RLX-Sport Hybrid

So yesterday at a local car show I noticed an NSX arrive so I went over to check it out. I discovered that one of the people in the car was a national Acura corporate person to remain nameless unless he gives me permission to share. I will be contacting him asap to offer the ideas and recommendations we have been talking about on this board in hopes of improving the brand and its product content. I offered constructive criticism as well as positive comments where it was appropriate. He was very receptive and asked for more. So as we were talking I asked about what the future might be for the RLX. I asked about the beautiful red concept car they displayed at car shows recently. He did not exactly confirm this formally but with a wink and a nod about it he basically confirmed that in the very near future almost exactly as what we were drooling over is very likely, but with a larger back seat area so that section would be modified to accommodate it! It will be in V6 hybrid form from the start. There would be a Type S high performance version with killer wheels, exposed exhaust (in all refreshed or relaunched models of Acuras moving forward), and potentially a more vocal exhaust note that would be controllable from the driver, similar to the NSX quiet mode, sport and track modes. Power would be slotted much above the current RLX Sport Hybrid, but below the current NSX, which he said unequivocally that all sport hybrid power ratings are conservative, especially the torque ratings. We have all suspected that, but he confirmed it. No numbers were provided in the conversation. I told him that I tried to dyno my car early on and that it did not like that one bit (he laughed as if he knew that it would not take well to dynos), but what I did capture from a data perspective was very accurate. Remember that was about 400 ft/lbs torque from idle at the wheels, and increasing from there peaking at 4,000 rpm. He said that the NSX is wholly underrated from the reviewers to the power ratings. After driving it, I believe it!

Now on to the NSX! I tried the various drive modes, enjoyed the exhaust, intake and turbo blow off valve sounds. The transmission was other worldly. Just bang the right paddle to upshift and it hit hard, lightening quick, and the thrust/sound was like that of a high performance motor cycle going up through its gears on hard acceleration. 1st gear was just silly fast, 2nd was unadulterated thrust that never gets old, and then 3rd gear was just as intoxicating! Let’s just say that if had been pulled over, it would have been a very bad day for me. On the highway, stepping down from 9th to 3rd and then hammering the gas, was something that will not be forgotten for a very long time. 80, 90, 100…. with a gear shift, and smiles was all I could say. WOW! Seats were firm but very comfortable. Visibility is good but my sight lines were such that the sides of the windshield were thicker than I would have preferred. Rear visibility is limited, but acceptable, side view mirrors are good and the front view over the wheel arches is fantastic! It is very low to the ground for sure. The steering is exceptionally tight and very responsive. Brakes? Very firm, endless braking power with the ceramic disks. Hard bite like the RLX-Sport Hybrid, but much deeper braking forces available. Handling I never really pushed, but I did take a ramp that I have gone about 65mph into in the RLX-Sport Hybrid and that was close to the limit in it, and the NSX was easily able to throttle through it at almost 80mph while powering hard into the next gear. Ridiculous!

Complaints about the car? WTF is with the key hole in the driver door? Doesn’t it come with two fobs? Why not hide that? Exhaust note is not loud enough, snarky enough, or exotic sounding. Also the brand has done nothing to make their target audience feel special. I have two of their “flagship” models and have not felt the love from Acura corporate in any way as if I bought a base Honda Civic. He was visibly disturbed to hear that and immediately apologized on behalf of his company. I told him that if someone buys a BMW 7 series, Audi A8 or a MB 550, that customer gets “special” treatment in the buying experience. Acura has done none of that. Big problem. Very few people are going to head into a dealership, see the NSX and say here is my $200k and take delivery like they are picking up a new Honda Accord. There should be pomp and circumstance in the buying experience. Anything that would make that buyer feel like they just did something very special. I offered some ideas on this last point and at another time after speaking with him more, if I am told it is ok to share, I will then. But this is a big issue for the brand, especially at this price point. When I told him that I have purchased Acura models since they arrived in the US and most of my family has been doing the same, that accounts for a lot of Acura product to be purchased (probably more than 20 cars over the years). He said that Acura has to listen to their customers more than they have thus far. I told him that we will tell him what will sell because we will say what features we would want that would attract us to buy their product, then we would talk/promote it and that is how reputations can be built or re-built as a following. He agreed. Good sign.

Oh and he mentioned that there will be a TLX Type S that “may” have either a turbo option (my guess is an iteration of the I4 emanating from the new Civic Si engine, but adding a turbo) or a hybrid option like that from the RLX or MDX (likely the MDX). And I harped about the distribution of the new MDX Sport Hybrid dampers across the branding line as one of the best things Acura could do to satisfy more customers with suspension complaints. He agreed with me and non-verbally signaled that those will be used elsewhere in the product line (my interpretation).

More to follow as I get more feedback from him or the development/distribution team. Very exciting I say.

wilspainar

A TLX Type S with the CTR power train would be awesome. Good to hear they are going to change things around.

alpha0

So does this eliminate any chance of V6 Turbo cars without the weight of hybrids?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I have no idea about V6 turbo options. I can only speak to what I shared. Understand this was a conversation not a deposition or formal corporate declaration of their plans.

neuronbob

Now go get one! You'll have hit the trifecta of Sport Hybrid ownership then, LOL! My NSX test drive is also in the works.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

From your mouth to god's ears. If only...

I am going to get another shot at driving it sometime soon so that will be lots of fun!

According to him he is not aware of anyone owning two in once house hold, so he said I am the first he has met. He joked that I should have all three just because. Funny guy.

moose66

I'm looking to join the two in a household ranks as soon as I can unload my RX450h! In due time! Would love to add the NSX for the trifecta! Dream on . . . . . . .

hondamore

RLX-Sport Hybrid, if you get a chance to talk to your Acura Corporate contact again, could you ask him about the rumored sedan placed above the RLX in the Acura lineup. The way the rumor goes is that the RLX will morph into the red design study which has been referred to in your conversation with the Acura Corporate contact AND a larger, more upscale sedan will arrive soon after. The RLX will keep an updated version of the current hybrid drivetrain while the larger upscale sedan will feature an AWD EV (with torque vectoring on BOTH axles) drivetrain with fuel cells to replenish the batteries and some really kick a$$ power numbers. The thought is that they may be able to shave the price of the RLX a bit, which combined with the newer sexier look should get it into the 10000+ units per year sales figures. The new halo sedan/flagship sedan would go to crazy price territory but with the idea that they would only sell a few hundred of them a year and demo their new performance-oriented EV technology to the world and provide all the Honda executives with a true status sedan to drive to work (or be driven).

I doubt your contact would give a direct answer to a question about future products, but I'd love to know if you could get a non-verbal read on his reaction to the question.

Thanks for the great info in your original post.

alpha0

As product planner, i would not put all eggs again in hybrid basket I understand final product is good, but market has not responded accordingly. They themselves have learnt that for NSX and may come out with a version without hybrid. They just need to look at Genesis G80 sales numbers and ask those potential buyers what product would bring them to Acura camp?

For TLX Type S, there is no other option but a turbo or hybrid as NA V6 can not provide higher torque at low/mid rpms.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Living the dream as they say.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

I'll ask but I seriously doubt that info will be shared. I am awaiting his response for our next conversation and hopeful to schedule the next test drive!

RLX-Sport Hybrid

You got that right! How cool would a twin turbo option be as a stand alone on either the TLX of RLX with the traditional SHAWD! That would be a tough call to decide between that and a Sport Hybrid. I guess we would have to buy both and alternate usage each day.

alpha0

If they have resources to develop only one system, i would put money on 6cyl turbo with mechanical shawd and rear wheel bias. As per sales numbers, that is what sells.

kurtatx

Agreed. Everything in the market seems to be a turbo'd/supercharged smaller engine. 3.0T over V8, 2.0T over V6

hondamore

Seems like a 180 degree change in market...Not long ago, Acura was being slammed for not producing a V8, now they look like the smart ones not spending billions on a soon to be obsolete engine.

JonFo

Thanks for all the info, and this tidbit really has me drooling, as that shape, even slightly stretched for a larger cabin, would be perfect with a hybrid drivetrain. And one that was even more powerful than the current RLX-SH is music to my ears. I hope they go hybrid only, as Acura should have learned the lesson from the botched RLX launch. Acura has a unique competitive advantage in the now well-sorted SH drivetrain, they need to maximize their return on all that R&D and make it a marquee feature of the new vehicle, not just an optional model. A Type S or an A-Spec package would also be welcome, and one I'd sign up for.

If you get another crack at the NSX, I hope it is on a closed course, because that's where you can really get a taste for what that car can do in the handling department, it is frickin' amazing!

wilspainar

The current Sport Hybrid system in a TLX A-spec would be awesome and I would totally buy one.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Another member and I are crafting an email to send to my contact that will summarize all of what we have been saying about the good, the bad, and the areas of realistic improvement that can be addressed in hopes of creating meaningful change for the brand that will attract more customers and keep existing ones engaged to buy more of their product. We are enthusiasts and knowledgeable consumers and as a focus group of sorts we have the potential power to help guide the future products others will buy within the brand. So embracing this opportunity with all of our collective perspectives and getting these ideas in front of the people who will ultimately design the future products we buy, is a chance I don't want us to miss. So If you have any ideas beyond what has been shared on the following thread: https://acurazine.com/forums/third-g...xt-rlx-961008/ please write them here and I will do what I can to incorporate them in the email. I hope to complete this by Friday evening this week.

alpha0

As per MDX specs, sport hybrid adds about 450 lbs. For TLX, Aspec with same sport hybrid will weigh about 4130 lbs (3680 of TLX V6 aspec + 450). That is heavy for this class.

George Knighton

Does it matter how heavy you are if you get 430 HP and 32 mpg?

:-)

George Knighton

If they had been able to produce the number of cars that the market might support, they'd have sold more cars.

I don't believe that the market is the problem.

The problem was Honda's inability to build the cars (Saiyama is not devoted to the Legend, but they are all built there), and an inability at the time the car went to product to be able to secure enough high quality batteries to be able to execute the build.

Judging from how the reviewers reacted to the drivetrain, they could have sold quite a few more if they had been able to produce them. And if they had been able to produce them, they could have devoted some money to advertising them.

There's a lot wrong with the 5G Legend but the drivetrain sure as hell is not wrong. :-)

Another thing: If they had known that the dollar/yen ratio would hold so steadily, they could also have easily marketed the car at a completely different (much lower) price point, if only they had been able to build enough of them.

I think that any future iteration of the Legend should absolutely at least be a Sport Hybrid, if not all electric. I'm sure the Legend is likely to be one of Honda's first all electrics. Perhaps the 7G Legend.

George Knighton

I don't know what people mean when they talk about a "bigger" RLX, but I believe there is certainly room for a good competitor to the Lexus LS460.

When you get up around 100,000 dollars, then the fully equipped LS460 stands out as the superior choice for any number of reasons, even though its V8 drivetrain sends shudders down the spines of America's environmentalists.

I've said this before, but if you're looking at Bentley, you might as well save yourself 100 grand and just get a fully optioned LS460 because it's really that good, and you're only going to get slight, incremental improvements for the extra hundred grand you spend on the Bentley.

IMHO, of course, and what the hell do I know. But I've had experience in both labels, and that's what I think.

Now....

If we're saying that Honda is looking at a real competitor to the LS460 insofar as technology and quality of workmanship, and the same kind of attention to detail, plus an updated Sport Hybrid drivetrain, then it's very possible they will be able to give the LS460 a run for the money.

There is a hybrid LS460, but it's not in any way the kind of car that we would buy.

Limelight

I certainly hope Acura can get there one day to compete with Lexus (and the NSX will help the perception of luxury and prestige brand awareness). The reality to me anyway is Acura creating a car to compete with the Lexus LS460 is putting the cart before the horse. People at that price point don't want an Acura - at least not in 2017.

Case in point - I was at my dealer yesterday getting new rubber on my SH and they had a red NSX with seacoast leather and upgraded chrome wheels - it was stunning. But all three of my boys said that despite it being gorgeous, at $243,000 CDN, they'd much rather a Lambo.

Limelight

To further elaborate, my 15 year old son said WTH is with the key hole on the driver side door?? He said Ferrari or Lamborghini would never dream of having an exposed key hole lost in the middle of the door like that.

The devil is in the details - the top tier brands get both the big and little things right. Acura is on the right path, but clearly they are not there yet. And a 15 year old boy can see that - so a successful individual with $250K to burn can clearly see that too.

It's still a gorgeous car and it's selling - don't get me wrong. But it will be a long road for the brand to get back to where Acura was when the Legend first took the automotive world by storm.

nist7

I truly am delighted to see that you guys are actually trying to do something to help Acura move in the direction that we enthusiasts want it. Many other people simply complain and bash how terrible Acura is.

With that said, I hope there are some results. But the cynical part of me is not as optimistic. Not to judge ANYONE on here....(I would be the last person to try to do that).....but to me...unsolicited advice from a few "internet people" may or may not play well with Acura corporate. Again it is obvious that regulars in this section of Acurazine are those who are able to afford cars like the 3rd gen RLX and I bet a few here can probably swing their finances to own a 2nd gen NSX in their driveway if they wanted to (and we have at least 1 confirmed Aziner who is driving a 2nd gen NSX already). So again no insult here at all but just trying to temper my own expectations so that we may not be too disappointed with Acura in the years to come.

Please update with results of the contact and of course the real results will be shown in their products in the years to come.

I'm glad you at least spoke to someone representing in real life at an event. I know that Corvette Forum has active Corvette team presence there and they do engage with the Corvette owners, though that may be because the CF is a massive part of the Corvette-owning community and is a gold standard for information, resources, and discussion.


I personally agree with you in this logic.

But to me...someone who can easily afford a Bentley is likely not buying purely based on the value proposition of features/comforts per dollar. The additional 100k, while to many of us is a HUGE sum of money (at least to me!), I reckon to the truly wealthy it's literally pocket change to them (proportionally speaking). They may not want to look like a plebian with a mere Lexus in their driveway when their fellow neighbors fill up the country club parking lots with Rolls/Bentleys/etc.

But with you saying you've actually experienced both I will defer to you for more experienced opinion.

At times I feel that we the public cry out for certain "obvious" flaws in products (cars or otherwise) and in turn propose solutions that can easily make things better. Now again to preface this I'm not saying the public are total idiots and we should leave everything up to the "pros" that obviously has not panned out in all facets of life and never will be.

But with that said, I am 100% certain that when Honda was designing and engineering this car, they obviously considered every part of the car and meetings were had and focus groups done and whatnot....and so the decision to leave a traditional standard door keyhole is a glaring one that the lay public can easily see and compare to others such as the cars you mentioned.

I too actually agree that the ugly keyhole is not standard these days in cars costing in the 200k range when usually optioned (even though the NSX "only" starts at 156k) looking at the R8 et. al.

Though I think the reason why it's still like that is the design of the body/door, and the other is likely the long-time running conservatism of Honda. These traditional mechanisms may be easier to live with and/or repair....and it's in line with their philosophy of making the car more livable on a daily basis with the Quiet Mode.

In the end I think Acura/Honda can design cars probably just as outlandish as Ferrari or Lamborghini as I'm sure those engineers/designers can dream up wild/cool features. But the philosophy of Honda probably tempers that down and restricts it.

I think people who have 200k to spend on a car are likely proportioned into true enthusiasts vs "Lambo/Ferrari" (or status symbol) worshippers. If you are only looking to keep up with your millionaire neighbor and you've made it, you're gonna want the prancing horse or the bull badge. Nothing that Honda puts out can beat the history/prestige/luxury-status of a Ferrari/Lambo in the driveway.

Those who are more into just the cars likely will be a bit more comparative in their shopping. I see alot of online commentors easily say they would rather buy a R8 V10+/570S/Turbo S/etc. citing all the usual reasons...and I can see their point. But I wonder if they are being a bit presumptive in these segment of consumers. Without actual test drive in a NSX or consider say see the value in Quiet Mode.

One reason I suspect most of the public is not enthralled with a more conservative supercar like the NSX is that most of the public cannot afford to own any of these supercars in their lifetime. And so when we want to imagine what we would buy if we came into boatloads of money...we naturally want something really crazy and awesome and over the top to offset our boring daily drivers and so hence I think the huge admiration for Ferrari/Lamborghini.

Just my to spur some discussion and inject some contrarian opinion. As I think we're all tired of the same tunes that we at this forum have been singing for long time now.

alpha0

Knowing Acura, they will just put 321hp system of MDX sport hybrid and call it a day!

George Knighton

And that's before you even get into reliability questions.

I was serious when I said that the Bentley State Limousine's running gear had been completely replaced because of reliability issues.

JonFo

The 2018 RLX MMC sure looks great, definitely moving in the right direction, here is a quick screen grab from the dealer intro video:

2018 RLX-SH

miner

They need to change more than the beak

justnspace

iTrader: (1)

no one wants that thing.

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Here is what I sent to the corporate contact:

There is so much to say on the topic. There are a lot of awesome things about the vehicle, however there are many things that I wish were part of the next generation of the vehicle.
Here is the wish list: ·

A vastly improved and special buying experience where the sales staff all the way up to the top know this car inside and out. Also the customer wants to feel special. I have purchased Acuras since 1989 and never once have I felt special in any way. Real miss there as a company.·

After the sale, hold track days and advance driving schools for those that want it (more touches with your customers)·

Hold corporate sponsored cars and coffee like meet-ups of other Acura owners in the area, include the display of new Acura product and have technical consultants on hand to help current owners with questions they have·

A-Spec variant with tuned suspension for those who want performance, and maybe a more aggressive look - Pie in the sky wish: NSX drivetrain with TTV6 and SH system...(500 hybrid hp/500 ft/lbs hybrid combined torque) ·

Rear seat USB ports·

Rear seat ventilated seats (not just heated)·

Precision cockpit with single screen like NSX, Corvette or LFA ·

Bigger and more HUD information on the glass. Have the Navi projected on the screen in the center also up on the glass windshield.·

Flexible ambient lighting inside the car like the s-class MB·

Controllable exhaust sound from the driver position·

Better wheel options·

Better quality wood-look (ala Volvo V60/90), for a more traditional luxury car look.· I want the interior of the car to scream, like an E or S class Mercedes, "I am special". No Acura offers that feel today, not even the new NSX.·

Get rid of the plastic dashboard and only have leather. ·

Physical buttons to control A/C not a touchscreen to change fan speed. ·

Massaging seats and active bolsters that reduce body roll like in the s-class ·

Rear entertainment screen/s as an option ·

Trunk power closing and opening with a kick under ·

Bigger battery for more electric range to get us carpool access ·

As on-coming traffic approaches have automatic adaptive light control to dim left side long-distance lighting while continuing to project right side long-distance lighting. I live in deer country and returning from airport at 3 AM this morning was working the lighting so as to keep those grazing deer on the right-of-way in perspective while not blinding my fellow on-coming driver. It occurred to me this is an easily accomplished task with Acura's Jewel front lights with appropriate sensor and control software. ·

Increase the hybrid battery capacity by slinging a flat pack under the floorboards and also add about 15 to 30% more electric motor power so the car can operate in the electric power mode a higher percentage in city driving. ·

Add high tech insulation in the roof and reflective glass so as to keep interior temperatures cooler when car sits in a sunny location.·

Put a sport button within easy finger reach on the steering wheel for fast triggering of maximum power without taking the driver's eyes off the road ahead·

Add the brown or umber interior as an option for any outside color·

Put some classically beautiful touches in the exterior/interior combinations.·

More modes on the dynamics control, including a sports+ that is very close to 'track' and make 255/40/19 tire size standard, or better yet 275/40/19 for a more muscular look·

More attention to suspension noise isolation·

Magnetorheological shocks to support more dynamics modes·

Supercapacitor to absorb regen amperage that exceeds battery storage rate, and to power 'push-to-pass' short-term boosts·

Smarter lights, like steering following lighting, modulating jewel-eye array and using R/L fog lights to enhance slow-speed curve lighting. And not just lateral adjustments, but up/down as well. Illuminating crests or valleys requires counter-directional adjustments. I really benefit from this on my curvy mountain roads.·

Also high-beam dimming scheme of dropping one side or at least dimming/re-aiming the lights tracking approaching vehicle vectors·

The rear sunshade automatically go down when the car is in reverse, and return to the up position when the car returns to the drive gear

alpha0

@RLX-Sport Hybrid - Did you get any more information about future products?

RLX-Sport Hybrid

Unfortunately not.

2012wagon

My local salesman (we bought 2 cars from him, and its a small family owned dealer), today in writing confirmed TLX Type S is on its way. I know salesman lie, but after seeing your thread and hearing from him I believe it and am excited.