dom

And thats my point. They have to do a better job of seperating themselves. But the engine shouldn't be a top priority. As its not with other brands.

wackura

Is there literaly little differentiation between a loaded Pilot and an MDX or just little that they could perceive? A lot of luxury features might seem small and unsubstantial but end up raising the price a lot.

$35k for a new Accord? Was is gold plated?

CarbonGray Earl

I didn't quite find the humor in that. Anyways, Honda is one manufacturer that is thinking about pedestrian safety here in America. So I'm not "figuring pedestrian into crumple zones" but Honda is....specifically, the hood and the bumper are energy absorbing specifically for pedestrian accidents. The 2008 probably takes pedestrian safety to a higher level.

http://corporate.honda.com/safety/de...?id=pedestrian

I believe the toyota camry has a bulbous hood for that reason too. The BMW you provided is a RWD vehicle. FWD vehicles tend to have more of their components up front, hence it pushes everything forward. the result? More front overhang.

wackura

If you didn't find the humor in it then how did you conclude the intent was humor? I'm thinking about the physics of bones versus car; if the impact has caused the car to crumple up, just imagine what must have happened to the bones.

The BMW pictured on page 3 puts the front tire inches away from the front of the car, so either BMW is out to slaughter pedestrians or your theory that they set the wheels back for their benefit is probably false.

CarbonGray Earl

How did you conclude that I even read into your intentions? I didn't. I just stated I didn't find humor there. So now that you said you didn't intend humor and I didn't find it, then we can agree that it wasn't funny right? I see my assertion was correct.

Just to be clear with you, its not my personal "theory". I merely am stating what I have found in my own research. For all intents and purposes, I'm not arguing with you. With the best of intentions, I encourage you to research into the standards that Europe is requiring manufacturers to put in place. You can look up NCAP, pedestrian safety, etc. Even look up Honda's "safety for everyone" campaign, and they have their ideas on this subject. From what I have read from your posts, its a bit more complex an issue than you think or have at least let on. I did my own research, I shared, and I expect you to be responsible for your own reading if you are to really refute what I am saying.

Unfortunately, a RWD BMW with an inline 6 is not the correct comparison if you are to call out Honda designers on the FWD v6 Accord. The space in front of the wheels is dependent on engine placement and the placement of major components under the hood, which can be and is distinctly different in FWD and RWD cars.

To reiterate, its HONDA'S theory and not mine. Its not personal.

Technically, Honda didn't set the wheels back, they added space forward of the front wheels to specifically adhere to pedestrian safety standards. That space is largely determined by the placement of the engine.

Being a FWD and being a Honda's, the engine typically sits right over the front axle. This fact, and the fact that they have to adhere to new pedestrian safety standards, makes the body in front of the wheels bigger and more bulbous....yes, the front overhang included. They added dead space between the engine and hood/bumper, and did not move the wheels back. This and more collapsible sheetmetal/bumpers make the impact less traumatic, and less likely to kill on impact. The BMW can place their engine aft of the front wheels, giving them more space for a collapsible pedestrian zone (and better weight distribution). To your point, from pictures, it seems the Mazda 6 is a FWD that can look nice while incoroporating the NCAP standards. However, I am only explaining why the Accord looks as it does.

I don't see a need to continue this as I am not arguing for one side of the other. I'm just tried to explain what I have read from manufacturers, the automobile rags, and various websites on this subject. I shared what I can, and am gladly support you in your right to disagree with Honda, Benz, European NCAP Pedestrian Safety, etc, but I of course, encourage you to research the subject, and come up with your own opinions. I think for me its best I stick to what they have to say.

wackura

I can apreciate that RWD might make different layouts possible. I aplaud you for researching the matter so thouroughly, unfortunately, I myself stand little to profit from doing so and can only speculate on such things.

archknight

Everyone is giving their speculation or reasoning on the new TSX, it's appearance, powertrain, etc. My theory is that since the new Accord Tourer Concept has made an appearance, the production models will bare further resemblance to the Sports4 seeing as how well it was received. Furthermore, in order for Acura to further itself from Honda I believe the first A-VTEC engine will make its appearance as well, seeing as its suppose to deliver more power and torque compared to the current one. If they can squeeze 237hp from a naturally aspirated 2.2L in the S2000, they can definitely get more than that out of something with a larger displacement. As for the K23T and SH-AWD, it just takes the right modifications to turn this into a monster as stated in this article:

http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-article?article_id=687615

Also, with Acura stating that they wanted to move more upscale and competitors offering AWD or RWD in their entry level vehicles even as an option they can't afford to sit on this. My guess is the base will be FWD (220hp+) and their will be a Type-S sporting SH-AWD (280hp+ K23T or larger displacement turbo). The reason I am saying there may be a larger displacement is because the K23T was Acura's first attempt at a turbocharged engine, after 2 years of having the RDX on the market I am sure they have perfected it. Acura could drop the 3.0L or 3.2L from past products but it would be a step backwards unless the engines where totally reworked to produce far more power.

Texas

[QUOTE=loulinjai]My opinions for the next TSX:

5.) SH-AWD is possible, but highly not likely in my opinion. it's even more not likely if there is no turbo, OTOH, the TL is more likely to receive SH-AWD
6.) Possible Couple around a year after the sedan launch?



….All new Acura model changes will have SH-awd…told by general mgr…why do I bother…This has been posted several times...was told coupe coming but also told lately, may not make it??

archknight

Also as far as price is concerned I would expect the base form of the new TSX to fall just below $30K and the Type-S to come in somewhere near or slightly above $32K, both without Navi. Alot of people are saying that it will reach TL territory but the new model will definitely have a base of $38K seeing as the current Type-S carries the 3.5L at this price. If the new Type-S has the 3.7L expect it to be over $40K, especially since I would expect this engine to be tuned upwards of 350+hp. If anything, we all know Acura is capable of squeezing large amounts of power from smaller engines, with these large V6's power shouldn't be a problem.

Acura has mentioned the 4.2L V8 several times, I assume the engine will make an appearance with redesign of the RL or it may be bored out for larger displacement. In any case, I am looking forward to the Geneva Auto Show for the first glimpse of the production EuroAccord. Then again, with the new Acura Design studio in California, the American/Chinese market may see something completely different from the this Accord. Hopefully, Honda is listening to it's faithful and give us a car worthy of the TSX name.

dom

They have?

Only thing I've heard from Honda about any engine larger than a V6 was the V10 confirmed for the next NSX.

dereksmalls

Some interesting comments on this board about Acura and their direction. From what I've heard, it looks like HondAcura will be taking the Acura brand further upscale and the new TSX will probably reflect that (SH-AWD, pricing, etc...).

Additional proof of that is word that the CSX in Canada is being discontinued, and the news that Honda will start selling the Civic Si sedan in Canada. The CSX/EL were successful in Canada because the market preferred smaller cars, but by eliminating that line (and after having killed the RSX/Integra), you'd have to think that Acura is looking to line up more with the likes of Lexus, BMW, and Audi.

wackura

I don't know, the TSX is a Euro Accord and probably will be again, and the TL is a USDM Accord with frosting. If those Honda models are not designed AWD then it's hard to imagine how the Acura versions would be.

Another thought just crossed my mind, if the next TL is based off the new Accord, which offers a coupe, doesn't that increase the likelihood that an Acura coupe would be offered for the TL as opposed to the TSX?

Everyone says that a TSX station wagon would hurt the Acura image, but if that's true then why do Audi and BMW, Acura's direct competition, offer them?

dereksmalls

Other companies have done similar things in the past. The A4 was on the same platform as the Passat in previous generations. The A3 is based on the Golf/Rabbit/Jetta/Bora platform.

It's not impossible that Honda designed the new Accord platform to accept SH-AWD, but is choosing not to offer it in certain models.

I don't think a TSX wagon would be bad for their image, and it might help differentiate the TSX from the rest of the lineup.

Really, that's the key: How are they going to differentiate the brands (Honda vs Acura) and the models (TSX vs TL vs RL). The German makes have their stories straight, and have been consistent over the years. Acura has always had problems with their brand/model story.

LuvMyTSX

You'd think so, but the Accord has been available in coupe version for years, but the last Acura coupe was the CL. You'd think they would have made a TL coupe once they nixed the CL.

dom

Interesting. I thought that might happen when I heard about the Si sedan last week. If the CSX sold well I'm sure it would have been left in the lineup. As it stands, customers were no longer willing to pay that premium for a dolled up Civic.

LuvMyTSX

Eh, yes and no. BMW doesn't really have a lower-end company, unless you count Mini. Benz didn't either until they merged with Chrysler (which has since been undone). Audi/VW, on the other hand, has differentiated to a point, but IMO it is questionable because of the Phaeton. IMO the Phaeton was too close a competitor with Audi's luxury cars and was a stupid move to produce in the first place. Also, one could think that VWs are just cheaper Audis - they do have many of the same features, and the Passat even had (not sure if it still does have) AWD. So IMO, BMW and Benz can't really be compared to Honda/Acura in the differentiation arena, since all things are not equal.

wackura

I googled "acura cl platform" and multiple sites say it was based on the TL/Accord platform, so it was the very thing we're talking about. It seems that if Acura doesn't sell a particular body style well they kill it altogether rather than improve whatever it was that made it suck. The CL looked weird, and the RSX wasn't a luxury car and had a Honda level price tag, but you'd think those are easy things to fix. Now Acura is missing a coupe and an actual sports car.

dereksmalls

I always thought they really blew it by pricing the CSX Type-S at $33K CDN. It didn't make sense when in the US you could get a Civic Si sedan for just a bit more than the Si coupe.

When I bought my TSX last year, I asked the sales manager about the Si Sedan, and he said that it was causing headaches at the Honda/Acura Canada offices. They couldn't have an Si Sedan that would perform better than the CSX.

What's unfortunate, is that from what I've heard, the Civic chassis was better off with the K20 from the base CSX, the 1.8 in the base Civic being too underpowered.

Anyway, all that to say that the TSX will be Acura's entry level model, even in Canada.

LuvMyTSX

Exactly. I bet a coupe would have sold like hotcakes had it followed a similar body style to the 3G TL.

mrgold35

Touring sedan or station wagons seem to be the preferred vehicle for Europe and Asia. For some reason, station wagons have a negative image that screams “Soccer Mom” or “Griswall's Family Vacation (old Chevy Chase movie for the youngsters on the forum)” or basic grocery getter. I can’t remember the last time I saw a BMW/Audi/Mercedes/VW station wagon on my morning commute, just Mazda’s, Magnums and old Ford Taurus.

SUV/SAV seems to be the North American thing. I remember the days before SUVs or mini vans. Everyone had 4dr car(s) and/or a station wagon back in the Brady Bunch days. SUVs/trucks/crossovers now seem to have an image of an active lifestyle of traveling, sports, and other physical outdoor activities. Your “cool points” go way up in a sporty SUV compared to a station wagon.

An Acura station wagon will be a hard sell to the North American public. My next vehicle will be a MDX or similar unless there is a drastic change in the image of the station wagon.

wackura

Maybe its a geographical thing, up in Seattle we have a lot of this



and this



these cars don't say Griswall to me.

The funny thing about the SUV and crossover seeming cool is that they have become so ubiquitous that the notion that cool people drive them is a mathematical impossibility.

In my mind a BMW station wagon is 1000x less soccer than the Lexus RX330 by virtue of being a BMW primarily.

Just look at this happy customer:

loulinjai

funny thing about "luxury brands". we have rumors of the CSX being discontinued, and Acura trying to upscale it's image by discontinuing cars at the lower end of price range. Yet, other luxury brands such as BMW and Benz are battling for the entry market, by offering B-Class and 1-series.

wackura

It must not have occurred to them that there's a profitable middle ground until Lexus came along. They put a smudge on their shine by puting their product in the hands of the middle class, but that's me and I'm all for blurring the lines.

dereksmalls

I'm not so sure that the B-Class and 1-series are really "entry level". Check out the pricing on those cars. You can check out the A3 as well. And I don't mean the base MSRP. Just try optioning an A3 with the same level of equipment that a TSX has. Sticker shock is almost guaranteed. All indications are that the 1-series will be priced in the same way as the A3.

dereksmalls

Especially if it's an M5 wagon!

wackura

Fuck ya, look at it

Power1Pete

M5 wagon...

archknight

http://www.thetorquereport.com/2007/05/what_does_the_future_hold_for.html

This is one of the original articles where the 4.2L was mentioned months ago, seems since the others I had posted on other sites have been removed. When I first saw this I saw it as just rumor as well but if you can make a V10 and u supposedly testing a V8 a few years back, I wouldn't be surprised. Usually Honda hints at its intentions for a few years before they actually employ and release any information, so I find it very unlikely a V8 wouldn't make an appearance before the V10.

/forums/showthread.php?t=61799

Actually if u remember the Mugen RL a few years back, it packed a 4.0L V8 spewing 590hp (naturally aspirated). Think of this way, when you have a low level company like Hyundai introducing a V8 and two RWD cars (New Tiburon/Genesis), I don't think you would sit back and let your luxury line lack one. We know they are capable of creating this type of engine, question is will they use them or ignore them to keep their "green" status?

rza49311

iTrader: (1)

dom

Its a chop, nothing more. Does anyone actually think Acura would make the next TSX look like a 4 door North American Accord coupe?

wackura

The next TSX can't possible be the USDM Accord for numerous reasons I can't bother myself to list off, but among the most obvious, what would the TL be derived from?

dom

Ideally a RWD platform that has nothing to do with the Accord.

But I'll get back to reality now.

jlukja

, , or

xjohnkdoex

iTrader: (2)

funny. that pic makes the accord look like a newer and larger mitsubishi lancer.

wackura

I believe that hack photo is based off of this image

LuvMyTSX

Well doesn't Japan also have the Honda Inspire, which is the same body style as the USDM Accord? In that case, maybe the "chopped" photo would be an Inspire, not a TSX (or Euro Accord).

dom

Isn't it sad that when someone uses the acronym RWD and Honda in the same sentence they're either crazy, delirious or high.

Power1Pete

At least we have S2000 CR in the US.