FireFly

I called a nearby Acura dealership recently and asked about changing my brake fluid. Basically, they would charge me 90 dollars to empty out my reservoir and refill it with brake fluid and over a 100 to properly bleed it. Regardless, I am going to do it myself. But I wanted to know how effective is it to replace the reservoir fluid compared to bleeding the brakes?

Thanks, guys.

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

while replacing the fluid in the reservoir gets most of the old fluid out, there is still fluid in the brake lines and calipers.

a bleed would cycle out all the rest of the old stuff

SharksBreath

iTrader: (33)

that $10 difference really weighing on you?

glad to hear you're going to tackle it yourself tho! always more rewarding doing maintenance yourself.

good luck!

truonghthe

yes you are suppose to bleed the whole system after replace the fluid that why its call "Flush" not "replace".

AndrewA

iTrader: (3)

If you bleed your brakes to flush out the old fluid, you will also flush out the reservoir fluid. It's a timely process only because the reservoir is so small. I had my wife pumping the brake pedal while I went around to all 4 corners and opened/closed the bleeders screw (with a clear tube attached emptying into a container). You just have to keep an eye on the reservoir to make sure it doesn't get too low on fluid and introduce any air into the lines.

I went through about a quart of fluid total.

MonkeyTrucker

I've been changing my own brakes for over 15 years and have only bled my lines once ... it's a needless headache.

I open up the reservoir, remove fluid with a mini-baster, and save the fluid in a dry container.

After removing the brake pads, I reattach the shoes and either use a clamp or large screwdriver to depress the caliper and push the fluid back into reservoir.

After having all new brakes installed, top the fluid off with the old or new fluid.
Cover reservoir cap, turn key over, and press brake pedal.

Turn off car and top off again and recheck in a few days after seating the new shoes.

I've been doing brakes this way for 15 years ... bleeding brakes is a needless step in changing brakes.

gwiffer

iTrader: (7)

I bleed my brakes once a year in the fall to get the water out of the calipers. Honda recommends flushing the brake fluid once every three years; by bleeding my brakes once a year, I would guess that the fluid is fully replaced every 2-3 times/years. My rear calipers have the integrated e-brake mechanism, so it's very important to prevent rust/corrosion inside the caliper.

Are you a fan of Firefly?

nfnsquared

A interesting POV from a professional (forward to 3:15 to get right to it):

AndrewA

iTrader: (3)

Oh man, I love his hint about submerging the end of the drain tube in fluid in a bottle so it's less messy, and there's no chance of sucking air back in.




Well let's be careful about spreading that kind of information. I wouldn't call it needless where the end result of NOT changing brake fluid could be brake failure.

Since brake fluid is hygroscopic, it will absorb water over time and become more acidic over time. This can and will eventually lead to corrosion of parts that could lead to component failure.

Not to mention that water in brake fluid lowers the boiling point of the fluid. So you'd hate to be going downhill in the mountains and boil your fluid because you never changed it.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

My best investment to date...
with this attachment for brakes/clutch bleed nips

FireFly

I appreciate the input, guys. I was just curious when I called the dealership and was surprised that they wanted to charge that much for basically turkey basting the reservoir and refilling it. It was like $50 more for a proper bleed, but still not worth it when I can do it myself.

MonkeyTrucker

Flushing or bleeding your brake lines IS a needless procedure of changing brakes.

As a procedure ALONE, it can be judged after inspection whether or not it needs it, most often it doesn't.

Cycling in fresh fluid into the reservoir will mitigate any issue you mentioned. It was even the suggested procedure from authorized Acura mechanics. Through driving and subsequent pedal presses, the fluid will mix with the new.

Never have any cars I've owned or know of any family/friends cars that have had failure due to a lacking brake line flush.

Sure if you never check your fluids, completely draining the lines every three years will suffice...but most car owners maintain their vehicles so it doesn't reach that point ....i.e. black fluid.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^most car owner's properly maintain their vehicles? I think that's a bit off...
Most people I talk to didn't even realize you should change your brake fluid, ever. Now, how often not changing it will result or not result in catastrophic failure and whether or not the odds are so small it's not worth doing. I'll agree with that...

but the auto industry makes BILLIONS off of a "better safe than sorry" motto....tires, wipers, pads, rotor thickness, fluid changes...it's all debatable. Other countries where they don't have everything at their finger tips go a long time using bubble gum and floss to fix their cars and they survive just fine.

I hate cars

I would be careful about spreading misinformation about brakes.

You sure as hell have to bleed the brakes. Brake fluid does not flow. It acts as a hydraulic piston when you push the pedal. The only movement is from the pads wearing down and whatever flex you have in the system from the rubber brake lines and caliper flex. There's a small amount of "mixing" but it's very, very small. It's not like a clutch where the slave cylinder actually moves quite a bit.

You have a few feet of lines in the front, over 10 feet to the rear brakes. There is no way in hell the new fluid from the reservoir will make it to the calipers. It's the fluid in the calipers that is going to cause the problems from old age such as boiling prematurely and losing the brakes. Where do you think the water collects. You likely won't experience a failure other than a stuck caliper which technically is a failure but the first time you have to get on the brakes heavily for an extended time such as going downhill, the fluid is going to be more likely to boil and it will let you down. Moisture in the system drastically lowers the boiling point. Why would anyone not swap all of the fluid in such an important system. Replacing fluid in the reservoir does practically nothing in removing moisture from the system.

Let's not forget air in the system which requires bleeding.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^I had an inkling...
glad you cleared that up. I've gotten into my share of pissing contests with people lately and was trying to avoid that.

nfnsquared

I may have to try one of these (or a hybrid of the two) next time:

DIY pressure bleeder 1

DIY pressure bleeder 2

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

^^^pretty cool...but to save a couple of bucks, it's almost not worth reinventing the wheel, no? Look into that mityvac7400 I posted above.

I actually tried the blow through master method once and it turned into a big mess, I like sucking from the brake nipples better...

nfnsquared

Either one can be made for ~$20, which is far less than the $97 you spent at Amazon...

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

I know it, that's why I mentioned that you'd save a couple of bucks. I guess the real question is whether or not it'll work perfectly and as intended on the TL's master.

In addition, I needed something that could be used for the master for the clutch and I don't think there's clearance to drill that cap out. For as versatile as it is, it was worth the $97 I spent on it.

If you end up putting your money where your mouth is, please do report back how well it works out for others!

Chad05TL

I just syphoned out my brake reservoir for the 2nd time and replaced with fresh fluid. (I'm about to go on vacation trip). I used the top of a spray bottle (like 409) and squirted into an oil pan. The first time I did this was prolly a year ago. The fluid takes away contaminants, like engine oil and tranny fluid. If you keep the fluid clean, it helps to avoid the need to bleed.




71k miles

I hate cars

Very, very bad advice Chad. These are brakes were talking about so theories or guesses should be labeled as such. We replace brake fluid to get rid of contaminates. The single most important one is water. Water lowers the boiling point of the fluid and when the fluid boils the pedal goes to the floor and you have no brakes. Boiling fluid does not give warning as pad fade does. One second you have a pedal and the next no brakes.

Water finds it's way to the lowest point which is the calipers which just happen to be the one place you really don't want water. Swapping fluid in the reservoir does not have the slightest effect on water in the system. It has very, very little effect on anything else in the fluid. Brake fluid does not circulate. It does not move more than a mm or so in the lines when you hit the brakes. The fluid acts as a steel rod connecting your foot to the pistons.

I bleed at least every couple years and I only go that long because I live in a dry climate and I have a fluid with a very high wet boiling point. This is one reason wet boiling point is very important, it's representative of the real world. As soon as you break the seal on the bottle the boiling point begins declining.

The other thing a drain and fill does not do is get air out of the system.

I would not brag about not changing the fluid in 71k miles on your 6-7yr old car. The brakes will feel perfectly normal with lots of water in the system and then they one day boil at normal operating temperatures and you have no brakes. Every day the boiling point if the fluid and operating temperature of the fluid get closer to one another. We won't even get into the corrosion and wear. Notice all of the seized rear calipers around here and the water people find when they take them apart. You claim to be an engineer, you can afford to pay someone to bleed the brakes. You're already wasting money on fluid. What are you trying to prove? I suggest seeing how long you can go on the engine oil or trans fluid over the brake fluid.

Chad05TL

are you drunk IHC? haha

I hate cars

Says the guy claiming you never need to bleed the brakes yet changes the ATF more often than called for.

Chad05TL

than called for? thats not true. We've already determined on another thread like a few years ago, that if you do the 3x3 tranny fluid swap (3 quarts, 3 times) then you have to do that like 6 or 7 or 8 times to get close to 95% all fresh fluid. Because you mix it every time. So, if I do it only 4 times, then I might be half way there.. So, I don't know what you are talking about.

I hate cars

Ok, so you waited for the "3" to appear on the MID? The severe service schedule is a drain and fill at 60,000 miles, did you wait until at least 60k before changing the fluid? Chances are at your mileage you have never seen a number 3 pop up yet you have changed the fluid several times.

The transmission doesn't matter. You're recommending things that are not safe.

Chad05TL

Some say to drain and fill at 30k and 60k. Another person says he likes to do it at 15k, then 30k, then at 60k.
The more often you do it, the cleaner it is. So it can't hurt. And transmissions are costly and pretty important so I want it as clean as possible.

As far as brakes, I have no problem with my brakes and they feel good, and what I am doing is preventative. But looking at the situation closer, the recommended fluid swap is every 3 years for brakes but many people go much longer than even 60k without any issues. And the key point here is that there are many ways to do a fluid swap. It doesn't say in the manual you have to bleed the brakes, but it does tell you how to do it if you want to do it that way. I have already done 1 fluid swap in the reservoir a few years ago. I had a picture of the before and after pictures at that time. It wasn't that great of a difference but there was some. The fluid was not pitch black like some have indicated theirs were. So I suspect mine had been changed once already. I got this car at 32k miles. So, anyway, this time when I changed the fluid again, there was even less difference than the last time I did it. So in other words, it didn't really need to have new fluid because it was already almost as clean as the new stuff I was adding, this was a few days ago. So, no, I'm going to forego the bleeding process because I can see the fluid is getting around the system because it has become cleaner (even though slightly) the past 2 times I have done it. So, I can see the progress and the rate of how fast it gets dirty. So, I think I can go up to 100k the way it looks now.

So if you want to put out the extra effort then I say go for it. It can't hurt to bleed them. But if I feel no problems with my pedal and I see no fluid leaks and no wetness around the calipers, then I ain't screwing with it. Just Swap the fluid the EASY Way!! Its only like $5 for 2 reservoir swaps. So, I ain't wasting any money as you said and my brakes are fine. It's fast, its easy, and it keeps the fluid clean. Good enough! It took me 10 minutes.

Chad05TL

and by the way, transmissions and brakes are both important, but brakes will give you a sign for a long time that they are not happy. Like soft pedal.. or noise.. All that can be fixed fairly inexpensive compared to a transmission. But a transmission will wear and wear and wear and give you no sign until one day, it won't go!.. And it will cost a few thousand. THAT IS WHY I give special attention to transmissions.


Also, brake fluid is not cooked like Transmission fluid. Brakes are Hydraulic system. Not necessarily for friction lubrication, like a tranny or engine.

Chad05TL

oh, the #3 did not pop up. No warnings.

I hate cars

This is the problem, you don't understand the braking system and you make recommendations based on not understanding it that can lead to big trouble.

Water is the number one enemy here. Doing a drain and fill does nothing to get rid of water in the system. Water is heavier than brake fluid. It goes to the lowest point which is the calipers. You can drain and fill the reservoir every day and it will make no difference in the amount of water in the fluid.

There is no warning before the fluid boils and they go out completely. No soft pedal. No noise.

Water drastically lowers the boiling point if the fluid.

Brake fluid is "cooked" as you say. The brake fluid can get significantly hotter than engine oil or transmission fluid. It's a hydraulic system, yes, but the fluid has to endure lots of heat and the fluid does lube the master and slaves.

You can't tell the condition of the fluid by looking at the reservoir. You can't see how much water is in the fluid. You can't see what the fluid looks like in the calipers where it counts.

A transmission gives lots of clues to its condition. You may not be trained to recognize them but they're there and they're obvious. A transmission is an elaborate hydraulic circuit with a torque converter creating the heat. A brake system is a simple hydraulic circuit and heat is created by transferring rotor and pad heat through the pistons and into the fluid. The main difference is the trans has friction materials and a pump which is why they have filters but they run at similar temps with the brake temp greatly exceeding transmission temp when run hard.

The point which you completely missed is if the trans fails your car won't move. If the brakes fail it can be bad. The transmission can be cheap in comparison. I'll answer it for you since you don't know the maintenance schedule. Yes, you swapped the trans fluid out several times before it was scheduled to be done but you have not swapped the brake fluid which is supposed to be done already. You're putting money above safety.

How does your way address the water issue and the subsequent lower boiling point that can lead to total brake failure with no warning?

dcmodels

One point I have not seen mentioned directly is that corrosion can require replacement of the ABS controller/ pump unit, or whatever its actually called. Not sure what it would cost on a TL (or my RDX) but on some Mercedes/ BMWs can cost over $2K to replace.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

First, in normal driving, even if condensation is in the system, most will never notice any failure of the brake system until the caliper(s) piston(s) becomes sticky or freezes solid because of the condensation that will collect in the lowest part of the caliper, glad IHC remembered. I'm not a big fan of bleeding the brakes as I’ve never done the TL, or any other vehicle I’ve owned, and the 24 year old RX7 only had the system bled when I rebuilt the calipers at different times, first fronts, then rears, and at this time the rears need rebuilding again as the RR is sticking.

Chances are that if I bled the system on a regular basis, I wouldn't need to spend time removing the 4 pot front, single rear w/ebrake, clean bores and pistons, replace parts, assembly, and bleed.

Over the years, other cars in the household with many, many miles and far from new, never had a sticking caliper and never bled any, but, if a caliper needed repair, I'd rebuild and fix cheaply, but still time consuming, so my advice is that if one has the time, it would be best to do the maintenance on a regular basis. Even on all the brake jobs I've done, there have been only a few that needed caliper service.

Years ago would always put the bleeder hose in a container filled with old fluid and do the job myself, then graduated to a bleeder powered by the air compressor, but any process that extracts or pulls the fluid out can always lead to air being pulled in around the bleeder threads, so some will place grease around the bleeder at the caliper to use as a preventative. One can always do gravity bleeding, open bleeder and let the fluid drip, but this can only be done as maintenance, but not viable when air in system, e.g. after system repair. To me, the best of all is a pressure bleeder, but then you’ll need various reservoir adapters to satisfy differently configured reservoirs.

Chad05TL

I bet you a dollar, by the time I have a mechanical failure, so will you all.

I ain't bleeding anything unless there is a problem.


If you can drain and fill a transmission and leave the old stuff in there, then you can do it with the reservoir on brake hydraulics.



.

Chad05TL

everything is expensive at the dealer. especially mercedes or bmw

Chad05TL

I think what people have to understand is that you are constantly working on your car and never satisfied. So with that in mind, you are constantly under the hood. You need to just back away from the car and relax.

I don't have any water in my brake lines. My brakes feel perfect. And I aint laying on my back just to find out if I have water in my lines. I BET if you removed the back bumper you might find a little bit of dirt. Doesn't mean the car is going to fall apart and it wont cause the car to have an early death. Likewise, changing only the reservoir wont cause any problem as opposed to bleeding it.

My fluid is healthy, because I just swapped out the reservoir for the 2nd time.

If my brake fluid was cooked then it would be darkened.. But its not. So I am good with it.

Water is not an issue. "Voodoo" maybe.

You are way over the top anal about your car and you take a rare case , a miniscual topic, and bring it to the forefront because you have no rationale about what is worth it. The car is going to die sometime. I don't want to keep a car forever because too many other components will die and make it not worth keeping. But I am totally satisfied with swapping the reservoir fluid my way.

Bleeding is not required but if you want to go the extra mile, then ok, bleed away.

scan to minute 3:21

Chad05TL

Notice I am not trying to get air out .. Only REPLACE FLUID.

pohljm

There is absolutely water in your brake fluid! There is no stopping it from happening. It is the nature of the fluid to absorb water. If your foolish enough to not believe that then we are just wasting our time with you. I cannot for the life of me understand your aversion to bleeding? Its a very simple and necessary procedure for proper maintenance.

1KLRTOY

Absolutely true, moisture goes through the rubber brake lines and moisture is the worst enemy of brake / clutch systems.Flushing the system is the most important thing you can do to your system, if you don't think so check your system for percent of moisture, I think you'll be surprised at what you find. and by the way changing the fluid in the reservoir is a waste of time.

Chad05TL

drain and fill reservoir. will circulate. no sweat. done.

Turbonut

iTrader: (1)

Actually, with your statements a reply probably isn't worth the effort, but thought I might try.

It won't circulate, period. Do you believe that there's a loop for the fluid to return to the reservoir, similar to the rest of the fluid in the car? Condensation forms in all brake systems and will remain the lower part of the caliper, and if it becomes excess, the piston(s) will become sticky, period. Brake degradation won't occur when condensation is present and for you to state there is none in your system; it's like walking the plank.

Best thing people can do if they don't want to bleed the system, open the bleeder when changing pads, push in the piston(s) and fluid will be pushed out the bleeder, close bleeder, this will help.

I hate cars

I haven't done anything to the TL in years other than the audio. This is my daily driver, I do basic maintenance and that's it. I have a car that I'm constantly working on and the TL is not it. I did some light upgrades, mostly because I used to take it to Willow, upgrades that it needed but my combo hasn't been changed since I swapped out the crappy Rotora BBK for the Stoptech BBK and honestly that was out of necessity since there were no rotors available for that kit. On the other hand we have you with the ricer mods.
How do you know you don't have water??? I don't care how your brakes feel, water does not make them feel any different You could fill the entire system up with water and it would feel the same. I've run an automatic transmission on water for nearly 30 miles, because I got away with it, should I recommend to everyone to run their autos on water to save money?

And again, the fluid boils with no warning. Do you understand? Do you know the difference in losing the brakes from pad fade which gives warning and boiling fluid which is near instant and the pedal goes to the floor as if it's not connected to anything.

The only thing positive here is if you're this cheap with the flush, you likely have extremely cheap pads which hopefully fade before the fluid boils.

Why would you lie on your back to bleed the brakes lol. You show over and over that you have zero experience with this yet you continue arguing as if you have experience.

Are you really comparing some dirt on the bumper to contamination in the hydraulic system? You don't see the difference in brake fluid and a bumper?
And how does that fluid mix with the fluid in the calipers, especially the rear calipers? I'm sure your reservoir is clean but that's irrelevant. Again, no pump, no fluid movement, how again is the fluid from the reservoir getting to the calipers and how is fluid from the calipers getting into the reservoir? I've had the reservoir look ok and started bleeding and had some nasty stuff come out. Is water and other contaminates going to defy gravity and move up the brake line, through the ABS actuator and into the reservoir or is it going to obey the laws of physics and settle out in the lowest point of the brake system?
Wait, so you base everything on the assumption that the fluid changes color when it gets heated? A fluid does not have to darken to indicate it's been hot. Are you seriously going to argue that brake fluid does not get hot in use???? I never thought I would have this argument. Why does brake fluid have a wet and a dry boiling point as one of their main specs? Do you know what determines the difference in a DOT 3 and DOT 4 fluid? The fluid's resistance to boiling is what the entire rating system centers around and you're going to deny heat is an issue? And this is ignoring the fact that you're looking only at the fluid that's in the reservoir which is the cleanest fluid in the system and not the rest of the system.

I've done tons of data gathering before and after these BBKs and I can tell you with stock brakes my normal summer rotor temps were just over 400F. The backside of the caliper (and the brake fluid inside) ran 200F or more. Do you know water's boiling point? With spirited driving, far from track conditions but driving a little harder than normal my rotor temps saw 700F easily and the caliper 300-350F. Now we're getting close to a cheap fluid's dry boiling point and that's not pushing them that hard. I've pushed them far past that point, one was an emergency situation where I arrived on scene an was using the ebrake to park the car because I boiled the fluid on the last stop. I also tried the stock brakes with new fluid at the track and had the same result.

Let's not forget that the stock rear brakes on this car run as hot as the fronts in normal braking, sometimes hotter.

If you're so sure of yourself, grab on to the rotor after even a short drive. Or even the caliper, take it out, go for a spin, and when you're done, grab the caliper. The average caliper temperature is close to the brake fluid temperature. Post your results.

I hate Google educations, you may want to get out and start searching
And again, you're going against facts and everyone who knows anything about cars. Water is the number one issue, get out from under your rock sometime. What color is the sky Chad, just checking.

You're satisfied out of ignorance. If you're not anal, stop changing your ATF so often and follow the factory service schedule.
Says who, you? Bleeding is not going the extra mile. Bleeding is necessary at basic intervals. Even Acura who is known to stretch intervals as long as possible says to replace brake fluid every 3 years. It does not say replace brake fluid in the reservoir every 3 years. You change your ATF more often than recommended because you're worried about cost yet you do not swap the brake fluid when recommended? That's smart.
I don't care what Eric the car guy said. Just because other people do it doesn't mean it's right. If I paid a dealer to flush my brake system and they swapped just the fluid in the reservoir out I would get my money back.

You need to understand the difference in fact and a poorly formed opinion before you make dangerous recommendations on brakes. Most people on here are enthusiasts and will push the brakes at some point.