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Hello everyone. New owner of an extremely low mileage Garage kept 1996 Acura TL 3.2. The owner passed away, his two daughters got the car, they fought over it for seven years, then their attorney made them sell it and split the money. While, I got it for a low price and it is in fantastic condition, it has had a few problems due to sitting so long and the overall age of the vehicle. I have read through these forums for the past month. I cannot find a specific article that talks about my issue. Many neither are similar, but just not the same. And yes, I know how to use search. I was experiencing water on the passenger side floor. Before everyone jumps up and says heater core problem, or Clogged EVAP drain tube or clogged climate system condenser drain tube, or a bad windshield seal, please know that it is not those issues. I also do not have a sunroof, so it is not a clogged sunroof drain tube.
I have done extensive testing. I have not torn apart the car yet. Here is the situation: If it is raining, or I run the hose against the front windshield, or I drive through a car wash, if I leave the climate control system off. I have no issues. it is a hot sunny day and I have the climate control system off, I have no issues. If it is a hot or cold day, if it is dry outside or raining or if I run a hose on the front windshield and I have the heater on with fresh air or recirculation blowing on my feet or through the dashboard vents at chest level I have no problems.
if it is hot and dry outside, and I use the defroster with or without air conditioning on, with recirculate or fresh air, with the temperature turned up, or all the way down, I have no problems.
if I run the defroster on a hot day and run a hose on the front windshield, or if I run the defroster, while driving down the road in the rain, or if I turn on the defroster, while I drive through a car wash, I will get water leaking into the vehicle.
I saw a post that indicated if I pull off the wiper arms, and the Cowell vent cover, and it’s plastic screws, that I may see a hole or something where maybe a grommet has dried up or come loose or there may be a gap around some wires going through the firewall. This does not appear to be unknown issue or common complaint. Traditionally, I wrench on older American classic cars. If you run a hose down into the cowl vent, there is no way for water to enter the vehicle and get stuck there that I am aware of or have ever experienced. This car sat in a driveway, uncovered for seven years and a hot, dry southern California climate. However, I think the owner washed the car with a hose every once in a while. When I got the car, there were no leaves or debris blocking the cowl vent or under the hood area but there was a lot of water on the floor.
I am aware of all the electronics that are in the area behind the glove box. Of course, I do not like the idea of water running over them.
I have spent hours trying to figure this problem out. I should point out that the heater, ventilation, and defrost system, all work flawlessly.
Minus whatever this leak is.
I thought for sure it was a windshield issue based on what other people had said. But it was an OEM windshield and was in the garage for the prior 20+ years I think. The car has roughly 20,000 miles on it. As tempted as I am to sell it, my neighbor sold it to me at a ridiculously low price to keep it nearby because it reminds her of her father. So I’m stuck with the car. I thought it was strange that there was water on the floor on the passenger side when I got the car. I assumed that maybe the car sat in the driveway and just ran for an hour with the air-conditioning on, and the tube got clogged in. It leaked into the cabin. But it was just too much water. Fast forward to last week Los Angeles got hammered with rain storms, and I drove the car to get some new wiper blades. It filled up with water again, which I thought was strange. After drying out, extensively, photographing, and video recording, I parked it outside during the rain the last two or three days. Surprisingly no water entered the vehicle. my pool is 2 inches higher so I know that it rained a lot but the car stayed dry. It has been sunny and dry today, so I moved the car into the front yard. Left the entire system off and ran a hose all over the windshield for quite some time. Nothing ever leaked into the vehicle. Then I tried running just the air conditioner, or putting it on full auto mode, and it never filled up at all with water. I tried every possible combination of fan, fresh air vent, climate control position for over two hours. I ran the hose around the air conditioning, and nothing leaked at all. I put it in defrost mode, and nothing happened but the defroster came on. I tried it with the temperature high and the temperature low. Nothing was leaking. When I got the hose and put it on the windshield, water started flooding in on the floor. Again, only in defrost mode.
of course, it doesn’t rain a lot, but it is cold in the mornings and I do need to run the defrost to be able to see out of the vehicle. I guess that’s OK as long as it doesn’t raining outside. I imagine that if I run the front water squirter while running the wipers, it will probably also leak if I have the defroster on. So I feel like I have to find a way to get the defrost to work when there is water on the vehicle.
I do not have a factory service manual, but I did order one off eBay. I tried online, but they stopped working. I am hoping somebody here reads this, and can provide pictures or a step-by-step guide or a YouTube video, showing me what to look for and what to do. I can see where the mechanism is under the dashboard and yeah, that looks impossible to get out. I do not know what you call the climate control box that’s mounted under the dash, but if I have to remove that entire system, and the dashboard to get to it, That will not work for me. However, if there is some hole that I can patch or repair or weld shut that will prevent that from happening, that could also work.
although I cannot see it, I’m guessing there is a door that opens and closes that directs fresh air inside the vehicle when the defroster is on, so you don’t have to keep the windows rolled down like the old classic cars with their stale air systems.
however, I did extensive testing with the climate control system running in. I believe every other possible combination without the defroster on and it never leaked when I ran the hose on the windshield. There must be a hole or something.
once I solve this, I’ll research why there was water in the trunk after a heavy rain.
Well I’m kind of going to jump in and say it might be related to the heater core, but in a not too obvious way. I’m working from memory and at that it was a 98 Accord but there were as best I recall two hoses from the heater core that passed through the firewall on the passenger side. The hoses connected on the engine side to short brass nipples with hose clamps; same on the interior of the car. Those brass tubes passed through rubber grommets in the firewall. I could see that if these grommets were bad water could leak into the interior of the car. But why the rather unique set of circumstances needed? On that I’m baffled.
Thanks for the reply, John. The volume of water that was flooding in was similar to the volume coming out of my hose...a lot. Unlikely that even if both firewall holes had NO grommets that the water would have reached that. To be honest, I think that when water hits the windshield, and goes into the cowl area, it is below the hood, and there is a hood gasket. I don't think (I would not think, anyway) that water hitting the windshield would be routed to the engine compartment side of the firewall AND make it into two tiny holes. Even if they had no grommets and there was a 1/2" hole with a 3/8 pipe in it leaving a small gap that this volume of water could get in. I literally turned on and off the hose for each test I did, 15 minutes apart. I tested every option over a 2 hour period. It wasn't until I turned on the defroster, put the hose on the windshield using the wiper arm to hold it in place above the passenger side and then turned on the hose that I began to see the water come in. The defrost had to be on in order for water to enter. I had the hose running for a long time without defrost on, and zero leaks. Plus the rain test last night with the car off, and the car wash test with no defrost on, plus driving in the rain without running the defrost.
I'm inspired to rip the car apart Saturday morning and look around, but I just don't see how after all those tests with all the water that it could get in where you suggest at that volume. But I do greatly appreciate you replying, John. It means a lot. I assumed this post would be here a few weeks before anyone would see it.
It is possible I suppose that there is a hole that is clogged or some sheetmetal rusted through under the plastic thing under the windshield. However if that were true, I would think that it would also leak when the defrost was off and water was being poured on the cowl or going through a car wash.
Is there anything that opens and closes when in defrost mode that only opens and closes during defrost mode that you or anyone is aware of? Until I have a factory service manual, or someone responds, I'm just guessing.
They say a picture is worth 1000 words. Here’s what I have discovered: there appears to be two doors on a climate control system next to the fan. A lower door opens and closes. You hit recirculate, that door lifts up and sucks the air in from by the passengers feet. An upper door that appears to be towards the firewall And above the fan also exists. I believe how the system works is that when you have it on defrost mode, the upper door is opened. When you have the defrost on, and you click the recirculate button, the lower door raises up and just for a second I can see the upper door going forward as if to close any opening. It seems that when I have the car in any mode other than the defrost on and in fresh air mode I do not get water into the car. It seems that only when the defrost mode is on and the default fresh air sequence is initiated, do I get water coming into the heater box. If I lay down in the car and turn the defrost into recirculate mode, the lower door opens and water, which has been flooding into the car, stops. That is because the upper door closes, and the lower door opens and just drips out whatever is left.
The pictures are attaching, will show the lower door closed, the lower door open, which provides a view into the box with the white squirrel cage fan on the left and the upper door closed, and then some pictures after I shut the water off where water is dripping off of the heater box and wire loom underneath the heater box.
This is the lower door closed laying on my back. Looking up This is the lower door open with the squirrel cage on the left and the upper door closed. This photo shows water dripping off the lower edge of the heater box and drips down below on the wires right above the carpet Shows water dripping off the box and the wire loom that is directly below the heater box
Is there anything that opens and closes when in defrost mode that only opens and closes during defrost mode that you or anyone is aware of? Until I have a factory service manual, or someone responds, I'm just guessing.
There is something called the Mode Door Actuator which controls what vents have air flow, i.e. floor, panel or front, defrost, or any combination of those. There is also a recirculation door actuator which controls the intake of air into the system, either bringing outside air in or using inside air in recirculation. Have you looked at some of the online parts sources to get a diagram of the heating/cooling system? I wonder if the mode door actuator might not be able to make full travel of the door to its proper position. But I'm still at a loss of the water entry point.
Also, and I suspect you are aware of this, but the A/C turns on when defrost is selected and that in turn creates moisture in the unit as it dehumidifies. That however is a relatively small amount of water
Something else that perhaps deserves a peak and I offer this as a "out of the box" thought. In the thread at Wet carpet I found the following entry:
"I had the same issue and resolved it last week. There is a piece of foam that is worn out under the wiper motor cover (not sure what you call it).
1. Open the hood
2. Remove both wiper arms where they bolt on
3. Remove the plastic hold downs from the plastic wiper motor cover, there are approximately 4-5 larger ones and approximately 7-8 small ones
4. Now lift the cover up a little and you will see an oval hole that goes directly into the ventilation system, you should also see part of the cabin filter.
The foam on the bottom of the cover that you just moved is worn out and letting water run inside.
5. I just glued a piece of foam on the metal (car body) where the worn foam met the metal and put everything back together.
While you have everything apart you can run some water down the windshield and will see that it runs toward the hole.
We had a lot of rain this week and all seems good, I put the floor mat back in today"
I hate to think of the potential task of getting the wiper arms off of a 27 year old buggy!
thank you John - yes, very much familiar with a/c evaporator creating condensation and needing a way out through a tube at the bottom of the box. That tube wouldn't be able to handle the volume from a rainstorm or car wash, however - just the few drops the A/C generates a second. As mentioned, it does not leak when running a/c on full blast in any of the modes or at any temperature or even with defrost unless water is introduced to the cowl area and on defrost mode.
Thank you John I saw that thread as well, I think it was in the Gen 2 or Gen 3 forum, which is where I got the idea. Once I saw the reference to a cabin air filter, I knew it was not for my Gen 1 TL 3.2.
Also I looked online at pictures, PDFs, and through about 10,000 threads looking for an images of the climate control system for this year, and found zero. They all were later model TL or other ones.
Is the Acura TL the same as a Honda EX or something like that? Surely they share a lot of the same parts? Maybe I should be searching for a 1996 Honda [insert model here].
The reference to the cabin air filter may not apply to your vehicle, but I was thinking more along the lines of conceptually if you have a similar foam panel that has degraded over time, and thus allowing passage of water. I still can't envision why this would occur under the very specific conditions you outline and not all the time.
The is a good set of diagrams at a parts place that I found. See Speedy Acura Parts (Hood). I'm not saying what I linked to will supply an answer but maybe poking around some of the other vehicle areas at the left panel yields some ideas. For instance, item 17, valve drain, is it functioning properly? Have you thought about the overall cabin pressure in the various modes? Could there be a slight vacuum in the leak situation whereas a slight positive pressure in conditions where there is no lean?
Most cars in defrost mode turn ON the AC compressor and I would assume that is the case with your 96 TL. Do you also have a means of then turning OFF the compressor? I brought up the 98 Accord because I would suspect some level of similarity and as best I recall, I could not knock off the AC compressor after going to defrost mode. I always hated that because once the windshield was clear nd you went to only heat mode, the windshield rapidly fogged up due to the moisture in the AC system that had been created by using the defrost function.
I really appreciate your time and your reply. I will definitely look at that site shortly. Still dark outside where I live.
as you, perhaps, can tell, I am highly analytical. What I am seeking, which I may not find is something that explains step-by-step. What happens when you go in the various climate control modes. For example:Push defrost button.Defrost light engagesFan speed increasesCompressor activatesSecondary radiator fan engages. actuator for fresh air vent engagesActuator for defrost vent engages And So on.
i’m sure there is something like this in the service manual, which I do not have yet.I’m thinking outside the box… For example, if it is in fact, a door that is opening when it shouldn’t or a vacuum leak, which is a very good suggestion because I do hear some sort of a squeaking sound in the dash when the vehicle is running, then perhaps I can unplug something to prevent a door from opening as a temporary fix or perhaps there is a $10 vacuum line I can replace, etc. If there is a vacuum line diagram for the system that would be great. Chances are if it is vacuum line related, it would be extremely difficult to access under there. But in the videos I took, I think I could possibly reach some electrical wires and disable an actuator. even if I had to buy really long needle nose pliers to reach, it would still be cheaper than taking out the entire dash.
OK the link to that part site is pretty great but unfortunately, this is the best I could find. I prefer photos over sketches, but I get what they’re trying to do here. Having never seen one of these before, it certainly looks complex. There appears to be Mechanisms to open and close some flapper doors in this diagram, but the diagram is pointing at it as if you were inside the car, and I really need to see the other side that goes on the firewall. But I do see something that appears to be a hole in the top with a gasket around it. I’m guessing that when the flapper door opens , there’s a hole that goes up into the cowl. My guess is that seal is working great because whatever goes on the cowl seems to come inside the car lol.
This photo labeled heater cabin on the parts list, at least shows the section in question I think. Towards the top right of the photo, it shows what appears to be a vent to the cowl. I’m not sure, but it might be that the number nine labeled in this photo are flapper doors.
This photo from the evaporators section shows gaskets that are big and square. Those look like the gaskets that seal the flapper doors that I saw in my photos above. But I don’t think the problem is that those are not sealing. Think the issue is water is getting in where it should not.
I can see item 12 listed here is a drain hose. Of course it doesn’t show where it is connected. My guess is there’s a one wave valve perhaps in the box itself? What I remember is when the car had water in it after I dried it I drove it about 50 miles. I parked it at a friend shop to ask him about doing a smog check in California. While I was there with him, he said, a lot of water drained out of the car. I told him I had the air-conditioning running and it wasn’t raining that day. It could’ve just been water that it pulled up under the floor mats or in the trunk or something, but he was right… When I pulled out of his driveway, there was a lot of water. The person I had bought it from had washed the car within the last week in her driveway. I suspect that because the car was facing nose down, the cowl area must’ve been holding a lot of water in it. But to drive 50 miles, park it on a flat surface, and then have it discharged that much water seem strange. It does not overheat. It runs very cold. It doesn’t taste like coolant. And it only leaks for me in the very specific conditions I have mentioned above. That is raining or car wash with defroster on.
This morning I removed the radiator cap. Nice green coolant. Fired up car. No issues. Looks like there was a small bit of coolant circulating.
Is it normal or a small amount circulating? I left it running for 20 minutes watching the temperature gauge went up over 1/3. Air-conditioning was off at the time. Warm after five minutes… By about eight minutes I put the cap back on the electric cooling fan never turned on. I guess these things do not run hot at idle.
then went inside the car and turned on the air conditioning. Both the fans in front of the radiator turned on. The temperature gauge within 90 seconds was back down at the bottom bar. What does testing has done as prove to me what the coolant looks like if the coolant was leaking rainwater or water from my hose. The coolant is sticky as you would expect. The water in the car has never been green.
I know the fuel capacity is 17.2. I believe that is correct because imperial gallons is only 14.3 or so, and it took more than that (14.60 exactly). The needle on my fuel gauge is down resting on the E for empty mark. The low fuel indicator should be just above it, but it did not come on yet.
anyone have any idea when they should come on? Does it have a bulb like D4 that goes out?
premium at Arco in Los Angeles is 5.299 a gallon. Paid 77 and change.
if my math is right, I had 2.9 gallons left in the tank. I’m not sure what the miles per gallon is, I will call at 20, but that would’ve given me 60 miles left to fill up
I'm a bit analytical myself, spending some 55 years as a mechanical engineer.
Anyway, the link at https://www.acurapartswarehouse.com/...7-sw5-j80.html gives some indication f the parts in that last image, the one where you speculate that item #12 is a drain hose. I am not seeing a one way valve except item #3 is termed a "valve, check" but it is in an area where I don't think it would contribute to your issue.
Now, another good link I found is at 96-01 Heater Core. Go through the photographs (20) and it will give you a visual on some of the components that you likely haven't seen. In particular images 16, 18, and 19 show that hose believed to be item #12. I have Photoshopped image 19 a bit to brighten and increase contrast. It is attached here.
I believe I found the issue! I removed the cowl cover. There was a bunch of debris under it. I have cleared it out. I can see clearly how with the debris there and enough water it has no where to go except into the heater box.
I have not tested a high volume water flow test. I only had 4 water bottles. No leaks with that test though.
Before I reassemble I have looked around for the 16 clips it takes to put it together. Found part number but on back order. See them on Amazon. Will try those.
Good to hear of the potential resolution. A few weeks back I needed similar clips. Our Honda dealer is significantly closer, and fortunately I only needed (2) which were $5 each. I later purchased off eBay, a bag of 20 for about $10. I wonder if you could get the clips at a reasonable price from a local body shop? Also check eBay, I see you can get a bag of (20) for about $15 including shipping. See Cowl clips
Good to hear of the potential resolution. A few weeks back I needed similar clips. Our Honda dealer is significantly closer, and fortunately I only needed (2) which were $5 each. I later purchased off eBay, a bag of 20 for about $10. I wonder if you could get the clips at a reasonable price from a local body shop? Also check eBay, I see you can get a bag of (20) for about $15 including shipping. See Cowl clips
Similar situation for me as well.. clips for like 2-3 EACH, i just bought an 180 pc set on Amazon for 14:
Thank you all for your replies. I drove 20 minutes to an O’Reillys distribution center where they had 18 of the 16 clips I needed. They gave me two spares for other body panels that might need them. I did order some off Amazon, but when they arrive, they were too big by probably an eighth of an inch. I was unwilling to drill out the holes in my body just to fit the cliff so it was worth the drive. I have the cowl cover reinstalled along with the hood gasket so that’s good. It looks pretty great. I am now wondering if I lost a part… I know that there were some dust covers that went on the windshield, wiper shafts, and I have both of those… But then I only have one additional bezel and I believe it came off of the middle wiper shaft and it goes on between the cowl and the wiper slides over the middle wiper shaft. But I think there was another one over on the drivers side as well, that I cannot find. I’m not 100% certain. I know if I had to choose, I would choose to protect the center shaft, so that less water has a chance of getting in in the Middle , however it may go on the driver side to protect the wiper motor. I should’ve paid closer attention when I was removing the towel, but I was in a panic to get it done between the rain storms in Los Angeles. I’m happy to report after doing a test this morning That there are no water leaks into the cabin since I made the repair. Also, I conducted that test by using a hose because there is zero rain in the forecast probably for another year lol.
You can find a breakdown in the various parts at Front Windshield Wiper fit your 1996 Acura TL. There are some dust covers (items 9 & 10) and some seals. If you think you left something out I suggest you back track and do a proper repair. Even though you don't "normally" get a lot of rain in LA, if you do you don't want water in the car or even worse, possibly have to replace the wiper motor.
Great diagram thank you.
I have part 14 (drivers side) and part 15 (middle) installed over the wiper shafts. All good there.
See how there is a part number 7? And there there appears to be only one on the diagram? And they show it being installed on the middle wiper shaft over part 15.
I do not see an equivalent for the driver side that goes on over 14. Do you see anything like that anywhere? Otherwise, I think I am right...there is only 1 and it covers the middle shaft.
Can anyone confirm my findings, which are based on this photo?
Furthermore, I did walk around the area where I worked on the car, and tore apart the car looking for it inside the trunk and passenger cabin.
As regards to protecting the wiper motor, open the hood on your car, and look… There are probably 50 holes in the cowl cover above the wiper motor alone. If the priority is to protect the wiper motor from the elements, Honda/Acura did a very poor job of it.
There is only one #7 on the parts diagram and it is for the passenger side. On the driver side, #14 is the equivalent "Cap, PIvot" but is discontinued. I believe the replacement is item #15, Cap, Pivot. (Acura 76558-SS0-003 Pivot Cap).
I do have 15 installed on passenger side. It is on the shaft. I also have 7 installed on passenger side on top of 15 before the arm. Then I have the arm and then a nut.
On the drivers side I have only 14. I thought a similar 7 went on top of 14 but I don’t have. The photo also doesn’t show anything on top of 14 other than a wiper arm and then a nut.
I think I’m good.
as for wiper motor I have it covered with cowl cover, and it is covered with 14, then wiper arm, then nut. I think I’ve got it exactly how diagram shows.
02-08-2024, 06:23 PM
