Cheval

I've read this thread 2 times and am a bit confused as to whether it's still recommended to use the Motul 5.1 on a TL with standard brake pads? Someone was saying not to use them until the pads are changed out with better/aftermarket brake pads? My car is a 2008 and still has original brake fluid and pads. Car only has 18,000 miles though.... Just not sure if I should get that or just the Honda brake fluid.

Assuming Motul 5.1 is still the recommended brake fluid, how long do the containers last if they're not opened? I'm asking because no place sells them near me and the best deal I can find appears to be a case of 12 from Amazon for $92.19 shipped. Since water is attracted to this stuff just want to be sure it will be good for 3-4 years on the shelf before I go and get a case of it...

TIA

ez12a

pretty sure as long as the seal isnt broken the shelf life is well over a year, and when you open it the fluid should be clear/nearly colorless.

but dont get me wrong, there is a shelf life, but as long as you dont plan on keeping it for more than a few years. Plastics are microscopically porous. If you buy the case simply sell it to your friends.

94eg!

Un-opened cans of brake fluid can last a long time on the shelf. It's the opened ones you need to watch out for. Once a can has been opened, consider it used. You can keep it around for simple top-offs, but that's about it. Also topping off your fluid is not a very good idea. Low brake fluid is the first sign of worn pads.

lokijibber

I haven't checked said sticker, but there is NO way I would let brake fluid sit in the lines for 10 years.

Thanks for bumping this! I'm swapping my fluid this weekend and I would have certainly started at the right rear and worked closer (I need to get a service manual NOW!). Where are you located? I'd take 2 qts off your hands.

nfnsquared

^^^^ Dude, that is for coolant and was a direct response to the post immediately preceeding it asking a question about coolant.

SM interval for brake fluid is 3 years.

lokijibber

^^^Thanks for clarifying. My bad for skimming so quickly, but 10 years seems like a long time for any fluid. I guess it makes my life easier though for sure.

Cheval

hey no worries...I'm in Oklahoma. That's quite a ride away from Pennsylvania. I can't sell any to my friends since none do their own maintenance like this....

hmmm maybe it's best I just try and order what I need at a time. From what I was reading on here two bottles seem to be enough for changing the brake fluid totally over it seems so I will probably just get two. It takes less than I thought so I'd have ten left over bottles from a case. Didn't realize it would be that many I'd have sitting around so I don't think that's pratical. $20 for 2 bottles of Motul seem to be the price so that's not too bad...

Also the scans from the service manual for the brakes are on post #36 of this thread on page 1.

I hate cars

5.1 is a thinner fluid and can enhance ABS operation. I'm running it right now but will probably go with a high temp standard viscosity fluid the next time.



I wouldn't go that long without changing coolant. I bought the car brand new and did a drain and fill of the radiator after 2 years. What came out surprised me. I had a ton of sand come out most likely left over from the casting process of the heads and block. I'm glad I didn't leave all of that sand circulating around for 10 years. Plus, if you do a simple drain and fill of the radiator which only requires opening a single valve you never have to do a coolant flush. The radiator holds about the same amount of coolant as the engine so you're getting rid of half of it with a drain and fill and it only takes about 10 minutes of your time.

Cheval

ok I ended up going to Advance and buying Valvoline synthetic DOT 3 & 4 brake fluid. This way I can buy more as needed rather than playing the mailorder guessing game as to how much I'll need of the 5.1 stuff. Hopefully the valvoline is better than the stock Honda brake fluid.

The tubing I bought at Lowe's is .170" ID...is that close enough? I couldn't find any 1/8" ID tubing. This is for a '08 base so no Brembos here or anything.

Bearcat94

The thread linked below lists a variety of compatible brake fluids and their wet/dry boiling points. It aslo has some general info on DOT3, DOT 4 and DOT 5.1 specs.

https://acurazine.com/forums/3g-tl-performance-parts-modifications-112/d-002-tl-compatible-brake-fluids-boiling-point-specs-793891/

94eg!

I can't remember the size that works best. But if your tubing is too tight, use a lighter to soften the vinyl up and a pair of needle nose pliers to stretch the end till it fits over the bleed nipple. Once you get it right, it will pop on and off.

Cheval

Thanks for the comments

I was just about to do the brake fluid change but came across this recall and them talking about it on other forums (bobistheoilguy?). Any word on the special polymers that are supposedly used in the Honda brake fluid?

http://money.cnn.com/2010/10/25/auto...call/index.htm

Seriously, between this and the discussion on the Honda ATF my head is about to explode. Thinking the best bet is just to go and have the dealer change the stuff and live in blissful ignorance of what is in there. My Acura is still under warranty so don't want them bitching at me if something goes wrong with the brakes and the Honda brake fluid isn't in there.

Any thoughts besides "Just STFU and do the change--the Honda police won't break down your door" ?

Does it not matter as much with this model TL as it does with some Honda models? As you can tell I'm confused as to what is best. Currently have 2 bottles of the Valvoline DOT 3/4 brake fluid sitting here.

SpiderX1016

Just STFU and do the change--the Honda police won't break down your door

If it makes you feel any better, I use that Valvoline brake fluid on my TL.

nfnsquared

Hmmm... Interesting...First I've heard of that. I know that you want to be sure and use Honda or Honda compatible power steering fluid, but have not heard of any issues with non Honda brake fluid.

FWIW, I am on my third year of the second change of non-Honda (O'reilly brand) DOT 3/4 brake fluid and have suffered no ill effects. (8.5 years of ownership).

I hate cars

Most of the BITOG guys are idiots and self made internet experts. Be very discriminating of who you believe.

Use any DOT 3,4, or 5.1 fluid you want.

Use any ATF you want.

Use only Honda or Amsoil PS fluid .

Use only Honda coolant.

Use any SL or SM 5w-20 to 10w-40 engine oil.

Cheval

Thanks for the help everyone!

Well, I did the brake fluid change and I'm still here and didn't manage to blow the car up so looks like I'm in good shape.

I used the Valvoline DOT 3/4. Was a little amount of crap in the reservoir (nothing even close to that TSX picture) and I just sucked it up with the turkey baster. Squeeky clean now

Main notes of interest:

I noticed lots of bubbles in the line and trying to stop it I about blew a blood vessel I was getting so pissed. I raised the white flag and decided to just observe it and see what was happening. It didn't seem to be going into the brake at all. I'd see the bubble come into the line and push the previous bubbles down towards the drain bottle. It seems to be what the previous poster was talking about that the fluid trying to drain down is drawing air to suck down into the line. I did as advised and only opened the nut 1/4 turn (if even that) so didn't seem to be any that went into the brake. Did the 2 45mph ABS stops in the pouring rain and the brake peddle was firm both times so all seems good. Flushed 64oz thru it all.

My only 2 concerns are:

1. I made sure not to push the brake peddle too far down but a few times I got close to the floor without realizing. Didn't floor it but I think I was a good 90% of the way there. Hopefully I didn't screw the pooch.

2. I didn't have a torque wrench but I tried to tighten the nuts pretty firm. Any word on how delicate that nut is on the drains? I'm guessing I tightened it more than 7lb-ft (if I remember correctly what it's supposed to be). Just want to make sure it doesn't leak.

BTW I used the method on page 1 for doing it by myself.

SpiderX1016

Have someone help you out with the pedal pumping. I don't recommend doing it yourself unless you know what you're doing.

You need the drain tube to be submerged in some brake fluid in the catch bottle or you're going to be sucking air back in.

Cheval

I started off by putting some brake fluid in the drain bottle before I started. After a few pumps I looked and didn't see the brake fluid trying to go in reverse.

Air never went in from the drain bottle end or from the reservoir since I never let it get below the minimum line.

ETA: I actually did 3 ABS stops and the pedal felt the same all 3 times so I guess it all came out good. Did seem to feel firmer I must say....

gdong

I haven't crawled underneath to take at how much room I have, but are you guys removing the wheel to access it?

I have the brembo brakes and I can see the outer nipple right away, but not the inner on all 4 wheels.

94eg!

I did my brembo's without removing the wheels. By the time I was done, I was wishing I had just removed the wheels. BTW: Clean everything off with water REALLY well. Any brake fluid left in the bleed port of the caiper will dribble out later on and eat the paint right of your fancy caliper. My left outer did this and I was not a happy camper. And this was AFTER I cleaned everything really well with soap & water twice.

gdong

damn, sorry to hear about the caliper

Also what's the exact tubing diameter that I should be using for this? Thanks!

94eg!

Doesn't matter, you won't find it anywhere. I went to several autoparts stores looking for clear tubing and they acted like I was from another planet asking for such a thing. Hardware stores sell various sizes of clear vinyl tubing, but they only sell like 10' rolls now (no by-the-foot). And even their stuff was too big or too small and costs over $5.

I ended up using cheap fish-tank vinyl tubing from the walmart fish section for a dollar. I had to stretch the end by hitting it with a lighter and shoving the tip of the needle-nose pliers to spread it out. This works great.

gdong

awesome, thanks a lot for your help!

nfnsquared

I would remove the tire/wheel.

As far as the tubing, I forget what I used, but it's listed earlier in one of my posts in this thread. 1/4" I think. I got my clear tubing at Oreilly's.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Really don't need clear tubing as a piece of rubber hose will do fine and the bubbles will appear in the fluid if there are any.

Dogboss

Just wanted to say thanks to all the posts.
I just bought an 05 Tl and figured I would start doing all the prevent stuff so no guessing as to when stuff was done.

If someone new is reading this use 1/4" tubing not 1/8" as I read somewhere else on the post.

I used an entire bottle (32 oz) when flushing the lines. The car must have been neglected on the brake flush becuase it was black....like Joan Jett hair black. Everything went as described in the posts (post#40 helped the most).

I guess its normal but on the driver rear alot of gunk came out. small rust particles and such. Anyways thanks again for the posts on it. The cars brakes are much better and I was amazed at how responsive they are!!!

Dogboss

Lowes carries the tubing I think I paid 62 cents for 2 feet of 1/4".

I hate cars

That sucks someone neglected the car that bad. I would do another flush no longer than a year from now because chances are its going to get dark quickly again and its almost impossible to get all of the moisture out the first time. If there was rust, there was excessive moisture.

HQTL6SPD

I am super grateful at all the info and advice on this thread. Today I flushed my fluid using super blue and am amazed at how much of a difference it made!

It was well overdue, the old fluid was green and tarnished, pretty disgusting. 1 liter was more than enough to flush my Brembos. I was even generous at how much fluid got pumped through the lines. Pumped several extra sets after seeing clean blue coming out and I still have over a 1/3 of a bottle to spare..

I hate cars

Since this was brought up I thought I would mention what happened to me the other day. I'm on the Stoptech 13" BBK and Motul 600 fluid. I bled my brakes well as I always do several months ago, maybe 6 months ago when I installed the new brakes and fluid. The pedal has gotten a little softer over time to the point it's annoying. It's not the usual spongy air in the brake line feeling, just a little additional travel in the pedal.

Since I've been tuning the stereo constantly I haven't pushed the car hard in a very long time, almost since I first got the brakes and did all of the braking data. So I was cruising at 65mph and decided to see how quickly it would stop. So I stop, get back up to speed and coast to a light. When I hit the brakes the pedal had almost zero travel. Just a very firm pedal. Naturally I hit ABS again and it felt like it might have improved slightly the second time as well.

I think it's somewhat important to hit the ABS once in a while. I'm not sure about ours but in some setups, probably ours too, the fluid won't get cycled unless you hit ABS, that includes air too. So if the pedal has softened over time, give it a hard ABS stop and it may work some of the air out. The weird thing is this did not feel like air at all. If felts like there was just too much mechanical slack between the pedal and master cylinder. All I know is that was 3 days ago and it's still great.

dcmodels

I did not see the following mentioned in this thread, but I did not read every single post.

When I would use a vacuum pump to 'flush/ bleed' the brakes on various motorycles, I would get air sucked past the bleed-valve threads, visible as bubbles in the clear vinyl bleed tubing. This did not seem to actually pull air into the caliper, but it was disconcerting, as it appeared that there was air in the calipers. So ...

I would use a Q-tip to put a 'glob' of silicone di-electric grease around the bleed-nipples. The grease is too thick to be pulled into the caliper, especially if the bleed-nipple is only opened the 1/4 turn as mentioned in previous posts in this thread.

This would seem to work even better when using the single-person tube-flush with brake-peddle pumping. There would be only very slight 'vacuum' at the bleed-valve on the peddle up-stroke. Or from the capillary action of fluid in the vinyl tube.

Also, silicone grease around the threads, after completed flushing/ bleeding will prevent the bleed-valve from ever corroding and freezing in place, especially if the caliper is aluminum and the nipple is steel (catalytic corrosion from dissimilar metals).

Majofo

Green.. shit, reminds me of the fluid when I first bought my TL. OE fluid is shit. I changed to Castrol GT LMA, that branding is gone, I think it's just Castrol BF now.. Anyways, fluid almost came out as clear as it first went in.

I needed a full qt to flush out all that crap on the first flush. But on my last flush with LMA in, the rears needed only about 1/3rd of a qt to flush and the fronts, less. So it's not unusual to have ~1/3rd left, especially if you're careful to keep air out.

I hate cars

I had the same issue when bleeding the Stoptech calipers on my TL. I went through a pint of fluid before I realized the air was coming from the threads. Good fix btw, I'm going to try that next time.

To clarify mine did this from gravity bleeding without a vacuum applied.

nazTL

Did the brake fluid flush about 2 weeks ago with Castrol GT LMA Lovin it now, but you're right, barely any places carry it anymore. Had to drive 20 miles out to find a CAP that had it

Majofo

It's good, but I think the branding changed over a year ago. So that means the bottles you bought could have been on the shelf for a while. I was assured that the new Castrol branded BF is pretty much the same.

dcmodels

There have been a few posts asking (or commenting) about Honda Dot-3 fluid. I have no data on anything other than the boiling point, which is not as 'bad' as I might have guessed. Data on additive packages in brake fluid, as far as I know, is not available. So I do not know how one goes about guessing on the 'quality' of various brake fluids.

The following is a general comparison, and not inclusive by any means.

LINK to How to Read DATE CODES:
https://acurazine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=775691 post #2

Data/ items in this post with dates were taken from the official manufacturer MSDS. Other data was taken from general web postings, so may not be correct.

Viscosity Comparison cSt @ 100 C/ 20C/ -40C
(BRAKE Fluids - calculated values in bold RED)
2.26/ 17-18/ 1,400 = ATE Super Blue Racing 01/25/11
2.10/ 15-17/ 1,100 = Castrol GT LMA Dot-4 05/02/11
2.3/. 16.76/ 1,200 = Castrol Response Dot-4 (Europe only) 08/08/01
2.03/ 14.5/ 900-1100 = Pentosin Super Dot-4 (OEM GM p/n 8895-8860) 05/14/01
1.90/ 12.3/ ...700 = ATE SL.6 Dot-4 ISO class-6 (Europe only) 09/07/12
...x/ ...5/ .....x = AC Delco Dot-4 (Ethoxinol 430) (AU only) June 2010


THE FOLLOWING ARE THE DOT (department of transportation) REQUIREMENTS FOR BRAKE FLUID:
REQUIREMENTS: ....DOT-2 DOT-3 DOT-4 DOT-5 DOT-5.1 (minimums)
Dry Boiling point ..374 ..401 ..446 ..500 ....500 (Fahrenheit)
Wet boiling point ....x ..284 ..311 ..356 ....356 (Fahrenheit)
cSt @ -40C (max) .....x 1,500 1,800 ..900 ....900
cSt @ 100C (min) .....x ..1.5 ..1.5 ..1.5 ....1.5

NOTE: Honda Dot3 wet boiling point is not specified in the MSDS, but must be at least the minimum for Dot3 type fluid, which is 284 degrees.
....................... DRY ..WET (boiling points in Fahrenheit)
Honda Dot 4 ............. ? ....? (p/n 08203-0004) $6.73/ from motorcycle shops
Honda Ultra Dot 4 ....... ? ....? (p/n ?????) / United Kingdom
Valvoline Dot 3/4 ..... 446 ..311 (yellow color) 03/08/12
Honda Dot3 ........... >450 ....? (p/n 08798-9008(A)- light yellow) 01/26/10
BG Dot3 ............... 480 ....? (yellow to amber) 12/15/10
BG Dot4 ............... 480 ....? (amber) 09/01/10
Delco Supreme 11 Dot3 . 490 ....? (GM p/n 1237-7967, pale yellow) 06/08/95
Prestone Synthetic Dot4 500 ..311
Castrol LMA DOT 3/4 ... 509 ..311 (yellow/ amber color) 05/02/11
Bosch Dot4 ............ 509 ..329
Pentosin Super DOT4 ... 518 ..338 (OEM GM Dot-4 p/n 8895-8860, yellow) 01/11/11
Castrol Response DOT4 . 518 ..338 (Europe only) 08/08/01
ATE Super Blue Racing . 536 ..388 (metal can: blue color) 01/28/11
ATE TYP 200 ........... 536 ..388 (metal can: amber color)
Ford Heavy Duty DOT3 .. 550 ..290 (absorbs moisture quickly)
Performance Friction .. 550 ..284 (metal can)
Motul Racing 600 Dot4 . 585 ..421
Castrol SRF Dot4 ...... 590 ..518 ($75/ liter)
__________________________________________________ ___________
NOTE on VISCOSITY CALCULATIONS: the following web site can be used to calculate a viscosity CURVE for an oil, if either the viscosity at a known temperature is provided, or if the VI (viscosity index) is provided. Also, viscosity conversions can be done from one system to another. Different conversion tables on the site use different numbers of decimal points, which can affect the accuracy of the conversions. I do not know how to verify the accuracy of the calculations.
LINK: http://widman.biz/English/Calculators/Graph.html

SOURCES OF MSDS information:
Most major oil web sites will offer online MSDS (manufacturer safety data sheet) information. However, Honda does not manufacturer its own fluids. And uses fluids from various different manufacturers. Sometimes a distributor will offer Honda MSDS information. Otherwise, the following two links can provide additional MSDS information, if unavailable elsewhere.

LINK: http://www.worldpac.com/msds/
LINK: http://www.msdsonline.com/FindMSDS/Default.aspx

Vlad_Type_S

iTrader: (3)

I just changed the brake fluid on my TL last night. I started out with a vacuum pump and was getting A LOT of air. I quickly realized that it was impossible for the system to have had that much air in it and still have had my brakes working properly. So my gf helped me pump the brakes. Sure enough, no air came out starting with the first pump of the pedal.

I really like your suggestion! But I would be extremely paranoid of grease entering the calipers, especially with the Brembo's ($350 each at best). I think there might be an alternative solution which I will try the next time I do this.

Assuming there is no air in the brake lines, It seems that there are two entry points for the air:
1) The first is past the threads of the bleeder valve, into the caliper, and then out the nipple into the hose.
2) The second is in between the hose and the nipple.



I was able to detect a leak with the valve closed which means #2 exists. When I opened the valve, the leak rate increased which means that #1 exists also.

To solve #1, I think that some thread tape would do the trick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thread_seal_tape
I work at a manufacturing plant and every single air hose fitting has thread tape on it to minimize leak rates. So that it doesn't interfere with the brake fluid, I would only tape the upper half of the bleeder valve as shown below. And I would change the tape every time I bled the system.



To solve #2, use a hose clamp. Lol.

The best solution by far is to just make some friends who can help you do this.

I used OE Acura fluid because my brakes performed extremely well before. The stuff that came out had the same color/opaqueness as the new stuff that went in and it was nearly 1 year overdue (yeah, I know I'm a dumb-ass). That said, how much better can it get? What advantages are there to using Castrol or other types of fluids in a stock brake setup? This is by far the best car I have ever driven so please forgive my ignorance.

94eg!

Speed bleeders come with sealant on the threads to prevent this. Of course with thread tape OR sealant, there is the possibility of bits entering into the caliper from repeated tightening & loosening. You better test whatever you plan on using in some brake fluid cause it may have not-so-good reactions.

Either way vacuum bleeding sucks for the reasons you mentioned. Use the 2 person method and you won't ever have to worry about it.

tihomirbg

iTrader: (1)

I am doing the brake fluid flush by myself- got me the one man bleeding kit from Autozone for 8.49 or so and it works great. I bleed the brakes every year but this year I had to bleed twice. I use the Valvoline dot 3&4 and back in April of this year I did fluid flush- a week ago I had to do brake fluid flush again because it was dark like coke dark. I don't understand why. I just checked the fluid level and the color seems to be changing again- getting a little dark. Can someone explain why the fluid gets dark so quick and how to stop it from getting dark?

dcmodels

The Honda Dot3 in my RDX does not change very much in 1-year. As for your use of Valvoline, are you certain that you are completely flushing *all* of the old fluid? perhaps some old fluid, with moisture, is being left in the lines, which would indeed cause the *new* fluid to oxidize (and darken) more quickly.