Intel vs. AMD?
02-18-2004, 08:26 AM
#41
Mmmmm...sausage...
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I have been running an AMD Athlon Thunderbird 1200mhz in my home computer for about 2 years now. I edit lots of large audio and video files. I've never had a problem with it. I screams circles around my Intel PIII here at work.
02-18-2004, 11:30 AM
#42
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Originally posted by CLovis
when did I ever say I installed the heatsink myself? i didn't. I had a computer shop do it. I had them then build my Intel system, and have had no problems since.
amd sucks, life goes on
when did I ever say I installed the heatsink myself? i didn't. I had a computer shop do it. I had them then build my Intel system, and have had no problems since.
amd sucks, life goes on
02-18-2004, 11:53 AM
#43
4dr & I like it that way
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Originally posted by cusdaddy
See my quote earlier in this thread. There was a reason why the Prescott was delayed so long. It has a hidden (turned off) 64-bit instruction set that is compatible with AMD's 64-bit implementation in the Athlon64.
People are bashing the Prescott, but once they turn on those 64-bit instructions and the clock speeds start to ramp up, it will be a tough chip to beat
See my quote earlier in this thread. There was a reason why the Prescott was delayed so long. It has a hidden (turned off) 64-bit instruction set that is compatible with AMD's 64-bit implementation in the Athlon64.
People are bashing the Prescott, but once they turn on those 64-bit instructions and the clock speeds start to ramp up, it will be a tough chip to beat
again id stress for anyone buying a new PC soon to wait for socket 939 from AMD (cheaper mobos, even better memory performance) or LGA 775 from Intel (should be a better platform for prescott) as well as PCI-express. both AGP and PCI will be made obsolete by PCI-express. both new platforms should be out in a month or two.
02-18-2004, 12:42 PM
#44
Senior Moderator
this was a good read:
http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20030923/index.html
The Intel v. AMD Performance War: You Lose
Introduction
Only a few hours remain before the official launch of the Athlon 64. A few hours more and the Web will light up with benchmarks--at least in enthusiast circles.
A week ago, this looked like an AMD parade, fireworks display and gala banquet rolled into one. Then, in burst of schadenfreud, Intel dropped a bunch of P4 EEs on the world's tech press at IDF, and sent them all off with CPUs, in time for today's launch.
Maybe it is the pent-up need for the "Next Big Thing," and maybe it is demand for the next leap in performance, but very few commentators, observers, enthusiasts, interested parties or geeks seem willing to question the obvious amidst all the brouhaha.
Do we really believe that the 64-bit revolution is upon us?
Do we really think that we'd like to fork out half a grand, or more, on a desktop processor?
Just build the next-best thing and the buyers will come running? Surely, the last couple of years should have taught the computer industry that there's more to it than that.
Unfortunately, there isn't much room for depth right now. It's a bit of a watershed event in the CPU business, and the pressure is on AMD to succeed. Not just succeed, but to turn Internet chatter and enthusiasm into bottom line dollars.
Intel: Losing the PR Battle
However, it the middle of all this, I have to point out the failure of Intel to provide any significant opposition to AMD. I mean, it's not like what AMD has been doing has been much of a secret. Maybe the overwhelming public nature of AMD's behind-the-scenes maneuvers to get the press ready for the Athlon 64 launch helped Intel plan for, create and execute the Pentium 4 EE.
The P4 EE was a very clever move, a sign that Intel could do guerilla marketing, if it had to. That's a big deal: Intel is getting down and dirty. In the last week, Intel has successfully managed to move the spotlight away from the Athlon 64 and to get people speculating about the P4 EE.
Yet, for all the cleverness, Intel showed itself to be cynical and full of hubris, too. The P4 EE was kind of thrown into the arena, an act of contempt against AMD. There wasn't much in the way of argument or positioning. A simple chip for gamers, designed to do just enough to wipe out any performance advantage AMD might have expected in the 32-bit arena. A manufacturing sleight of hand around the Xeon. Damning with slight admiration is the phrase that best describes the reaction of some of the enthusiast press.
Intel should have been more aggressive. It should have been more forceful in making its case for the P4 EE and the arguments against AMD's 64-bit positioning. If they wanted the enthusiasts to respect them, they should have earned the respect. Maybe Intel didn't care as long as it got the ink. Cynical and full of hubris.
I also have to bemoan the lack of a clear voice coming out of Intel. There used to be an Andy Grove, but Intel's identity right now is wrapped up in a number of executives, none of whom really stand out.
Maybe that is a problem: a single voice and a clear vision might have positioned the P4 EE better, and might have give the doubters some stronger words of encouragement. How difficult would it have been for Intel to stake out a roadmap for 64-bit computing instead of dismissing the one AMD offered?
There was a time when Intel would have mercilessly pounced on all of AMD's weaknesses. Now, it's more like waving a dismissive hand at a pesky fly. Maybe not such a good idea.
AMD: Interest Free Loan from Enthusiasts
AMD doesn't come out of all this smelling of roses. There is a simple problem with the whole 64-bit desktop onslaught that is being unleashed today:
You, the enthusiast, the main target of AMD's marketing, are expected to provide, in effect, an interest free loan to AMD while they wait it out for the 64-bit software explosion.
Here's how that works. You are not necessarily getting a bigger, better 32-bit processor than you need, or have available to you right now. You are paying a premium for a product that says, "Buy now for the future."
That would be great if it were an insurance policy, but insurance against what? Overwhelming 64-bit software applications suddenly making your hardware obsolete?
What planet are you on?
So, you're paying this premium to AMD, basically giving them an interest free loan until the 64-bit market arrives because, otherwise, AMD would just have to get by with 32-bit desktops. There's no premium for the company there, no matter how fast they go.
Our guys go to LAN Parties all the time, and the enthusiasts there don't buy Intel; they buy AMD. They're the cutting edge, the early adopters, the clique leaders. AMD's got them, but not at any price.
Will they give AMD that loan?
Will they buy into a Microsoft 64-bit OS? More to the point, how many people actually buy a copy of desktop Windows? It's thrust on us. Are we really that motivated to go out and give Microsoft an interest free loan on 64-bit software so that it can go out and build up an application base, and drive adoption into the mainstream?
Think about it.
So, while AMD doesn't suffer from hubris, they seem to be cynical in this instance. But, AMD doesn't have much of a challenge getting the message out.
This piece on Yahoo should cause a purge of Intel's marketing. It is a Reuters story that is almost eulogistic in its depiction of the AMD 64-bit pitch. If I were the AMD PR guy who got this through, I'd not only expect the keys to the executive bathroom, but I should be up for the job of CEO.
If AMD can get this into the mainstream press, what arguments are they going to get from the enthusiast press? Zilch, nada, zero.
The Enthusiast Grab
I don't have anything against the real enthusiast. They are the early adopters. They are the passionate users, the people who really care. It saddens me that they are now fodder for what our friend Mageek quite correctly calls marchitecture.
The good news is that I don't think the real enthusiast is that much of a sucker. The real enthusiast is going to see through the gaps and holes in both Intel's and AMD's marchitecture pitches. I'll even go as far as to say that the real enthusiasts are going to keep their money and their credit cards in their wallets, and their wallets shut.
The real enthusiast will realize that he, or she, is the mother lode and, in the absence of any other significant claims, everyone is going to go prospecting for them. The enthusiast grab only hurts the enthusiast: they're treated like statistics that pad the bottom line because, sure, they'll pay exponential jumps in price for incremental increases in performance.
I don't think so.
Rethink the Desktop, AMD
If Intel only finds the Tier One OEMs riding the P4 EE for gamers pitch to sell more Christmas systems to the consumer, it will be happy. Intel probably doesn't expect many real enthusiasts to jump on the P4 bandwagon, and they won't unless Intel changes its attitude, and does better marketing work at the ground level.
AMD has a bigger problem. The company needs volume on the desktop for the Athlon 64. They can't get it with a $500+ chip. They expect new system sales and a new PC infrastructure to be built around its 64-bit architecture. The only argument for the real enthusiasts to go out and build that infrastructure is the promise of a 64-bit future. Back to my argument about the interest free loan.
Maybe there is enough goodwill in the enthusiast community to buy AMD time: buy Athlon 64s in sufficient numbers to make the ramp up look good. What if there isn't? It's easy to talk up AMD, which a lot of enthusiast sites do, but do the readers vote with their wallets and back up the against-the-flow attitude by buying enough AMD hardware? Hasn't been that way so far.
My own opinion is, AMD should give up the Tier One OEMs for its desktop and put all its emphasis on the white box channel. AMD knows it is not going to be able to get into Dell and many other brand-name PC boxes, so why not emphasize selling through the channel, and make the OEMs see the high-end business go to systems integrators and box builders?
Give distribution to the mobo and chip vendors. If Intel can bundle CPUs, chipsets and other components to make an attractive package for its OEMs, let the component and system board guys do the same with your CPU to open up the competitive landscape for the white box vendors.
The P4 EE was a contemptuous slap in the face against AMD. Intel said, "We can play in your sandbox if we want to, and we aren't even trying."
Betting on users buying into a 64-bit future for the desktop isn't a strategy, it's an emphasis on a feature. AMD is hoping for the confluence of too many events to ensure its success, and if it takes more than 18 months for the desktop 64-bit market to get going, which it probably will, Intel can easily push its way in, and negate AMD's first mover advantage.
The Tier One OEM is lost to AMD on the desktop, and getting them isn't worth taking away marketing resources from Opteron. That's where AMD should put all its resources, and work with the Taiwanese chipset and mobo vendors to create greater channel penetration. Intel can hardly compete there, particularly if the struggling Taiwanese companies-- even if it is just the Tier Two guys--see a chance at making some extra profits bundling CPUs. There's the volume argument AMD has been looking for. There's all the marketing and manpower resources they need.
We'll see how things go once the euphoria subsides after this week.
I'm betting that the real enthusiasts are just as cynical as I am, and they'll play it close to their chests.
http://www.tomshardware.com/column/20030923/index.html
The Intel v. AMD Performance War: You Lose
Introduction
Only a few hours remain before the official launch of the Athlon 64. A few hours more and the Web will light up with benchmarks--at least in enthusiast circles.
A week ago, this looked like an AMD parade, fireworks display and gala banquet rolled into one. Then, in burst of schadenfreud, Intel dropped a bunch of P4 EEs on the world's tech press at IDF, and sent them all off with CPUs, in time for today's launch.
Maybe it is the pent-up need for the "Next Big Thing," and maybe it is demand for the next leap in performance, but very few commentators, observers, enthusiasts, interested parties or geeks seem willing to question the obvious amidst all the brouhaha.
Do we really believe that the 64-bit revolution is upon us?
Do we really think that we'd like to fork out half a grand, or more, on a desktop processor?
Just build the next-best thing and the buyers will come running? Surely, the last couple of years should have taught the computer industry that there's more to it than that.
Unfortunately, there isn't much room for depth right now. It's a bit of a watershed event in the CPU business, and the pressure is on AMD to succeed. Not just succeed, but to turn Internet chatter and enthusiasm into bottom line dollars.
Intel: Losing the PR Battle
However, it the middle of all this, I have to point out the failure of Intel to provide any significant opposition to AMD. I mean, it's not like what AMD has been doing has been much of a secret. Maybe the overwhelming public nature of AMD's behind-the-scenes maneuvers to get the press ready for the Athlon 64 launch helped Intel plan for, create and execute the Pentium 4 EE.
The P4 EE was a very clever move, a sign that Intel could do guerilla marketing, if it had to. That's a big deal: Intel is getting down and dirty. In the last week, Intel has successfully managed to move the spotlight away from the Athlon 64 and to get people speculating about the P4 EE.
Yet, for all the cleverness, Intel showed itself to be cynical and full of hubris, too. The P4 EE was kind of thrown into the arena, an act of contempt against AMD. There wasn't much in the way of argument or positioning. A simple chip for gamers, designed to do just enough to wipe out any performance advantage AMD might have expected in the 32-bit arena. A manufacturing sleight of hand around the Xeon. Damning with slight admiration is the phrase that best describes the reaction of some of the enthusiast press.
Intel should have been more aggressive. It should have been more forceful in making its case for the P4 EE and the arguments against AMD's 64-bit positioning. If they wanted the enthusiasts to respect them, they should have earned the respect. Maybe Intel didn't care as long as it got the ink. Cynical and full of hubris.
I also have to bemoan the lack of a clear voice coming out of Intel. There used to be an Andy Grove, but Intel's identity right now is wrapped up in a number of executives, none of whom really stand out.
Maybe that is a problem: a single voice and a clear vision might have positioned the P4 EE better, and might have give the doubters some stronger words of encouragement. How difficult would it have been for Intel to stake out a roadmap for 64-bit computing instead of dismissing the one AMD offered?
There was a time when Intel would have mercilessly pounced on all of AMD's weaknesses. Now, it's more like waving a dismissive hand at a pesky fly. Maybe not such a good idea.
AMD: Interest Free Loan from Enthusiasts
AMD doesn't come out of all this smelling of roses. There is a simple problem with the whole 64-bit desktop onslaught that is being unleashed today:
You, the enthusiast, the main target of AMD's marketing, are expected to provide, in effect, an interest free loan to AMD while they wait it out for the 64-bit software explosion.
Here's how that works. You are not necessarily getting a bigger, better 32-bit processor than you need, or have available to you right now. You are paying a premium for a product that says, "Buy now for the future."
That would be great if it were an insurance policy, but insurance against what? Overwhelming 64-bit software applications suddenly making your hardware obsolete?
What planet are you on?
So, you're paying this premium to AMD, basically giving them an interest free loan until the 64-bit market arrives because, otherwise, AMD would just have to get by with 32-bit desktops. There's no premium for the company there, no matter how fast they go.
Our guys go to LAN Parties all the time, and the enthusiasts there don't buy Intel; they buy AMD. They're the cutting edge, the early adopters, the clique leaders. AMD's got them, but not at any price.
Will they give AMD that loan?
Will they buy into a Microsoft 64-bit OS? More to the point, how many people actually buy a copy of desktop Windows? It's thrust on us. Are we really that motivated to go out and give Microsoft an interest free loan on 64-bit software so that it can go out and build up an application base, and drive adoption into the mainstream?
Think about it.
So, while AMD doesn't suffer from hubris, they seem to be cynical in this instance. But, AMD doesn't have much of a challenge getting the message out.
This piece on Yahoo should cause a purge of Intel's marketing. It is a Reuters story that is almost eulogistic in its depiction of the AMD 64-bit pitch. If I were the AMD PR guy who got this through, I'd not only expect the keys to the executive bathroom, but I should be up for the job of CEO.
If AMD can get this into the mainstream press, what arguments are they going to get from the enthusiast press? Zilch, nada, zero.
The Enthusiast Grab
I don't have anything against the real enthusiast. They are the early adopters. They are the passionate users, the people who really care. It saddens me that they are now fodder for what our friend Mageek quite correctly calls marchitecture.
The good news is that I don't think the real enthusiast is that much of a sucker. The real enthusiast is going to see through the gaps and holes in both Intel's and AMD's marchitecture pitches. I'll even go as far as to say that the real enthusiasts are going to keep their money and their credit cards in their wallets, and their wallets shut.
The real enthusiast will realize that he, or she, is the mother lode and, in the absence of any other significant claims, everyone is going to go prospecting for them. The enthusiast grab only hurts the enthusiast: they're treated like statistics that pad the bottom line because, sure, they'll pay exponential jumps in price for incremental increases in performance.
I don't think so.
Rethink the Desktop, AMD
If Intel only finds the Tier One OEMs riding the P4 EE for gamers pitch to sell more Christmas systems to the consumer, it will be happy. Intel probably doesn't expect many real enthusiasts to jump on the P4 bandwagon, and they won't unless Intel changes its attitude, and does better marketing work at the ground level.
AMD has a bigger problem. The company needs volume on the desktop for the Athlon 64. They can't get it with a $500+ chip. They expect new system sales and a new PC infrastructure to be built around its 64-bit architecture. The only argument for the real enthusiasts to go out and build that infrastructure is the promise of a 64-bit future. Back to my argument about the interest free loan.
Maybe there is enough goodwill in the enthusiast community to buy AMD time: buy Athlon 64s in sufficient numbers to make the ramp up look good. What if there isn't? It's easy to talk up AMD, which a lot of enthusiast sites do, but do the readers vote with their wallets and back up the against-the-flow attitude by buying enough AMD hardware? Hasn't been that way so far.
My own opinion is, AMD should give up the Tier One OEMs for its desktop and put all its emphasis on the white box channel. AMD knows it is not going to be able to get into Dell and many other brand-name PC boxes, so why not emphasize selling through the channel, and make the OEMs see the high-end business go to systems integrators and box builders?
Give distribution to the mobo and chip vendors. If Intel can bundle CPUs, chipsets and other components to make an attractive package for its OEMs, let the component and system board guys do the same with your CPU to open up the competitive landscape for the white box vendors.
The P4 EE was a contemptuous slap in the face against AMD. Intel said, "We can play in your sandbox if we want to, and we aren't even trying."
Betting on users buying into a 64-bit future for the desktop isn't a strategy, it's an emphasis on a feature. AMD is hoping for the confluence of too many events to ensure its success, and if it takes more than 18 months for the desktop 64-bit market to get going, which it probably will, Intel can easily push its way in, and negate AMD's first mover advantage.
The Tier One OEM is lost to AMD on the desktop, and getting them isn't worth taking away marketing resources from Opteron. That's where AMD should put all its resources, and work with the Taiwanese chipset and mobo vendors to create greater channel penetration. Intel can hardly compete there, particularly if the struggling Taiwanese companies-- even if it is just the Tier Two guys--see a chance at making some extra profits bundling CPUs. There's the volume argument AMD has been looking for. There's all the marketing and manpower resources they need.
We'll see how things go once the euphoria subsides after this week.
I'm betting that the real enthusiasts are just as cynical as I am, and they'll play it close to their chests.
02-18-2004, 02:15 PM
#45
Suzuka Master
Tom's Hardware is probably the most biased hardware site on the internet. Seriously. Ask anyone in the hardware/overclocking community and they'll tell you that Tom's is junk.
02-18-2004, 03:33 PM
#48
Senior Moderator
Originally posted by ABreece
Tom's Hardware is probably the most biased hardware site on the internet. Seriously. Ask anyone in the hardware/overclocking community and they'll tell you that Tom's is junk.
Tom's Hardware is probably the most biased hardware site on the internet. Seriously. Ask anyone in the hardware/overclocking community and they'll tell you that Tom's is junk.
oh yeah, which site would you recommend, then, that is unbiased?
r3
02-18-2004, 06:10 PM
#49
4dr & I like it that way
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02-18-2004, 06:21 PM
#50
The hair says it all
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02-18-2004, 08:01 PM
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Originally posted by Davediego
Cusdaddy - theres no way the hidden 64bit capabilities will be turned on in any of the current prescotts, they just run too hot. 64bit extensions take up quite a few transistors, prescott is already very hot as it is and if they were to be turned on its heat output will be even higher. Prescott needs a new stepping or perhaps the new LGA socket will work better for it. I agree it will be better when they scale it up, but right now its looking rather hard for them to scale it given its power consumption/heat dissapation.
again id stress for anyone buying a new PC soon to wait for socket 939 from AMD (cheaper mobos, even better memory performance) or LGA 775 from Intel (should be a better platform for prescott) as well as PCI-express. both AGP and PCI will be made obsolete by PCI-express. both new platforms should be out in a month or two.
Cusdaddy - theres no way the hidden 64bit capabilities will be turned on in any of the current prescotts, they just run too hot. 64bit extensions take up quite a few transistors, prescott is already very hot as it is and if they were to be turned on its heat output will be even higher. Prescott needs a new stepping or perhaps the new LGA socket will work better for it. I agree it will be better when they scale it up, but right now its looking rather hard for them to scale it given its power consumption/heat dissapation.
again id stress for anyone buying a new PC soon to wait for socket 939 from AMD (cheaper mobos, even better memory performance) or LGA 775 from Intel (should be a better platform for prescott) as well as PCI-express. both AGP and PCI will be made obsolete by PCI-express. both new platforms should be out in a month or two.
I agree that it's good to wait for a short time as cool new features are coming out shortly
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