OctoberFestFan

Oh boy! I just noticed that I have never changed my brake fluid in my TL for the past 63k..... the resv. is pitch black.
Need to change it this weekend.. has anyone gone this long without changing your b.fluid?

01tl4tl

Its supposed to be done every year- starting year 3
Be glad you decided to do it now before damage is caused
bleed order LF RF RR LR

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

A lot of ppl have gone that long and more. It's not a good idea but it's common. Do yourself a favor and get some MOTUL DOT 5.1 while you're changing it. We usually can do it with 1 liter but you may want to take 1.5 liters to be safe.

http://store.excelerateperformance.c.../i-112638.aspx

Excelerate

iTrader: (1)

I have received a PM on this matter and I want to state something so there is no confusion.

I recommended DOT 5.1. DOT 5 brake fluid is not designed for Acura vehicles; it is a silicone based brake fluid. MOTUL DOT 5.1 is compatible with DOT 3 and 4 brake fluid since it is glycol based.

01tl4tl

thanks for clearing that up Josh- I was among the confused~
5.0 and 5 point ONE are very different fluids!!!

Guess I need some for my car with its upgraded brake parts and ss lines,
get the super duper racer fluid!!

01tl4tl

for those going to look in the master cylinder now- if the fluid is grey- you got problems
If its clear/yellow to black- change it and you will be fine

After the first time learning- its a 15 minute job for all 4 wheels
First time- 30-45 minuts, and you choose what fluid to use
Dealer or shop charges 100 for this service, and it really needs to be done every year to protect an expensive ABS system and calipers

01tl4tl

gen2 and 3 do not require any special reset tool or other things-

Houston

Since I'll be doing my brakes this weekend, I guess I'll be doing the brake fluid too. I've never done it before, but I've learned other things as I went along and did them for the first time. Do we have a DIY or can somebody explain it to me? I have my own tools and am no rookie to working on cars.

xen-cuts

I have no idea how to do this. Can someone put up a DIY?

FiveShifts

I've changed brake fluid on every car I've ever owned, but the recommended sequence has always been the furthest away from master cylinder to the closest. e.g. RR, LR, RF, LF. Without benefit of an Acura shop manual, I can't confirm 01tl4tl guidance.

Recruit a friend or other patient person to help- you'll need them later. Go get your safety glasses and put them on - otherwise don't attempt this maintainance.

Gain access to the caliper by safely jacking up the car. Get a piece of clear 1/8" dia Tygon tubing about 16" long from a local hardware store. Push the tubing over the bleed fitting on the caliper. Fill a clean jar or container with about 6 - 8 oz of brake fluid- your choice of DOT4 or better. Place the open end of the tubing into the container of clean fluid. Immerse it in the fluid throughout tis process.

Verify that the master cylinder is indeed full- top off as required. During this process, crack loose- but DO NOT completely remove, the master cylinder cap.

Using a box wrench or flare nut wrench, open the bleeder fitting. BE CAREFUL!- do not bend or strain the fitting while turning it. If it doesn't crack loose at first, try tightening slightly instead, then loosen. You only need to open it a little bit- no more than ~1/2 -3/4 turn.
Now, have your assistant get inside the car. Have him/her press the brake pedal down- not all the way, but enough to push the fluid out of the caliper. Hold the tubing in the jar while bleeding. You'll see the "slugs" of fluid moving through the clear tubing. Press the pedal enough times to drain the master cylinder to about 1/4 full. Don't drain it down completely. Once it's bled out to ~1/4 full, refill it with new clean fluid. Now continue until the fluid coming out of the caliper is clean. Once you see that it is, have assistant press and hold the pedal. Now close off the fitting. Release the pedal and refill the master cyl. Pump up the pedal slowly to restore pressure. Carefully remove the tube and allow the residual fluid to drain into the jar.

Repeat for each caliper/fitting. Don't let the fluid come in contact with paint or bodywork, or especially, your EYES! Dispose of the old fluid responsibly- maybe JiffyLube or other quick lube shop will take it.

01tl4tl

I am pretty well regarded as the gen 2 brake guru and if you will look in the brake DIY in the DIY section you will find I am stating from the book on bleed order
the TL with its abs has a special order that MUST be followed
As for most of the directions given above- I would ignore them and go read stuff that ziners including myself have written
The best tool is a turkey baster- suck out most but not all fluid- have a small water bottle next to the master to transfer old fluid too- put clean shop towel/rages around/under the master as you will get a few drips and does eat paint as noted above

do NOT uncover the holes on bottem of master cyl- refill with new fluid- cap tightly
4 pumps and open- yadayada

NOTE: place a small 2x4 or similar under brake pedal so as to limit its travel to 3/4 of the way to the floor- if pushed to the floor- the seals inside the master are pushed into unused territory and can be damaged!!!-

you will have clean fluid after 4-5 sets of pumps and open-release-then do few more times to be safe-
refill the master and move to the next wheel
I have done this numerous times on my car and other TL-they are all the same exact procedure

Do the brake fluid flush BEFORE the brake work- otherwise when you compress the pistons you backwash crud up the system - better to change it first and not cause problems

Houston

Too bad there isn't a vid or pics, but I'll try it. Should I just use the Acura fluid?

FiveShifts

You can't go wrong with factory stuff, but you'll probably pay a premium. I use Castrol GTX, but other Acura owners may be more knowledgable about the best choice.

TylerT

iTrader: (1)

Thanks FiveShifts. I'll be bleeding my brakes very soon!

Legend2TL

The brake fluid is Castrol LMA (GTX is their conventional multi-viscousity motor oil). It's great stuff and works well in Acura/Honda's.

01tl4tl

any name brand is ok as long as it says DOT3 or DOT4 on the label
thats the govt testing standard it meets

Standard/normal brake fluid is good for most drivers
Aggressive drivers or snow country- high air moisture areas, may try Synthetic brake fluid- better moisture resistance.

note: fluid is cheap- 6 bucks a qt for synthetic, 4 bucks a qt for standard...racing stuff 15. Change it every year and save yourself problems and big cash later!

bmaczo6

iTrader: (1)

I have never heard of anyone damaging master cylinder seals by pushing the brake pedal to the floor. I do not recall ever reading a recommedation to not push the pedal to the floor. Please provide me with a link to your sources so I can read up on it.

Changing the fluid before a brake job is another one I have to question. I think it makes more sense to crack the bleeder when you push the piston into the caliper, complete the brake job, and then flush the system. I don't see any advantage to do it backwards.

Legend2TL

In the really old days (60's-70's) I heard limiting the amount of travel on a master cylinder. But all the master cylinder bores I've looked since the 80's look phenominal in terms of polishing and smoothness so there is no reason to do it anymore. The key area of polishing is the fluid relief holes which is at the beginning of the bore to allow brake fluid to fill the brake cylinder. These cause most of the wear on the piston cups on the master piston seals. I took apart the old master cylinder for my 1989 Legend after I replaced it, it looked great in the entire bore, almost mirror smooth. Modern tooling is great.

So in short the 2x4 is not needed on modern cars. A 1965 Chevy Impala with a original Bendix master cylinder, I would be careful.

Oh one last thing, in order to get someone to help you. Have WiFi available. My 15 year old daughter surfed the web with her notebook PC from the front seat of my 2005 TL when I changed the brake fluid recently. It made it alot easier than listening to her say "When will we be done?' every 10 minutes.

FiveShifts

Yep, I blew it when referencing Castrol fluid...it's LMA. I've used it extensively and never had a problem. Of course I change it out every two-three years, so it's safe to assume I'd not see an issue anyway.

You can also buy (or maybe rent??) a device that attaches over the top of the master cylinder. It feeds the reservoir w/fluid and pressurizes the system. That way you don't stroke the piston at all and can do it w/one person.

As for the merits or source of info on pedal travel. It's not a matter of recommendation by a given mfr or manual. It's just old habit. Probably doesn't matter given the smooth bore referenced by Legend2TL.

Legend2TL

i've been using the Prestone DOT 3 and DOT4 synthetic for the last 6 years (it's hard to find Castol LMA in MD). The stuff works great.

I also agree to change more often (every two years to the schedule's three years, changing every year won't hurt anything). The cost of the ABS/VSA modulator alone is ~$1K, more than the cost of the four calipers combined.

01tl4tl

the book calls for every year starting at year 3
Pushing the seals past their normal working area is going into unknown territory
If your helper is smart they can be told to limit travel to normal range of brke pedal travel,,,but my helper is not so good

I am basing this on older, not cared for systems- gen2 cars essentially-which is what I drive and have worked on.

Sure you can open the bleeder and compress the piston- thats works too
BUT
Many people attempting a first DIY- rather than risk them shooting brake fluid everywhere, I say to do the flush procedure first. There are bonafide reasons.
All you have to do then is leave room in the master cyl for the rising brake fluid, but at least it will ALL be clean fluid going backwards,
whereas the other method leaves all the crud in there, just waiting to get pushed backwards up the lines to spread and destroy a seal somewhere, maybe even the abs controller.
wiki `hygroscopic` for a better understanding of fluids and moisture absorbtion.

Am I an alarmist, or just trained by an aircraft mechanic...to a standard that says
there is perfect and everything else is bull,,,,

Legend2TL

One last note, you haven't changed brake fluid until you've bleed the brakes and ABS on a 1G Legend. The brake fluid in the pressure accumulator was under high pressure, so when you released it unless you used the Acura tool. Brake fluid sprayed all over the ABS pump/accumulator. This was the 1G ABS Honda system before they integrated all the ABS components into one unit. Ahhhh those were the messy days.

It's also great you do not need a separate tool to open/close the pressure valves in the ABS modulator. It actually happens everytime you start the car. If you listen carefully you can hear a mufflied thunk/thunk which is the ABS valves opening and closing recirculating fresh brake fluid into the internal workings of the ABS modulator so the seams do not get fouled over time. A very common occurance on 1G Legends.

01tl4tl

I dont push the pistons all the way into the caliper either!
There is no need to, the new pads- even with new rotors, still wont require that much room.
It pushes a thin o-ring into unused territory- again, is yours polished smooth new perfect inside still??,
or is it grey cruddy fluid came out the caliper when you did a test flush on one brake?

To be really good about it- especially brembo guys- this is right from brembo
Once a year to take out the pads and extend and compress the pistons several times to keep it all moving. All of us can do that with a 2x4 in the caliper to keep it together, and a tool to flat-ly compress the piston into the cylinder, is my choice of methods

Caliper piston movement it less than 2mm in most cases,,1 mm from pad to rotor clearance while running is normal- so you have brakes now -when you push the pedal.
Thats not a lot of travel for the oring

Does it hurt to do extra good job, far better than any shop?
or is it just making sure your car is trouble free for enjoyable trips
I'm different

01tl4tl

wow gen1 what a pain~
gen2 and gen3 are no special tools required to completly change out the brake fluid
Shops charge 100 dollars for this easy DIY
There are several methods to do it by,I find the old school way simple and fast
I know the fluid is clean and bubble free (shouldnt be any bubbles since you only changed fluid, not opened a brake line) and then do a little extra because I have plenty of fluid!
Have done the procedure several times on my TL in the process of installing legend calipers, then SS lines, mountain fun runs/track days freshen the fluid before and after...got it down to a simple procedure now

FiveShifts

I'd go with flushing first, even if I was going to push the caliper back to accomodate the new pads later. If so, leave room in the master else, Huge Mess!

Can you get away with <full compression of the caliper piston if you've installed new rotors? Figure at least another 1-2 mm of distance w/new rotor. That's another reason to flush b4 three years and then every other year when you're rotating the tires or swapping out winter wheels or whatever.

westas2

Is 1/8" tubing the correct size for 04 6MT? Seems kind of small.

XxAfG786xX

is it 1/8"?

Tripnbeats

i do the change every 15k i live in the city so brake wear is increased. plus im anal...the slightest sign of wear or black fluid...its replaced.

XxAfG786xX

mine is pitch black....im trying to do it friday once the weather gets up to 60 degrees cause this 32 degree weather is not helping...

ross7778

Just did mine today following the tech book. Not much fluid came out. Barely a quart. Am I supposed to retighten and pump the brakes a few times at each wheel? Is the key supposed to be on?

Majofo

don't turn the engine over but if you want the power steering assist to turn the wheels you can key it. You want to pump enough to clear the line.. as soon as you see good fluid coming out (eg. almost the same color & consistency coming out as going in) then you tighten up the line and move to the next, no need to pump after you tighten.. refill the Master Cyl, cap and bleed next line. I used just about a full quart to do mine the last time.. but had just enough to top off following the procedure after a day of driving but didn't need it.

01tl4tl

how much fluid comes out is up to you!
keep adding to the master and pumping out the bleeder until you are happy
A qt is normal for most, unless you had really nasty fluid
Do each wheel until the fluid is clean and clear- all new

01tl4tl

at each wheel you should be doing at least 5 sets of pump 4 times and hold pedal down- open bleeder slightly to allow fluid out at each wheel
tighten bleeder and pump brake 4 times and hold- repeat
Use a small block of 2x4 wood under brake pedal to limit the pedal travel to its normal distance
Going to the floor is bad for the master cyl

On caliper pistons- no need to retract them fully- pushing past normal travel hurts orings
Even with new rotors you have plenty of room with pistons slightly protruding to put it all together

Note bleed order is driver front then clockwise= LF RF RR LR ONLY

ross7778

That explains it. I only did one set of pump 4 times and hold the pedal down.

Thanks for the tip.

01tl4tl

how much fluid did you think came out??? with just 1 cycle of fluid ?-
Use a clear hose to watch the action~
remove most but not all of the old fluid from the master cyl with a $2 turkey baster
DONT uncover the brake line holes at bottem side of resivour

Add new fluid slowly- it will sit on top of the old fluid, so as you push fluid with each opening of the bleeder- new fluid gets pulled into the lines and goes to the calipers

To do an extra good job, or if you had the brake lines off or open for any reason:
Do a 45mph to stop with ABS active, then full throttle to 45 and ABS stop,
if the pedal felt firmer the 2nd time there was air in the controller (if lines were opened) and now its at a caliper to be removed
In the case of flushing- we want to move old fluid thru and using the ABS will help-
throw water on one side of the street and brake fully to make abs work
That will cycle its pump and push fluid thru- pulling clean new fluid in

I dont now what the tech book says on procedure, but there are good brake diy's on here

NetDiver

Here's a scan from the manual, if anyone needs it.

rollaaa

I tried bleeding the brakes today, but after pumping several times the pedal still feels loose. and once its held down and the the valve opened, only maybe 1-3 inches of fluid comes out into the clear tubing.

is this normal? i thought the pedal was suppose to stiffen up and more fluid comes out.

BradE

Make sure you keep the master cylinder full, if you don't you are sucking air into the line, and it will cause the pedal to be soft. If it gets in the ABS pump, you might need to take to the dealer so they can cycle it with a scan tool to get the air out.

rollaaa

It was full when I started, and never got below the MIN line. I guess ill try again tomorrow

01tl4tl

I dont think you have the concept yet

Place a small block of 2x4 wood under the brake pedal to limit its travel to normal range- not to the floor!

Now have helper pump pedal 4 times at normal speed and hold like on a steep hill.
You open the bleeder 1/4 turn- a few inches of fluid comes out- helper calls out DOWN to indicate pedal on wood- you close bleeder and say OK
Helper pumps pedal 4 times and holds- repeat until clear fluid comes thru then a few more sets to be sure
refill master cyl and move to next wheel

Pedal wont feel better till fluid is changed out and fresh stuff is in action
Then it should feel firm on first push- and same with quick 2nd push

If just changing fluid there should not be air bubbles- just old fluid comes out

REMOVE wood block and test drive
Do 2 ABS active stops from 45mph- pedal should feel the same on both
If better on 2nd effort- rebleed brakes