. Bangle recently responded to criticism of the new 6 by shrugging his shoulders and saying he and his team have given up trying to design cars that look good in print. This is sad, because, one, so many people are questioning his efforts and, two, because it reflects a certain arrogance on his part. I think the results of his labors are a joke at best, an insult at worst.

dnb

I've always wondered about that remark. The cars considered design classics (e.g., old Jaguars, Ferraris and Mercurys) have looked good in print.

Junkster

Great find Sauceman, I couldn't find that all afternoon.

I did know that he was around for quite some time, but did not have the degree of freedom that he's has until lately. Bangle is known as the head designer but there are his cronies who seem to be even more guilty. I've read articles that the two most guilty designs, the Z4 and the 7 (I think I can deal with the 5, at least it's a great car under that weird mug), were penned by two designers under Bangle with emphasis on the 'flame' theme. The guy responsible for the 7 has moved down the chain due to the reaction of the press on his design, so that the Z4 was designed by another in the studio. The weird line that bisects the car behind the front wheel well on the doors was purely Bangle on a design that looked bad already. Slate magazine reported some of these.

I could see why Bangle's designs seem more weird than others, since he was a interior designer for a couple of european companies.

Another post and some car reviewers have said this, but do people in Bangle's gang fear the possibility of drawing a straight line on their car?
I guess I will send a ruler to Bangle for Christmas.

Junkster, who thinks Mickey Kaus' articles on Bangle are hilarious.

Spud

Interesting fact. But the bottom line is that, on a message board of auto enthusiasts, the new BMW designs are highly controversial and are, in general, very poorly accepted.

Someone posted further back that because BMW is a prestige marque the public will eventually accept these designs as the current fashion and all will be well.

I have an opposite view. BMW customers are generally discerning and enthusiastic drivers. Of course there are the well-endowed pathetic sheep that will buy up anything a prestige marque serves up (same happens in the fashion world). But if the designs are not well accepted, the core buyers of BMW, the driving enthusiasts, will look elsewhere.

So whether it's Chris Bangle or someone else that designs BMW's lineup is irrelevant. What is of concern is that the new BMWs incorporate highly eccentric design elements that, in the view of many, compromise the overall aesthetic look of the cars.

You can't make something beautiful by stamping BMW on it. BMW can be applauded for taking risks in the name of automotive innovation. But I think the two most recent (designs and i-drive) are in the process of backfiring. The challenge BMW faces is improving on a car lineup that flirted with perfection. I don't think they have met that challenge with the current lineup and will pay for it.

majormojo

You make some good points, Spud. However, I'm not so sure that the driving enthusiasts outnumber the pathetic sheep amongst all BMW owners. Well, actually, you didn't say "outnumber" you said they were "core buyers", which isn't necessarily the same thing. I suppose it's possible for the core buyers to be in the minority.

So, continuing to play devil's advocate a bit:

Isn't it possible that the driving enthusiasts will be more swayed by performance than by style? It's not like the previous generations of BMWs were anything special to look at. The enthusiasts bought them because they were great to drive, the sheep bought them because they were expensive. BMW sold some cars and everyone went home happy. (Except larchmont).

I agree that you can't make something beautiful by stamping BMW on it. But you can certainly change the public perception of what "beautiful" is by doing that. Beauty, style, design - those concepts are all about perception, not absolutes. Maybe BMW can pull it off.

Additionally, I think it's nice to see BMW flirting with some creative ideas just for the sake of fashion. They've had these typically Teutonic staid, practical, conservative models for so long, a little risk-taking is long overdue. They needed to lighten up already.

Spud

I agree that enthusiasts will be influenced by the performance aspect of BMWs, notwithstanding questionable styling.

If you're correct, and what is perceived as controversial one year is generally accepted fashion the next, I will be happy. The world is a happier place when I yearn for a BMW. As much as I love my TSX (and, believe me, I do...), I am a supporter of the BMW philosphy/concept/approach to car building. I simply think they are the best prestige carmaker out there and I'd be sad to see these designs lead them into decline.

That is why I'm being vocal about the current designs. I want to like them, but I simply can't. It's kinda like if you're beautiful girfriend gets a really bad haircut and starts wearing wierd clothes. She's still the same person inside, but it's hard to see past the new look....

captainjack

Yes, but hair grows back on its own and she can change clothes every day.

Not true with a $60-75K sedan.

majormojo

You permit your women to wear clothing?! How disgusting! What's next? Allowing them to earn profit? Arrrggghhhhh!!

:-*

For a couple of bucks, you get a weird haircut and waste your life away.

1SICKLEX

Bangle joined the company but did not make any decisions 10 years ago. He was part of the design team. NOW he is the head. Bangle was influencial in the Z3 rear touch up, the eliminating of black Bumpers on BMWs, angel eye headlights, but those designs were in running when he came to BMW (older generations).

The 7 series had to have the 1st lease deal in history to get them moving. They sell as slow in molasses in Europe.

I fear, where people used to look with envy when they saw a person in a BMW, they will now look with a laugh, as the cars ugly and ungainly.

sauceman

Well, I definitely read from my source that he joined BMW as director of design. Of course, my source could be wrong, but what about yours? Are you sure about what you're saying?

1SICKLEX

Let me go check sauceman....I could be wrong.

tsx-mdxman

I think Sauceman is right, Isicklex but I don't think that matters much. It merely makes makes a better case for placing most of the blame on the lame looking new Bimmers on Bangle. (How's that for a little alliteration?) I read the first BMW Bangle was completely responsible for was the 7. Sauceman alluded earlier to his having designed some of the previous generation cars - I am fairly certain that is not true, at least not any cars that were new from the ground up. His next car was the Z4. The 5 and 6 were designed by people working for him but it's obvious they incorporated his silly themes - strange/ugly looking trunks (Bangle has an excuse for the one on the 7, claiming it has some enhanced functionality due to its shape), silly looking headlight treatments, disparate folds and curves that go nowhere and the weird double pod dashes first seen in the 7, to name a few.
It's pretty bad when CD says they "just wish we didn't miss the old 5 so much." Even our own Buff Daddy is disappointed.

zircon

Bangle is much like Wayne Cheery at GM - long-serving and progressively deteriorating wrt style. BMW will do the same thing GM did to Cherry - heave ho. He is much younger, of course, so they will do it in a more progressive way - such as:

Mr. Bangle has reached all of his desired accomplishments atBMW, and has opted to join a growing Russian carmaker....

kiteboy

By comparison, I think M-B has done a much better job of evolving their designs from the boxy look a decade ago. The SL is absolutely gorgeous and has no counterpart at BMW.

phile

MB had a few misses, but they're certainly not on the streak that BMW seems to currently be on. I can only think of the M-Class SUVs and the new SLK (looks like a goblin) that I think are ugly.