My friend has a 2002 Altima and her clear coat is total gone off the hood, roof, and trunk lid. She went to have her car detailed and the wax was stuck to the car. Her car is black and she live in Orl FL and the car is outside everyday. But isnt that not normal for her paint to do that. The guy that was gonna do the detail said the clearcoat is total gone and the car needs to be repainted. Is there a cheaper way out that will work to restore some shine???

 

Clear coat paints don't oxidize in the conventional way single stage paints do so that is not the problem. The problem is clear coat failure, most likely due to a factory problem with the OEM paint. Without seeing a picture I can only guess that by your description the clear is toast.

Only a re-painting will restore it as no amount of polishing can restore the finish mainly because there is no finish left to restore!

Anthony

 

02 and clear coat is gone? that is crazy she must not have taken good care of the exterior. you could try a bottoms up approach. wash, clay, polish, wax, wax, wax(use a syn or poly sealant) make sure car is in the shade and cool to the touch. if that doesn't helkp or work and it may not, repainting is only cure and if you don't the paint will get worse and rust.

 

Cant wax it she took it to a detailer and the wax got stuck. Her cars paint looks just like our 1983 GMC

 

If "stuck" you mean that the top coat has cracks in it and the wax got stuck in those lines then nothing can repair it. It must be re-painted.

Anthony

 

I'd say check with the dealer...may be a warranty issue...paint coverage is usually 7 years, unlimited mileage.

 

I'd definetely take it to the dealer. I dont care if its been in the sun for the last 3 yrs, without protection. CC's shouldnt fail in that short of time......

 

Well, he said its a 2002, so it was probably bought back in 2001. We are now in Summer of 05, so about 4 years. And down here in Orlando, the sun puts a beating on cars finishes. Especially a black car thats outside 24/7. If she's anything like a typical girl, she never waxed it, and it went to shit. Just from hearing how its described, it sounds like a very common case of a person not taking care of their care, letting it go to the point where it needs to be repainted.

 

One more thing, when it is fixed and repainted, or when she gets a new car, let this be a lesson for it not to happen in the future. Spending $40 a month to get a car waxed will save her big time. To repaint all that will probably run her $1200-1500, and if she doesnt pony up the cash, she'll get raped on trade in value.

 

I will drive down and wax it my self. She is totally screwed I am gonna have her go the dealer and see what happens. She has always took the car through auto car washes to.

 

Dont even bother waxing it, you're just wasting your time man. Too little too late. And the dealer isnt gonna do anything, except tell her more of the same. No way he's covering black paint on a 4 year old car.

 

Eric, think POSITIVE man...let him try.

 

Ok ok...on one side, I ll think positive....but on this side, I'm gonna go with REALISTIC.

 

My kind of thinking.

 

This is the reason why the clear coat failed. Notice that the CC failure is only on the top surfaces? It's those damn rollers in the auto car washes.

 

What? Are u nuts? You do know that rollers also go on the sides of the car right? So there should be clear coat failure there also. But there isnt. And why not? Because the top surfaces take the brunt of all that sun constantly beaming down on it, and its always sitting outside. Notice that?

Learn a little bit more about clear coats, the elements, and what paint failure really is before you blame auto car wash rollers for ruining the black paint on a 4 year old car that sits outside in florida heat all the time

 

Oh come on, the heat is nothing. Otherwise EVERY other Acura out there in FL would have suffered clear coat failure. It's the combination of the rollers in the car wash and the sun. Jeez. You do know that once you physically compromise the clear coat, air (oxygen and moisture specifically) gets under and combined with the heat and UV from the sun accelerates clear coat failure. Heck man, I'm a chem. eng. It's just a case of an accelerated reaction.

 

sigh..ok, Mr. Super Chemical Engineer. What ingredient in the combination of the rollers in the car wash and sun make the clear coat fail? And, again, rollers go down the SIDE of the car also. So, why arent the sides messed up? And obviously, you must not have ever spent any time in FL, or else you wouldnt be saying 'the heat is nothing'. On a black car that sits outside all the time, and especially if its not taken care of...it plays a huge part.

I want you to prove to me that the rollers did it. That they must have magically rubbed off the clear coat, but only on the tops, not on the sides. Also, dont you think if the rollers caused clear coat failure, we would have heard about it somewhere? Do you think those rollers were made with the specific idea that they would destroy clear coats? I dont think so.

I honestly dont know why you're looking so much into this, its pretty cut and dry. Elementary actually.

-Girl who never takes care of her car
-Car is black
-Car is 4 years old
-Sits outside all the time
-Hot florida sun.


all these coupled together, easily make me see why the clear coat failed. There was never any protection (wax) put on the car to help shield the clear coat from the elements, which includes the suns UV rays. Over time, the clear coat barrier broke down, oxidized, and now her paint job is ruined. End of story.

 

a black car sitting in the sun can reach 200 degrees in no time.

Wax melts around 117, I think.... Anyway, waxes do not naturally have any UV absorbers in them so they must be added and unless they state they are added then they don't have any UV absorbers.

Our chemical engineer claims that the rollers caused the damage and as a form of evidence he states that there are many black Acura's in the hot Florida sun and that EVERY one of them would have also suffered from clear coat failure.

What he does not take into account is that we can use the same logic and apply it to the rollers in the car wash. Since the rollers degraded the clear coat of the Acura then EVERY Acura, not just black ones, but every color of Acura in Florida that goes to a roller car wash should also suffer from clear coat failure, correct?

Now the more logical explanation to her clear coat failure is improper care and/or lack there-off. It is also possible that it is a re-paint or a factory defect, not enough UV absorbers present in the paint.

We also have no pictures to go by and many of the Acura blacks have no clear coat to begin with so it might be that the paint is heavily oxidized and needs to be buffed out.

It is possible, yet highly unlikely that the car wash caused this type of damage as I am sure a lawsuit or complaint would of been filed against the carwash AND the carwashing industry mags I read would have some type of article in them about this situation, yet I have not read any to date.

Anthony

 

Good post Anthony. Remember though, we're talking about a '02 Altima, not acura. :wink:

 

Whoops, Altima.

I realise that my first reply might have been badly worded. What I meant is that the rollers of the car wash are the TRIGGER factor for the failure. I said the heat is nothing, because the heat alone would not accelerate clear coat failure to that stage so quickly.

Why are you saying that I am claiming that it is ONLY the rollers that caused the clear coat failure?

Anyway, what I am saying is that FIRSTLY, the rollers compromised the clear coat physically. The clear coat is still there, but it may have small cracks, or scratches or a combination.
SECOND, the humid weather of Florida means moisture might have gotten through the cracks into the clearcoat.
THIRD, the hot sun increases the temperature of the surface, making the combination of moisture, oxygen and clearcoat oxidise faster than normal.
FOURTH, the lack of car care in the form of waxing means there is no UV barrier and UV can accelerate reactions as well.

It's the combination that caused it. And not many people would file a lawsuit against a car wash because the damage is not instantaneous. It occurs after a considerable amount of time and by that time it is difficult to put the blame solely on the car wash outfit. Also, people who use auto car washes can't be bothered about the paint condition. That's why they use it. If they go through a car wash and get swirl marks or lines, they just chalk it up to wear and tear.

 

I agree it is improper care. But I don't agree that it is a factory defect or a lack of UV absorbers unless the car has been repainted.

Also, almost all cars have clearcoats, and very rarely are single stage paints, especially since the use of lead-based paints has been phased out for environmental reasons. The majority of modern factory car paints are water-based, and have clearcoats.

 

Aaron, you still havent answered my question. How come the sides arent bad, but the tops are? It would seem to me that little small cracks would also get put in on the sides, and cause all the doors and panels to get oxidized also. Listen, your roller argument carries absolutely no weight with me. Why ? Because I send my car through automatic car washes, and I have a $6k aftermarket paint job. And I dont have any problems whatsoever. I keep it waxed and polished, and it looks perfect. The rollers have absolutely no effect on it.

And again, dont you think it would do this to all cars? Wouldnt all the cars in FL be driving around with bad clear coats? I guarantee you, most people in FL do not wash their cars outside, its too damn hot. Also, if the rollers were causing damage, we would hear about it.

 

Then how is it that an 02 black Lexus SC is a single stage paint? Many Lexus reds and blacks are of the single stage variety. I also believe up until 1998 Acura had single stage and the NSX line uses a tinted clear.

Rollers in the car wash are not going to degrade the clear coat and again, would it not be correct to state that EVERY Acura going through a roller car wash would see this same degrading of the clear coat since you argue that if it was sun damage that EVERY Acura would have sun damage? You failed to respond to that portion of my post.

Please tell me where my logic here is in error?

Thank you,
Anthony

 

I have first-hand experience what the hot sun can do to a black car.

I had a black '96 Integra. The whole time i had it, I washed it but never used any kind of wax/sealant on it. I didn't know anything about car care back then. Several years ago I moved to CA desert. After just 2 years of constantly parking under the hot sun, the hood, roof, and trunk lid of the Integra were totally oxidized. sigh...

 

Anthony, how do you know that the Altima has a single stage paint job? Is there anywere we can find out what type of cars have what type of paint job? Or is there something about the look of the finish where you can tell?

 

I do not know for sure if the Altima does or does not but there is any easy way to tell. Take some cleaner wax or a paint polish and rub it on a section of the car. If, when you have rubbed it in well, there is paint transfer on the cloth then you have single stage paint. In other words if your car is red and you rub some cleaner wax on it and the rag comes up red then you have a single stage paint.

I don't detail many Altima's.......OK, honestly I have never detailed an Altima, but some early 01, 02 Japanese cars have single stage paints.

I believe what are chemical engineer guy is stating is that the car washing rollers started the paint degradation and the sun finished it off. I believe everything but the car washing roller theory.

Paint will absorb, in a heavy rain say, up to (I think) a pint of water even though paint by its nature is hydrophobic, meaning it does not unite with water. So water getting into the paint which is caused by rollers in a car wash and thus causing paint failure doesn't jive with me.

Anthony

 

You're saying that if it was the rollers, then the clear coat on the sides would be failing as well. I am saying, the rollers contributed and probably started the damage. The neglect by the owner meant that the damage was not slowed down. But the fact that the top was damaged and not the sides is due to the sun. I said in my proper reply that it was the combination of the rollers, sun, neglect and FL humidity. The sides probably got less sun (horizontal surfaces get more sunlight than vertical surfaces).

 

The rollers will damage the paint. Have you tried washing your car with a terry towel? The rollers are harsher than a terry towel because of the speed at which it spins.

As I said, the rollers are probably the trigger that started it. The combination of the sun, neglect and humidity (as well as continuous usage of auto car washes) probably lead it to failure.

Do you wax your car after you send it through the auto car wash? Would you dare not wax after washing ever?

 

My statement about the rollers is based on the Altima having 2 stage paint and the damage on the clearcoat. If the Altima does in fact have a single stage paint, then my explanation is wrong.

 

Sigh, and still, here we are, at square one. So, if rollers damage the paint, why hasnt there been a crackdown on rollers being used on cars? Why havent we heard a million stories about rollers damaging paint and causing clear coat failure? Why are car washes still even in business then? Dont you think the roller industry would be bankrupt by now, with all the millions of cars they've ruined? On this entire thread, you're the only one continually harping that the rollers harm vehicles. EVERYONE else shares the same opinion. Give it up man, you're argument holds no weight. Show me conclusive evidence that the rollers caused clear coat failure. Show me one study, one paragraph, one test trial, one anything that states such, and I'll call you a genius. Until then, I 'll call you an idiot.

 

Aaron..I believe you are correct in stating there are multiple factors that contribute to the breakdown of ANY type of paintjob...regardless of how many coats, etc. UV rays, chemicals in the air, road debris(including cars leaking gasoline, oil, other fluids) while you drive down the highway, water spots/etched paint, dirt on the road essentially sand-blasting your car at high speeds, over-agressive rubbing/polishing, using the wrong product on your paint...or faulty clear coating from the factory itself. It's a jungle out there.

And Eric...Come On Man ...you should be stating the opposite. How can you say that those filthy-ass car washes with their filthy rollers, hanging straps don't cause damage??? Those things are never cleaned, they trap dirt & who knows what else in their fibers and proceed to rub them over your vehicle. No one, I repeat, NO ONE with a custom paint job would ever in their right mind send their freshly painted baby through a quickie-wash to be beat on by those filthy rags. A hands-only wash...maybe, sure...but the auto washes...they are torture on paint. You of ALL people here should know that. If not, maybe you need glasses for your peepers dude.

Hell, the last 'hooptie' I owned used to visit the quickie wash down the street...damn rags would SHAKE my car back/forth...now, nobody can tell me that that amount of force...with those filthy rags...did nothing to damage my paint. The car was dark green...the paint showed massive fade after 18 months of auto washes.

Eric...no one is saying that you didn't do a fine job detailing the cars at St Marys...but, you gotta concede to common sense dude, it's not a poor reflection on your skill level as a detailer to admit those rags cause damage to the paint.

 

Well, include me then, cause I've had enough damage to my car done by auto-washes to have written a report or two if I'd have known I'd have needed it for you.

It's not a matter of 'big crackdown on rollers'...people who go through quickie washes are normally not uber car care fanatics like most of the forum members here...I'm guessing older folks, women, lazy people...whatever. People like that don't park their cars in the last spot of the mall parking lot, they don't check for dings every time they get into their car, they have no idea what polymers or claying do/are, etc. They just want the dirt off their car...and they'll normally drive right off into the sun with the water spots still hangin.

All it takes is one black vehicle, ran through one of those washes and anybody will be able to see the tiny scratches those machines leave behind. I did that ONE time on my 98 Maxima...that was all it took for me.

 

Chris, I have no problem sending my car through the auto wash. Like I said, I keep it waxed and polished, and I have no problems. The rollers do not cause any damage. If its a decent place, they will have soft cloth instituted into their rollers, not bristle. Also, we clean our tunnel at the end of every day, to make sure everything is nice and tidy. If something does happen, and believe me, out of thousands of washes, we might get 3 complaints a month. Out of those 3, 2 just didnt notice what they're complaining about, and the other might be legit. What does sometimes happen is that something might get caught in the cloth. I've it happen that metal shards out of a work truck got embedded in the cloth, and completely ruined the next 3 cars, which we had to pay for a repaint. Was it the rollers fault? No, this idiot has metal shards from a construction job back there,and it slipped by us. Things have happened with rollers, I dont dispute that. Like anything else, something will eventually go wrong. HOWEVER, it does not contribute to clear coat failure, which is the point I'm trying to make.

 

Well, if someone used a quickie wash often enough, I'm sure the paint will take a beating...let's say 2-3 times a week. That amount of abrasion on the paint is gonna take it's toll, no matter how soft the bristles are. No different than over-polishing with a terry towel...it happens. Any thing that touches the car will make an abrasion...short of a $30 Microfiber towel...etc. Not saying it could happen after 2 washes, of course...it will most likely take a few months of steady washing.

If we had nothing but nice clean cars like yours or mine going through those machines...I'm sure there would be alot less damage to consider...just because there is less dirt on the cars to be moved around anyhow, get caught in the bristles, etc. But those filthy bastards with their muddy trucks do not help those shiny new paint jobs.

It's good to hear your peeps clean their stuff out daily...I know alot that don't.

 

Katana18, I'm not here to throw personal insults at you. All I am stating is the personal experience I've had with these types of car washes. The one with rollers scratch. Unless your paint is somehow harder than a wet roller spinning at high speed (try hitting someone with a dry towel and with a wet towel, ask them which is more painful), it's very unlikely that your car would come out without a single scratch.
Even those car washes done by hand. You can say that they are gentle and such, but those people washing you car use drying cloths that I've personally seen dropped onto the floor, then picked up and the guy resumed drying with that same cloth!

Yes, millions of cars out there might be ruined. But owners just chalk it up to wear and tear and get a respray, or even change cars. Many people lease so that they can have a new car every 3-4 years. They wouldn't even have the chance of observing the damage. Those who do use the auto car washes, but also use a wax, be it the worst brand of wax that you can buy, might still get away by delaying the damage since the tiny micro cracks/scratches/whateveryouwanttocallit are sealed and oxidation is delayed.