JCRDX11

Great pictures - can't waiting for the dyno numbers!
How much bigger is the new TMIC? Is it the same like the MS3?



Plus 1.

BigHatch

...joy

mucter

That looks fabulous. If it has gains like the MS3 version and is priced about the same, I'm definitely getting in on this.

BU

Can't wait for it release

Mr Marco

ETS is currently testing the volume & temp parameters on the TMIC. I’m sure Michael will post numbers and a price. The unit is physically smaller than the Speed3 TMIC from ETS.

InfamousJamous

This is great progress. Now all we need is a turbo upgrade kit.

mucter

...........and something to tune it.

BigHatch

End tanks seem opened up too. I imagine the rest may be fairly constrained to fit right, but with a better core I'm sure this will flow way better than stock.

This is nice. Now I wish I'd a jumped on the DDP too.

"...it's all a part of my master plan...Muhuhahahahahahaha!!!"

Mr Marco

The more I think about it, the more I realize that getting a real hp/tq reading with the SH-AWD will be difficult. The numbers will not reflect the way the car drives on the street. Which also explains some of those really low numbers that were previously graphed. The overall rotation rate will be lower than the street because the rear wheels are trying to catch up.

JCRDX11

Do you know how much bigger is the new TMIC vs the stock one?
Pictures - it looks almost the same size. (Course the core and flow rate is much better)

Michael Roark

Hey Guys,

I'm still working on the data, but I posted some information up on the site and some dyno figures as well.

http://www.extremeturbosystems.com/R...Top-Mount.html




I believe with an intake we can get this thing over 200 pretty easily. The car is bone stock besides our top mount intercooler.

Thanks,

Michael

BU

Hello, Michael

Quality work on RDX ETS TMIC.

I guess everyone want to know.

Is ETS TMIC bigger than Acura RDX OEM IC ?

pictures showed above seem like they are in same dimension.
since it fit all OEM mounts & even the IC cover.

Thanks

mucter

That is a tiny intercooler for a big price.

JCRDX11

Plus 1!

I am wondering why the RDX is making such low numbers and the CX-7 is 20/20.

I know the CX-7 TMIC is 25lbs and RDX is 16lbs.

I also notice it says - (Retains Factory Shroud/Cover)
Would you be able to make a bigger core to merry up at least the same numbers as the CX7?

I could care less if it retains the factory cover as I took that off at a month of purchasing the RDX.

Michael Roark

The temps coming out of the top mount are COLD. I have more logs i will compile, the problem that you have with the factory intercooler is heat soak. Once the intercooler heat soaks the car pulls a ton of timing and drop downs to under 150hp. That's why the car feels like a turd when it heats up or after you have driven it hard for a few pulls.

Tomorrow I should hopefully have RPM/Speed/Temp/Boost plots for the stock intercooler and the aftermarket intercooler.

The difference isn't all in the core size. It's the type of core used. The tube and fin OEM core is old technology. The Bar and Plate is new technology and we do something a little different then most intercooler manufacturers.

We use an offset and staggered fin pack so the air is forced to split and contact multiple fins before leaving the intercooler. Most intercoolers you see on ebay or by cheaper manufacturers use a straight through intercooler pack and the air passes right through without dissipating much heat.

We also use a smaller fin pack which allows for more charge rows. Charge rows are where the internal air flows. By having more charge rows we have more heat transfer plates. This is the plate that is on the top and bottom of the charge row. By having more charge rows and heat transfer plates we create a much more efficient core.

This intercooler is going to be capable of handing 400whp. The larger intercooler won't benefit much. An intake would net another 10-15whp.

When logging the car the problem I see is the boost falls a ton towards the end of the pull. A larger turbo or upgraded stock frame turbo would be great on these vehicles. They have a great power plant and with a good intercooler the next step would be some kind of turbo setup to get these things moving.

This intercooler is much harder to build then our standard CX7 intercooler. This intercooler requires a blow off valve flange, Temp sensor bung, 4 mounting tabs and some crazy tapered tanks and oval tubes.

Thanks!

Michael

mucter

^this - performance > oem nonsense in the bay. If you're paying that much for an intercooler, it'd better be THE BEST it could possibly be. I appreciate the complexities of developing an intercooler for this application, but if there was the possibility of making it better while sacrificing something non-functional on the car... it should be done.

Michael Roark

I also forgot to mention that a tube an fin intercooler looks to be the same thickness, but it has a header on both sides and the internal flow area is actually a bit smaller. I'm at home now, so I can't take exact measurements.

I will check the data again, but the dyno pulls were 10.8 WOT.

Michael

Michael Roark

The larger intercooler will not be beneficial on this unit. This intercooler will support over 400hp. If someone needs a unit for over 400hp, they can contact us and we can build a custom thicker unit. But for anything under 400hp this will handle the power all day long.

mucter

Michael,

You mentioned the BOV being compatible with the GTR and there was mention of the MS3 one fitting as well. Can/will you guys test this before sending the car off? The stock turbo is already well known for being able to make more power up top, the issue lies in holding boost / re-tuning. I am very curious to see if replacing the bov results in more boost in the high RPM range. Hondata already retuned the car to make more boost up top and the car responds well to it. There is also a custom reflash for owners of a catless downpipe that nets almost 40hp... so the turbo is good for more.

mucter

Yeah its all good. Please don't take my post as disrespectful. It's awesome that you guys stepped up to do this and the unit looks phenomenal.

Michael Roark

Also you can't compare boost vs boost from one model of car to another. The turbochargers are different.

Stock CX7 Turbo at 15psi is not the same as a RDX Turbo at 15psi due to the difference in efficiency and flow of the turbocharger. If we were to put a 5.0" thick tmic on the car the power gain would be the same.

Michael

Michael Roark

I won't I just want others who read this thread to have a little heads up in case they don't know

Michael Roark

I measured the flange and they are the same. You can run the mazda blow off valve for sure. I also found a thread where someone put a turbosmart 50/50 valve on an RDX already. So it will work. We don't have enough time to test it, but this car falls down on the top end for sure. You will see from the boost plots tomorrow.

mucter

Of course, the efficiency of flow on the engine and the manifold and the turbo, etc. It's all different.

mucter

Yeah I've been harassing the owner of Hondata trying to get him to fix the Flashpro so it can at the very least datalog this car. I want to do some testing and see how each mod I make effects AFR, boost, IAT, Knock ignition limit, AFM flow, etc. I'm big into tuning my own cars, and even though I know getting a fully tunable solution from Hondata is unlikely, it shouldn't be much work for them to get the FP to read the ECU info and allow it to datalog. The flashpro can datalog almost every other 4 cylinder Honda made after 2006.

Michael Roark

Yeah, we ordered a few PLX pieces and put together our own logger.

We can monitor all the OBD2 Data, Boost Pressure (Own Module), Wideband (Own Module), 2x AIT (Own Module) and daisy chained them all together so we can see the full pictures. This allows us to monitor the inlet and outlet temps, exact boost pressure from intake manifold, OBD2 RPM and Vehicle Speed as well as anything else we need.

A cheap mod for this vehicle should be a factory 1G (90-94) Eclipse blow off valve.



We run 28-30 psi on these once we do the crush mod no problem. They hold 20 psi all day without any modification to the valve. They should be an exact replacement. Just metal instead of plastic. These cars are fun.

Michael

mucter

Yup that PLX system is nice. I looked into those on my last boosted vehicle.

Those 1G BPVs are very popular, I know a lot people use those on various platforms. Good to know they'll work for us as well. Again though, unless I can get a way to datalog and see that a BPV upgrade actually increases boost effectively, it's a shot in the dark. I'll keep harassing Doug, hopefully he'll come through for me.

wspy

Just so its clear; The boost drop off in the higher rpm range is not due to the factory BOV, its in the factory ECM tune. This is where the Hondata tune rectifies a bit by holding the boost higher and longer to red line. Also, there is no 'custom reflash' available for the catless downpipe! There is only one reflash available for the RDX and its by Hondata.

Michael Roark

Has anyone tried a manual boost controller on the vehicle?

mucter

Has there been empirical data proving that upgrading the bov results in no change in boost pressure? If so, please point me to it. Boost control is relative.

In an open loop system, if you have a component that is leaking off boost, you can tune the boost control against that to compensate to a point. If you look at the boost curve achieved by the reflash, it still tapers off up top. I vaguely remember Doug saying that the car wouldn't hold more boost up there well. I'm guessing Honda's system is open loop, I could be wrong though. This may be a question I need to pose to Doug to find out for sure. On my last car I had an internal wastegate which is inherently inefficient and would taper the boost off up top, but I could compensate for it by increasing the duty cycle on my boost solenoid.

As for the downpipe. Yes actually there was, but only if you had Church Automotive make you their DP and buy the reflash through them. I'm not sure if they still offer it, but the fact remains that the DP was made and the reflash was too and they were both available and showed great gains.

You can read about it here: http://www.vtec.net/articles/view-ar...icle_id=687615
Dyno plot here: http://www.vtec.net/articles/article...chrdx_dyno.gif

mucter

I have one laying here, been pondering trying to find a way to play with it. Just need to study up more on the RDX's vacuum connections. It's anything but standard with the way they control boost via the exhaust flow to the turbo. I'd hate to hook it up wrong and cause it to boost to infinity...lol.

Michael Roark

The manual boost controller is really straight forward. You just need a vac source (intake manifold) and then hook directly to the wastegate. Some cars act funny with boost controllers like my 335i because the DME controls the boost and they have electronic wastegates, but if I recall correctly these are mechanical.

Just a thought. Because if it's the solenoid doing the taper the manual boost controller make fix the boost curve up top if the ecu can compensate for it.

mucter

Yeah I thought there was something funny to do with the variable flow gate to the turbo being a part of the boost control... but I haven't tried it. Its obvious where the wastegate cannister is in this diagram: http://www.acuraautomotiveparts.org/...k701_e0410.png

So yeah should be straightforward to try it, but someone has to have already tried by now and we'd know about it if it worked. Again without datalogging though it makes me go eeeek. Don't want to run out of fuel...lol

mucter

Yup just found this post from way back:

Michael Roark

Does anyone use the AEM FIC on the RDX?

Michael Roark

Looks like you could get the FIC and use this patch harness to wire it in.

http://www.aemonly.com/harness-exten...2985-2019.html

Mr Marco

Wow, I missed out on the chat.

I plan on running the cp-e intake (next week) and, as I understand, the Hondata reflash doesn't like a big intake:

Q: How will the reflash work with modifications?
"At the time of writing there were no intakes available for the RDX. Air fuel ratio is largely determined by the mass air flow sensor located in the intake. Any intake which does not alter the pipe diameter surrounding the mass air flow sensor (and thus the air fuel ratio) should work fine.
The reflash will work safely with an exhaust system."

http://www.hondata.com/reflash_rdx.html

So aside from my dislike of the Hondata CS, I'm not going to run this ride rich. I want it to run perfect, not lean, not rich.
Running either will cause some performance loss, and running rich can cause pre-ingition problems as well as really shitty gas milage. Id rather run lean then rich, because I don't want to buy a new DP/cat and 02 sensors.

mucter

Actually, an intake working well or not has little to nothing to do with the reflash. It has everything to do with the quality of the manufacturing process on the aftermarket intake in question.

On cars with an Air Flow Meter (or a Mass Airflow Sensor), the diameter of the pipe and the smoothness of the air flow surrounding the sensor are all that matters. The ECU has a table that tells it how many grams per second of air flow is coming into the engine when the sensor returns a particular voltage. If the diameter of the pipe is off from stock, even by a fraction of an inch, it'll affect the flow dynamics enough to skew the voltage that gets returned to the ECU. In turn this will cause the ECU to inject either too much or too little fuel into the engine.

Generally, when changing the AFM housing from stock, you need to re-calibrate the ECU's AFM/voltage table for the change in flow so the ECU can properly fuel the motor. Almost none of the aftermarket intake manufacturers for Honda vehicles build their intakes properly to deal with this... Mainly because they were always spoiled since Honda's engines ran off MAP based logic alone until 2006.

cp-e says on their site that they are using an expensive process for creating the AFM housing and it is within extremely tight tolerances (thousandths of an inch). I'm hoping this means that it is good to go and won't cause any fueling issues. Since feedback on it has been positive so far, I'm guessing so. I too will be getting a cp-e intake soon.

All of this to say that if the cp-e intake works well with the stock logic, it'll work fine with the Hondata logic as well since it keeps the stock calibration for the AFM/voltage table. Changing the intake on a car generally makes little to no difference in the acceptable ignition values so that's nothing to be concerned about. It can however change the optimal cam angles (VTC) just slightly....

mucter

So the FIC would allow larger injectors and recalibration of the AFM flow. That could be useful. I'm not sure that the stock ECU wouldn't still get pissed when it detects the higher boost level and start throwing codes. Can you say battle royale?...lol

The long term fuel trim is really invasive on Honda's AFM logic, I can see it wigging out after a while with a piggyback. I guess the danger in tampering with the ECU logic is losing the smoothness of this car. It's so damned nice.

wspy

Again, Just to be clear, Sean Church did not make a Down Pipe for the RDX, he made a cat back sys for which the tune you refer to was toyed with!
The confusion here is how the term Down Pipe is used. When refering to said item we mean a deletion of the primary cat that which was not done at Church! Link to Actual thread https://acurazine.com/forums/1g-rdx-performance-parts-modifications-162/history-rdx-hondata-reflash-802555/

Few have made a primary cat delete (downpipe) for the RDX, the first being Pang Cheung @ PFabrications in Denver (who only made one for himself)https://acurazine.com/forums/1g-rdx-performance-parts-modifications-162/built-3-downpipe-cat-deletes-682724/ and the another person Donald Godfrey who is the only one to have had produced a downpipe for sale https://acurazine.com/forums/1g-rdx-performance-parts-modifications-162/rdx-down-pipe-cat-delete-818921/

The AEM FIC and patch cord have been concidered in the past but not tested. The 'Battle Royale' aspect of fuel trims was a/the deterrant.

BOV leaking off boost up top?.....not sure about that but think its more the wastegate/tune......more testing need here I guess

Cp-e intake sys.....lots of research/testing went into this and results in the most HP increase of them available. I believe they tuned the intake to lean the AFR a bit for increased power.


Great stuff guys keep up the good work and research