DarkWraith33

And their "proper surface prep" states to use Dawn...

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

You just don't know when to quit. A one-time use Dawn application will do absolutely nothing to the paint. It will however removes any grease, wax, oil, etc which do not help the bonding of a polymer. But you knew that right.

The water at the DIY car washes is more harmful to your paint.

Sal has been in the automotive paint business longer than you've been alive. He works with chemists to develop his products and procedures. I think he might now a little bit more than you.

So tell me, what do you recommend as proper surface cleaning?

CLpower

Clay or a Proper Polish or Alcohol/Water mixture, or a dedicated paint cleaner

DarkWraith33

Well, we also know that Dawn is not the only thing on Earth that removes grease, wax and oil, right? We also all know that it is not only bad for your car finish, but also the seals. And perhaps if good ol' Sal said to use sandpaper to remove bug and tar residue, that wouldn't make it right, now would it (no matter what grit he recomended)?

What would I say to do?

Well, as opposed to half assing it and thinking that the Dawn in one miraculous fail swoop will completely and totally rid your car of all old wax, surface grease and oil (which is completely laughable... if it is THAT good at removing EVERYTHING with just one wash, I truly hate to think what it it seriously doing to your car, your fine china and your wifes wedding band!)

I would say to wash the car normally... Personally, I use the NXT soap. I would then say you should clay the car. I use Mothers, but would like to try the BlackFire PolyClay but haven't needed to order it as of yet. Next, as I am a BF guy, I would use the BF Gloss Enhancing Polish to not only polish but remove any old wax that would be on there. (I'm kinda picky so I tend to be very tedious in my cleaning... I think that's why it takes me so long to do all this shit. Get out that real soft little brush to remove anything from any little gaps or cracks here and there.) I would also think that Klasse All-in-One would be a great selection for prepping post clay, pre sealant... Liquid glass also makes a pre-cleaner. (Did I mention I also wash again AFTER clay? I know most folks say you don't need to, but since I don't use Dawn, one more wash to make sure everything is squeaky clean isn't going to hurt now is it?) Now that being said, I like to stay within a family. If I used the AIO, I would use Klasse SG (likewise with the LG.)

From there, your surface is all prepped what I would think would be the proper way. My worth, for sure, but it should work for most. I trust this answers your question.

DarkWraith33

I guess... I coulda saved some time and....

Shit... WHAT HE SAID...

Winterwaves

You'd be surprised. Maybe not WalMart, but there are PLENTY -- repeat, PLENTY of people that go into Kragen and Pep Boys that do exactly that. Sometimes skipping the second layer, but there are plenty of them that are no strangers to the rest of the process.

It's Marketing 101 again: Make it clear and easy enough to understand, and don't make it too complicated, and make the benefits clear (the wow factor), and people will come. Yes, even the so-called "casual" ones. You can expand your market base in this manner.

Again, we're not talking about Walmart shoppers, we're talking about competing with other similar products like Meguirs and so on which are readily available on the shelves of auto parts stores and which DO have multi-step products.

Properly detailing a car isn't any big rocket science, and shouldn't continue to be thought of as some sort of big dark complicated secret thing that only the elite "enthusiasts" can hope to comprehend. Sal isn't helping the situation any by selling his products the way he does, with confusing numbers and poorly written instructions that miss certain steps and are ambiguously written on other steps. Marketing 101 again: Don't make your product more complicated to use than it has to be.

Winterwaves

Forgot to mention: Just for the heck of it, I walked into a Pep Boys the other day and played dumb, asking if they had Zaino. No one that worked there knew what I was talking about. Then I tried it at the Kragen down the street (This wasn't my main purpose for going to these places; I needed to go to Kragen because Pep Boys didn't have something else I wanted. But I figured that while I was there, I'd find out what they know about Zaino.) Well, the Kragen folks knew nothing either, although they were really keen on pointing me over to Meguire's Gold Class.

joerockt

Ok, thanks for proving my point. You went into both a Kragen and a Pep Boys and one of them points you to the wax! You would get the same dumb answer in Walmart. People dont give a shit. And the people that do already know how to get Zaino.

So if the guys that actually work at these stores know nothing about Zaino, what makes you think they know anything about properly detailing a car?

You keep bringing up Marketing 101, why not look up "Target Market".

NSXNEXT

iTrader: (2)

You make too many assumptions. In ADDITION to claying I use Dawn to strip the car.

And one wash every year with Dawn will do absolutely nothing to the seals. My 6 year old TL looks the same it did (actually better) than the day I picked it up at the dealer.


Oh and news flash, alcohol will dry up the seals way quicker than any household dish detergent.

Winterwaves

Look, I don't want to start a big fight about something so trivial, but as a marketing major, I think I can say unequivocally that you don't what the fuck you're talking about. Sorry, but you don't.

What I said did not serve to prove your point. Nothing of the sort. It only proves that the product does not have the kind of exposure it deserves, because as I said, there are PLENTY of people that I see all the time in Pep Boys and Kragen stores that ARE into detailing their cars, and they buy these multi-step products that are on these stores' shelves. If Zaino products were also on the shelves -- and were easily labeled, clearer on the instructions, and aggressively promoted -- I'd be willing to bet the farm that you'd see an increase in sales. I really don't think you want to further challenge me on that, because I will just continue to tell you the same thing: It's simple Marketing 101.

joerockt

So then you know what it takes for distribution of a product then? Aggressively promoted? Do you even know what these things cost?? Guess who makes Turtle Wax, marketing genus, SC Johnson. Do you really think Zaino wants to or even NEEDS to compete with that large of a company?

Zaino isnt selling fucking laundry detergent or motor oil, nor are all the other great wax and polish companies out there. If its soooo easy, then why dont we see Klasse, Poorboys, Wolfgang, etc on the store shelves as well? All of those products are just as good, if not better then what Zaino makes. You make it sound like these companies have money to burn

Bottom line, again, most people could give a shit less about these products. If there were so many people intrested in spending 2,3 or 4+ hours detailing their car like you think there are, then car washes and turtle wax would be out of business.

Anthony Orosco

OK..DAWN may not have any ill effect on your cars paint for one use BUT what impact does it have on the enviroment with just one wash?

The fact is that I remove wax, oil and grease from cars every day without the use of DAWN. So it is not needed to properly prep a cars finish, one can use clay, a paint cleanser, alcohol mixture, etc.

Bottom line is that Zaino is not the best nor is Meguiars, Mothers, Zymol or any other product line. It boils down to what one personally likes. It is ridiculous to get into a rant over car care products. Now if one company makes claims that are untrue and goes against science then I could see where attacking that would be justified. The most of what you people are bickering about though is subjective.

Anthony

Winterwaves

Sorry, wrong again, bud. Sigh...I tried to warn you about continuing to challenge me on this, but here we go again.

First off, I am not saying that Sal has not been successful in his way of marketing the product already. He has. But he certainly, without a doubt in my mind, could expand his range. You speak of the target market. OK...I see the demographic for many of the Zaino products as the same demographic as for many of, say, Meguire's products, EagleOne, or even Turtle Wax. Zaino's Z-8, for instance, could sit very comfortably on a Pep Boys shelf next to similar spray gloss products. Zaino's Z-7 could sit very comfortably on its own next to similar high-end car wash products on the shelves. Similar demographics means an untapped marketing opportunity. And not only that -- you keep referring to the demographic as being only hardcore enthusiasts. This is a narrow view, in my estimation. Sal could actually expand his target market by breaking out some of the products as stated above.

It is not a matter of "the little guy going up against a mega-corporation, so the little guy has no chance of penetrating." Of course he has a chance of penetrating. Look at Krispy Kreme, for example. Little guy going up against the big established brands. That may not be the ideal analogy to car detailing products, but it makes the point. You don't look at it as "I could never compete with or make the sales volume of these big companies, so what's the use?" Of course you're not going to make the sales volume of those big companies. But you can still make more profit for your company. You gain a foothold through aggressive marketing (read: that doesn't necessarily mean expensive marketing) and yes, the word of mouth that has been so successful will also continue and take hold. It really does not take a lot of financial resources to put yourselves on a store shelf. Just a lot of drive.

But in order to make that happen, I suggested some simple changes. Let's back up a bit. I, and others here, simply posted that Sal would do better by labeling his products more simply and logically, and by providing clearer-written instructions for them, and by distinguishing some of the products from others in the line. You responded to that by basically stating that anyone that doesn't understand the products is a "dumbfuck", while indirectly acknowledging the fact that Zaino products are a bit complicated to understand and that the instructions aren't written as clearly as they could be. So then, what you're basically saying is that you don't like things to be less complicated than they need to be! If that's your message -- and by reading your statements logically, it sure seems to be -- then I would think that you are in a rather exclusive minority, even among the "enthusiasts" to which you refer. I would think that even enthusiasts would appreciate simple labeling, clearer instructions, and easily knowing what one product does or does not do in comparison to another. Or are you really that elitist that you think that this would not be beneficial to both users and to Zaino?

I'm really not following the point of your vitriole. It strikes me as snobbish, condescending and very misinformed.

Now, I'd like to drop this, please.

WW

Shawn S

You two fight nice please.

I’m tempted to close this, but then DarkWraith33 would just call me and NSXNEXT overbearing moderators again.

joerockt

If I can't get you to admit to the fact that the vast majority of car owners do NOT spend 4+ hours on a scheduled basis detailing their cars, then we will continue to spin our wheels here...So, consider it dropped. You don't seem to understand any of the points I've made, and I can't make it any simplier for you (ironic huh?)

joerockt

By the way, here is what Walmart shoppers do

From Epinions:

" It also works great for washing your car. My husband enjoys washing his truck in the summer. He puts warm water in a bucket along with some Dawn detergent. It gets his truck shining."
http://www.epinions.com/content_131212152452

"It also helps the car to shine better. Of course Dawn™ and Joy™ are the only two dish soaps that I use when washing the car."
http://www.epinions.com/content_98337984132

But hey! Have you heard about the benifits of using Zaino products?

Winterwaves

Well sir, you don't seem to understand any of the points I've made:

1. I wasn't even arguing your point that the majority of car owners don't spend 4+ hours detailing their cars. Of course they don't. We both agreed on that from the start, and I never argued that point. You seemed to think I was, and equate my statements with that, but that was never a point of contention at all.

2. My original point was simply that it would benefit Zaino and the users to make things simpler and more understandable. Label the products differently and make the instructions bulletproof. That would benefit everyone including the main target market that you speak of -- the people that ARE willing to spend 4+ hours on their cars. Wouldn't you agree that it would be of benefit to the product and to its users? It certainly wouldn't hurt anything. Back to my original point, which was simple, and was this: There is no need to make things more complicated than they need to be. This is a simple rule of marketing. You poo-pooed it by saying that "the product is not for fucking dumb people" or something to that effect, thereby condescending to anyone who finds that the instructions are NOT exactly crystal clear and that the product labels like Z-2, Z-5, etc. are NOT descriptive at all and are not numbered logically and sequentially as most people -- yes, even the ones that spend 4+ hours on their cars -- would naturally expect them to be.

3. My statement about going into Pep Boys and Kragen was simply to illustrate the relative obscurity of the product, even among fellow car enthusiast customers (a couple of the guys had beautiful, obviously detailed cars parked outside -- yet were unaware of Zaino). You were the one that misinterpreted that as saying that I thought the product should be marketed to casual car owners at Wal-Mart! That's not what I was saying at all, of course.

4. But since you brought it up, there IS a way that Zaino could market its products on Pep Boys and Kragen shelves (albeit probably not WalMart -- that's in quite a different categoy altogether, as you obviously well knew when you posted that). The way, in my opinion, would be that in addition to simplifying the product as stated in item #2 above, Zaino could also break out the products as separate entities rather than as necessarily being "steps in a total process," as they mostly are now. Z-8, for example, could conceivably sit on a shelf next to any other similar fine finishing spray, as there are plenty of those on store shelves. Z-7 could sit right next to any fine car wash solution. But they can't be called Z-8 and Z-7 (especially since Z-7 is not even the seventh step in the process -- it's pretty much the first). They'd need to be called something different, something separate and unassociated with an obscure numbering system.

5. This could very plausibly expand Zaino's target market. Its core demographic would probably continue to be the serious enthusiasts, sure. But what I was trying to impress upon you was that that target market could expand. All that is necessary is to look beyond the narrow view that all of its products are only for hardcore enthusiasts that spend 4+ hours doing full-blown detailing of their cars using all or most of the Zaino products in the entire line. This does not have to be the case at all. Same thing with a lot of the other high-end brands that you DO see on the shelves. Sure, you can get every one of their products and do a full step-by-step detailing job in sequence -- but you don't have to, and I've seen plenty of people in auto stores walk out with just a car wash, or just a wax, or just a polish, or just a quick gloss spray, or just a leather cleaner, or just a leather softener....beginning to see the picture?

6. You challenged me on the costs involved in competing with major corporations on advertising and such. Of course you're not going to have the resources to match their level of advertising and marketing. But you could at least get your foot in the door (or, the product on the shelves). Yes, it will take extra resources to do this, but it doesn't have to be a huge investment in order to get on some store shelves, and whatever investment you make, if you play it smart, may very well reap the above-mentioned benefits in the long run. Is it a sure thing? Of course not, everything in marketing is a gamble. But it could pay off big.

7. But let's forget about the store-shelf promotion thing and the resources involved in accomplishing that, which as I mentioned, wasn't my original point anyway. As I said in item #2, there would be nothing but benefit in labeling the products more descriptively and logically, and refining the instructions to be bulletproof for all including first-time users and experts alike. Nothing but benefit from that, as far as I'm concerned. And it wouldn't take any sort of large number of resources or revenue to do any of that. This is a marketing slam-dunk. I really can't fathom why you or anyone would disagree with that.

So you see, this is not ironic at all. Actually the definition of "ironic" is not what you mentioned. Your comment about "not making any simpler for me" was sardonic and condescdending, but not ironic. It would have been ironic if Zaino also could not make the products any simpler for anyone. That would have made what you said ironic. But since this is not the case and Zaino actually could do much to make the products more easily understandable and marketable, the claim of "irony" doesn't really hold up.

I guess if I still can't get these simple points through to you, then there really is no point in going on with this discussion. Actually I think it was played out already, as a couple of your rolling-eyes smileys ago I realized that it was appearing to be a futile effort trying to get what I thought were fairly innocuous and uncontroversial points across to you. Little did I realize how apparently incendiary my comments would be....?

Anyway, I think this thread has had it, and probably should be closed. I've made all the points I can make, nothing more to say, and if you still don't see what I'm trying to say and don't agree, then so be it. End of discussion, I'd say.

joerockt

Yea, ok...I think it's about time for this:

Winterwaves

I like a guy that can end an argument with a self-deprecating joke. You're OK after all.

joerockt

Well, you were the winner...so...go figure...

Fabvsix

Zaino is easy once you get it handled. May be a bit overwhelming at first, but easy once the layers are applied.

Zaino is not for the every day Joe ! It CLEARLY SAYS : CLASSIC CAR WAX !

Sal has no interest in MARKETING his products to Walmart etc.....Last time I walked in Walmart, I quickly got out of there......too ghetto for me ! That smell of pop corn....yuck.......

ZAINO is not for everyone ! So far it meets my expectations for the past 4 years and people always ask what I use to keep my car so FLAWLESS !

Winterwaves

Figured you'd come back with that. Absolutely predictable comeback. Totally unoriginal. So, congrats...you are teh winnah!

Geeze, Lord Almighty, how pathetic.

Winterwaves

Joe was the one that brought up Wal-Mart...not me. In fact I didn't even suggest marketing the products to Pep Boys and Kragen -- Joe simply misinterpreted my comment about walking into those stores and getting blank stares from "Joe Schmoe" customers and employees, as somehow meaning that I was advocating putting Zaino on store shelves. That wasn't my point at all, although since Joe brought it up, I went with it and explored that possibility, which could be plausible -- for THOSE stores. Not for Wal-Mart.

Wal-Mart has a decidedly different demographic than the likes of Pep Boys, Chief, and Kragen. I think Joe knew that but wanted to exaggerate and take it to extremes. Yeah, let's market this in Big Lots! or the local 99 cent store. Not.

Trivial topic anyway. Bottom line is, we like Zaino, we know about it, know how to use it, Sal is doing OK the way he is selling the product now, perhaps he could do better by making the instructions easier to understand and naming the product differently but that's a point of some argument, and so be it. Not a big deal. Don't know why it blew up into a religious war, but bottom line is it's not worth it. Zaino is cool the way it is, regardless.

DarkWraith33

Man, I go away for ONE DAY and look what happens...

I promise not to call you gents overbearing if you close this down...

VTEC11

joerockt, great find, makes your point very well. Too bad sometimes the simplest things are the hardest to understand for some.

Winterwaves

Of course, Joe's "point" that he makes "very well" was an argument against a NON-EXISTENT point that he PERCEIVED that I was making. I never even mentioned Wal-Mart. He did. So he's essentially posting those links to bolster his one-sided argument with...himself?

You guys might be a lot more successful in persuading me into your way of thinking if you could simply provide the following:

1. Give me one good reason that simpler names, other than the obscure system that is currently used, would not be of benefit to consumers, including first-time users. Give me one good reason why the names Z-2, Z-5, Z-8, ZFX, Z-Fusion, and the like are the best names that could be given to these products.

2. Give me one good reason that having well-written instructions is not a good idea. Give me one good reason why some refinements, corrections of ambiguous steps, and the like would not be of benefit. Give me one good reason to hold onto user instructions that are sub-par.

3. Give me one good reason why a product such as Leather In A Bottle or the Leather Spray could not sit on a shelf right next to a product like Lexol (which IS on Pep Boys shelves). Give me one good reason why the Zaino product is so different from that product. Give me one good reason that, assuming Zaino would be willing to invest resources to pursue this possibility (and maybe they're not willing, but that was not my point), that Zaino's product could not sit on a shelf next to Lexol as a competitor.

Answer me those. And a hint: Saying that Zaino is "for hardcore enthusiasts only, not Wal-Mart dumbfucks" or saying that "Zaino is not SUPPOSED to be easy to use!', are NOT good reasons. First off: Enthusiasts are made, not born, and who's to say that an increased awareness of Zaino products -- even if it's just the leather cleaner or the Z-7 car wash product only -- would not cause some people to check out other more high-end Zaino products, and ultimately create some NEW enthusiasts among the ranks of your so-called "Wal-Mart idiots"? Secondly, saying something should be made unnecessarily more difficult than it could be because, well, it's not supposed to be easy, is pretty twisted logic. So don't give me any of that and try to call them "good reasons."

AlterZgo

24 hrs and no Winterwaves post? C'mon Winterwaves, I'm waiting for your next monologue.

Winterwaves

Nice reply, especially the rolling eyes again. They seem to be all the rage among people that don't have any valid counter-arguments or anything else that is really useful to add to the discussion.

As for monologues -- you're right, it IS a monologue by default if the only replies I get are irrelevant ones like yours that just take cheap shots and address none of the actual points I made. Not my fault if you guys want to make it into a monologue.

I'm done with this thread anyway. Trivial subject, doesn't really make any difference one way or another, I made all of my points several times over, and I received no direct, valid counterarguments in return. Lots of tangential B.S. and rolling-eyes smilies, but that's about it.

There, I posted. Hope you're happy. Have a good 4th.

racer77

I know its been a while sinse the first post, but has anybody here tried F21 wax its the new generation wax from Turtle wax, anybody here know about it?

joerockt

Thought your were done with this topic WW, why do you insist on making yourself look like an ass?

And how many times are you going to say your done with a thread/topic and KEEP POSTING?? What a fucking tool...

DarkWraith33

For the most part, WW is right. Damn near all the opposing views above are pure pablum... At this porint, who the f*ck even cares who's right or wrong... They're all just opinions. This isn't a playoff game. Someone doesn't have to win... I see that rarely within this forum does actual discussion involve any true back and forth. Typically, you people can't step away from anything and look at it objectively, without feeling like you've been personally slighted. OMG get over it...

This would be about the time you realize you have nothing pertinent to say, and rely on things like "look like an ass" and "fucking tool".... Let's all think who comes across as an ass....

You know what the best part is??? THIS is the kicker.... YOU are the one who posted this picture the other day... But YOU still gotta get that last little dig in to feel better about yourself....



Well, we hope you feel better Corkie, YOU WON!!! WOOHOO!!!