AtlCl

One thing I realized about our first gear is that it SUCKS. It is so damn short, at first I tried to downshift a lot in turns, but 1st is so short that it was a waste of time. I just kept it in second a lot. Anyone else think that our 1st gear sucks? 2nd and 3rd I like, but all 1st does is rev up quickly.

1StGenCL

I never downshift to first because the car doenst like it. It is hard to get it there to start with and it seems no matter how slow you are going it almost always redlines

AtlCl

That is exactly what I am saying. What sucks though is that we have a dead spot at like 2000-3500 rpm where second doesn't do that much, but shifting to 1st will just redline automatically. My car really didn't like what I did to it this weekend. No more 1st for me.

99CL2.3

I always take corners in second. I've done that for pretty much every stick I've driven. Think of it this way - If first gear wasn't at redline at turning speed, then it would crawl trying to accelerate from a stop.

AtlCl

Yea, but other cars I've driven have had a much better 1st gear. I guess it's due to the low torque and hp in our cars. A 328i can have a longer first cause it's got much more power to move it.

limequat

Took the words outta my mouth, Atlcl. I think redline in 1st is somewhere around 30 mph - which is right in line with other cars. CLs just weren't build for rally

I've found that heel toe-ing really helps to get that downshift going. My problem is getting a quick 1-2 upshift at redline. It'll grind unless I do a normal everyday type of shift. Trying to brake, clutch, and match trans speeds is difficult when those stupid orange cones keep jumping in front of you!

I also find myself flooring it immediately after starting from a dead stop, then backing out at 2500-3000 rpm. I hate to say it, and you'll all probably hate me for it, but...I miss torque.

Limequat

AtlCl

I don't even know about 30 being the redline, it's more like 20 or 15. I agree with you that it is a bitch to actually shift it quickly, it's real hard to get the gear into first. But keeping it in 2nd, you don't get a nice jump out of the turn cause you're waiting for it to rev up. Torque would be nice, that would give our first gear some more meaning than just to move the car from stop to 10mph.

No, it's not a rally car, neither is it a drag car, but one can sure have fun pretending. I'm thinking some sway bars and some pullies and a the short shift adaptor would help me for the next one. Maybe, take out my spare tire also?

How exactly would you do the heel toe shifting and when would you downshift, right before the turn? I don't like cause the engine braking is just too much in first.

limequat

I don't know. I just took the CL out during lunch. 35 MPH at 7200 RPM is where the rev limiter kicked in. Maybe the 2.3 is geared differently?

I here ya about having fun with your car even though it's slow. My Acura gets a 60 mile workout every day

As for heel toe-ing... I haven't quite mastered it yet (or even close) but here's what I aim for:

* Head towards turn going way to fast
* Mash brake just in time so I don't loose control
* Trail brake mid way through turn
* Push in clutch
* Turn my foot so I can still brake and catch the gas with my toes
* Match speeds
* Shift
* Do it again

I my old car I could do it without the clutch...but I don't want to abuse the CL _that_ much

AtlCl

7200 RPM ??????? My redline starts at 6250. How is that possible??

clac225

Just because your tach is redline at 6200 doesnt mean that is your true redline. The TRUE redline Is at or above fuel cut off which is 7100-7200 not to sure. The reason they have a cut off is so you dont blow you motor. But on a reasonally stock motor you wont hurt your self.

All hondas are like this, my friend's SI B16 (redline) is at 7900-8000rpm but VTEC is still screaming at 8400 rpm which is around fuel cut off

Actually a B16 motor can go up 9000 but that is a whole nother topic

AtlCl

Thanks for clearing that up. I would think that it would be pretty pointless to rev it that high cause our peak power is at a lower rpm anyway.

limequat

Oh, I guess it's not possible. My tach must be a lying SOB. Point is, I hit 35 MPH in 1st gear...unless the speedo is lying too.

On a side note, it turns out that our 5 spds have slightly different ratio. I don't think it'd be enough to be noticable. According to my sources:

2.2 2.3
==== ====
3.307 3.285
1.609 1.807
1.185 1.193
.903 .903
.685 .685


Limequat

AtlCl

So, the 2.3 actually has a shorter 1st? I guess I never got it past 6300rpms cause I figured it would shut down. I've abused it enough this weekend, so I think I'll take it easy (till I install my b&m adaptor ) Do u know at what rpm our hp peaks it cause I don't think it pulls that hard after around 5500rpm, just makes a lot of noise?

clac225

what are you talking about???? peak power is in VTEC between 5000 and 7000 rpms

limequat

Yeah, go figure on that gearing.
Peak power for the 2.3 is @ 5700 RPM, 5500 RPM for the 2.2.
And Clac225, I *would* consider that a low power peak. Especially for a Honda.

Limequat

AtlCl

So I was pretty close on my estimate there. Yea you could rev it up to 7200, but how much power are you really getting there? 5700 is pretty weak for a peak but makes sense if the redline starts at 6250. Acura could have done so much better with the power of this car and it would have sold better and the CL would have been a more popular car now.

MaCe

to clear things up for all of you the HP curve max's at 5.5k then dips drastically and the tourque max is at an even lower RPM ( positive on the HP think im right on tourqe ) so reving it much past 5.5-6 isnt doing much just making the enige work harder...

and why would u ever have to downshift to 1st in a turn ??? the gearing is not made for that ... no need to drop below second unless ur at a dead stop .... its not a race car

MaCe

AtlCl

Mace, I think I found that out this weekend and that his been my point all along.

MaCe

just tryin to clear up some of the HP numbers that lime was throwin at u .. theres no need to rev that high the red line is there for a reason and if he'd check out some HP charts for our car he would see that

MaCe

niedejb

Having a VAFC, I know you cant go by the stock tach.

Mine reads well into the 7K range with the VAFC only showing 6100 or so. You'll get fuel cut out before you do any damage to the motor. I dont try to hit that every shift but when your auto crossing you probably have another 1000 rpm than what your tach is actually telling you.

The tach is also off at idle. When my tachs around 500 the VAFC reads 750 or so.

The VAFC uses the same wire that the ECU uses to determine fuel delivery and cut out so get an aftermarket tach or VAFC and rev away.

AtlCl

The problem is that 1st actually hurts you most of the time in autocross, cause you slow down too much on the downshift and have to switch right back to second anyway, cause you are downshifting in high rpms anyway, so you will probably get more power in 2nd at 3500 rpm than 1st at 6200rpm. Plus, it's probably better for your clutch

Blacura

I just saw this thread. I don't know anything about gearing ratios or any of that shit, all i know is I agree with you guys that 1st sucks. It sounds like it's workin real hard WOT in 1st but you are barely movin. 2nd is great and 3rd pulls pretty hard too but we gotta do somethin bout 1st!

ATLcl98

I have pic's of AtlCl's AutoCross Adventures...once I get them up (probably in a couple days), I'll post links to them...until we can get some bandwidth back up in this biatch. All in all, it was fun though...Damn if that Daewoo hadn't taken out its backseat you would have beaten it Eugene!

SAY22CL

I'm swapping my tranny but keeping the f22a engine. I can either get a f22 or a h23 tranny. Which one would be better for speed? They are both out of 96s. They will both be the same price. Which tranny is faster the h23 or the f22 when put with the f22a engine? Thanks

clac225

the H22/23 is a cable clutch, while F22/23 is hydro, which means if you go with a cable its manually adjusted, and it wont adapt to your driving habits like a hydro clutch will

If its possible to do a H22 engine with a F22 tranny, I would do that

SAY22CL

So which tranny the f22 or the h23 five speed tranny would have faster gearing with the f22a engine?

clac225

I dont know, but are you sure you hook up an F series to a H series???

SAY22CL

Yes, it'll work...