Its too aggravating to argue with people this stupid

 

Oh sweet summer child.

 

I'm bringing this over from the last page because I'm genuinely curious by your standards who the best QB of all time is

 

Aaron Rodgers is. Nobody matches his combination of mobility and elusiveness, arm strength, and accuracy like him. Ever.

Why do you think Brady is the best?

 

Marino was the best in my opinion until Farve broke all his records and held almost every record in the book including interceptions (bad) and most starts in a row for QB (outstanding).

Brees broke a few so did Manning and Rodgers. But for the sheer amount of starts and toughness he showed I give it to him.

What do Bart Starr, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Montana, Steve Young and Tom Brady have in common? All multiple Super Bowl winning Quarterbacks.

Great Coaches. Determined organizations and great defenses.

 

Cheerleader was the best term I've heard to describe him...

He's more of a buddy than a coach, and it's evident by the way he rewards players when they get flagged for 15 yard penalties. It's a circus act and his teams are never prepared to go on the road and play lesser teams, they always play down to shitty teams and lose. His record against losing record teams on the road is a disgrace. Frankly I think he got lucky winning a SB with Cowher's team, and hasn't done much since. The other Superbowl that he appeared in was more credit to Arians and Lebeau than it was him as a coach.

 

Top 5 in every QB passing statistic

Most Wins of all time

Most SB wins and apperances of all time

Most playoff wins of all time

Only unanimous MVP

You can have all the talent in the world but if you dont win whats the point

 

Look...Brady's success is indisputable. Yes, some of us "hatters" will point to the shenanigans him and Pats resorted to for the purposes of winning...

That being said, the stability, system that Brady grew up in? That is something MOST pro-QBs that are debated WISHED they had. Would Brady be Brady if he was a Cleveland Brown and running for his life 99% of the snaps? There is no denying he's a good QB I guess but that system is amazing and for me, the PROOF is how every backup QB seems to do JUST FINE when Brady is suspended or injured.

Coincidence? I think not. It's like the goalie argument. The Pats are pretty much the Red Wings (of a few years ago) of the NFL. Plug in the players and watch it go.

I hate anything as a Packer too much to say how good Rodgers is. But, sure...he's "not bad".



Best QB of all-time for me would probably be Marino. I also really liked Elway.

 

So basically, only the very first thing you listed is directly related to his talents as a QB. And even then, he's top 5, not even the best. Of course he's going to be top 5, he's been healthy and a starter for all but two seasons of his entire career, and he's almost 40.

All of his SB wins are within 4 points or less. Three of them "Brady" won by a field goal. Funny how you mention talent. Vinatieri and Gostkowski = GOAT kickers

Let's not even talk about the shitty defenses the Patriots have had over the years.

In Super Bowls, Joe Montana has the best career passer rating. Brady isn't even in the top 10.

You still haven't explained how Brady is the best QB of all time. You've only told me what I already know, and that is that he is the winningest QB typical homer.

 

Ya I must of forgot the Patriots just somehow magically ended up on the opponents side of the field with just seconds remaining to win the game. Brady had nothing to do with that. Or when he said the best 4th quarter in super bowl history against arguably the strongest defense in the last 15 years

So according to you "greatness" is solely based on talent and has nothing to do with winning ?

 

FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying Brady is untalented. He would not be a starting QB for the Patriots and winner of those SBs if he was a Cade McNown.

Still, if we are ranking QBs on pure talent, I'd say he's not the most gifted. This has nothing to do with my "hatt" of your beloved team. Heck, I would rank Jeff George and Jay Cutler on pure-talent higher than Brady.

 

I'm not arguing that at all. I will never say Brady is physically more talented. My point is just because you're more talented doesn't mean you're the greatest. Two completely different things.

There's stuff you can't measure with stats like game preparation, ability to read and adapt to the defense and all the mental factors that go into a game. This is where you stay ahead of the competition

 

Well, there is deflating balls and stuff.

 

Rodgers isn't even the best QB of his franchise

 

Football is a team sport. 11 players on offense, 11 on defense, and 11 on special teams. You don't attribute wins to one single player.

So when you asked me who the greatest QB in the NFL is, I said Rodgers and I still stand by that.

Just like greatest and winningest QB are two completely different things. I'm not referring to greatest QB as most physically gifted or talented. If that were the discussion, my pick would be Michael Vick.

Rodgers has been let down by his defense and coach more times than I can remember. And his lone SB win was against the league's best defense at the time - Steelers, and he managed to drop 30 points on them.

I looked up Rodgers' stat line in that SB win - 61.5% comp, 304 pass yds, 3 TDs, 0 INTs against a defense that allowed ~14 pts/game all season.

 

Great point and I admire your empathy.

But then again, I am reminded that Newt Gingrich is a Falcons fan.

Go Pats!!!!

 

Atlanta has hosted the Superbowl twice as many times as the team been to the game itself. I had to look it up too.

 

Aw....you know someone you hate more wants the Pats. Wonder who Trump wants....

 

Besides an incontinent 13 year old Russian hooker that looks like his daughter?

 

 

Vick is probably the most talented in regards to physical gifts and ability. Rifle arm and crazy scrambling/rushing moves. But yeah he's nowhere near the top. Talent can also mean pinpoint accuracy or ability to make line calls within those brief few seconds walking up to the snap. When you build a QB, Brady certainly checks all the boxes but I think those picking Rodgers as superior feel that for some of those categories with higher weight he's better than Brady. They also feel that what Brady does better as far as late game drives (superior O-line to avoid sacks), finding wide open WR (vs Rodgers having terrible WR's), aren't fully Brady's responsibility. You'd have to give each category a certain grade and then come to a consensus how well each of them do. Mind you we discount pre-80's QB's because most of us didn't watch them. Some say Fran Tarkenton, Johnny Unitas, Sonny Jurgensen. Sadly we only have blurry black and white videos and defensively favored stats to compare to today's offensive-minded NFL in 4k.

 

At this point its not worth arguing about anymore. Its like trying to convince a democrat to vote red. I've said this from day one, if youre building a "perfect" QB in madden you end up with Aaron Rodgers but if I need one person to drive down the field to win the game I take Brady every time. If winning doesn't matter to you than go collect your participation trophy

 

I was having this exact conversation with a friend yesterday and I was saying that Tomlin has basically been treading water since taking over the Steelers. They've been a good team his whole tenure, but never seem to move beyond that. I have to wonder what would happen to them if Ben retired.

I've also been saying the bolded for a while now. I admit to being slightly biased, but there's always some sort of a cheap shot from the Steelers defense when they play divisional games that Tomlin just seems to smirk at instead of trying to reign in.

Edit: As far as the GOAT QB, it has to be Marino. The fact he has all those records and no rings shows how poor the team around him was and how much of it he did on his own.

 

"Winning isn't everything, it's the only thing."
-Lombardi

 

Yummy actually saying a Packer is not bad. Change of heart in the near future?

As Rumchata said, put Brady on the Browns and see where he is in stats. He would be scrambling for his life, and we all know he can't scramble that well. If he could take that shit team to the Superbowl, then I would have to re-evaluate my opinion. Look at the first 4 games this year, a back up QB won what, 3 of the 4 games that Brady was suspended for. This just shows you can throw anyone, that has a decent arm and makes good decisions, behind that brick wall (o-line) and WIN. Without it, your beloved Patriots would be your average team with an injured QB from time to time with the beating he would take.

 

That last take shows just how little you know about the pats. Just off the top of my head they lost two super bowls, the afc championship game last year, 2009 against the Ravens, 2010 vs the Jets because of the o-line. Its easly to make the o-line look good when the ball comes out of Brady hand in less than 2 secs

In 2007 they went 16-0 in the regular season. Next year, same exact team, Brady tore his acl opening week, they missed the playoffs. So don't just assume you can plug anybody in

 

And you want to talk about the first four games this year. Jimmy G had an amazing 1st game, but guess what he got hurt 2 quarters later. Dude couldnt last 6 quarters before being out for 6 weeks. Then Jacoby comes in for a 27-0 victory against the Texans throwing for an astonishing 103 yards and no TDs

 

"If you aint first, you're last"

 

 

I never said Brady sucked. He is a good QB but without a line, receivers, backs, defense. He wouldn't have 4 rings and wouldn't be talked about like the rest that don't have rings. I am just trying to look at things your way, winning is winning right. Just because you win doesn't make you the greatest...

 

This is the shit that makes me want to put my head through a wall. Zero fact statements that we'll never have or never know the answer to. They are impossible hypothetical situations. Stop living in fantasy land. Give me facts. Im not out here saying if Montana didnt have Rice he'd have 0 rings because its a bullshit take that cant be answered

FACT: Brady has gone his whole career without a Hall of Fame WR, RB, OL, LB, or Safety. Ty Law is currently the only player to have played with Brady and be in the HOF

Look at these fucking rosters from 2001, 2003, 2004, 2014.

 

Yes the ball comes out of Brady's hand quickly in most instances. But when it doesn't is when it gets ridiculous. You will usually see at least one or two pass rushers pancaked, with Brady still sitting pretty in the pocket. Forget the Browns, put Brady on the Seahawks and he'll get slaughtered behind that line

Also, at you mentioning the Patriots wins with their backup and third string QBs. That is exactly what some of us have been trying to say...

It's like the '00s Broncos teams. Plug in any RB and he gets 1,000 yards rushing. For the Patriots, plug in any QB and they win, at least regular season.

Look, I'm not saying Brady is anywhere near bad or even average, and nobody else is. But classifying him as the greatest "because winz" is looking at the question with blinders on.

 

Dude...your obsession is more than a little unhealthy. Just sayin'

 

What famous coach said that?

 

 

HEY! I'll admit to having an unhealthy obsession with Brady's wife, though.



No shame about it.

 

Again with the what if questions. How is your question any different than me saying if Brady was on Seattle in 2014 they would have won by 20?

Brady has the passing stats to go along with be the winningest QB ever, thats why hes the best. What doesnt he have? What else could he possible need? What is he missing?

 

 

Joneill, in some cases, stats alone is enough to warrant if a player is GOAT because his/her numbers are just THAT much more jaw-dropping than the rest of the field. One example: Wayne Gretzky. He's the greatest of all-time in hockey. Period. Mario Lemieux COULD be in the conversation IF injuries did not shorten his career but otherwise, it's not even a debate...if someone tries to say another hockey player is better than the Great One, even I would use the famous words (by an AZer no longer here): Put down the bong. And yes, Gretzky DID (like Brady) often play on stacked teams that helped pad his stats.

Now, let's give another side of the argument where "stats" are not as a conclusive indicator. The greatest NBA player of all-time for me (and most) is Michael Jordan. But, does he have the all-time numbers? Is he #1 on the stats list? Nope. And for years, he was honestly the LONE ranger on the Bulls. He had no help. I could say the same for my favorite athlete, Walter Payton...he had NOTHING. And yet, his numbers were staggering and despite just winning one mere SB, I would say he's arguably the best of all-time...but, I would concede that RB is a very debatable topic. Barry Sanders? Jim Brown? OJ Simpson?


There is no arguing Brady has the body of work to be one of the best. But, of all-time? I dunno...he's more a product of the system for me than on sheer ability and results.

 

The thing with Brady is this: And while I don't watch EVERY Patriots game, I've seen enough to say that I NEVER see Brady make an OMG-are-you-pooping-me sort of play. He's ALWAYS had a bazillion hours to wait in the pocket. Throw.

That's how he makes his plays. If you make him pull an Aaron Rodgers where he's running for his life and throwing a nutbar pass on the run which results in TD or whatever, I have yet to see Brady pull that off. He's not exactly that amazing under duress. I want to see him play as a Brown. Or Bear.

The Patriots' WRs run some EXCEPTIONAL routes. They are extremely disciplined because Belicheat warrants it (or death) and so does Brady (or nag you to death). So, given how he's not exactly lone-rangering it out there most of the time, how much of his stats are a byproduct of just an outstanding winning system? I would say, oh yes. So, while you need to execute to have success/win, there is NO DOUBT Brady is very very very very good. But, GOAT QB? Nope. He's just too comfy in the pocket in NE where I rarely see him make that OMG play. Almost never. Heck, I'd seen Jay Cutler make more hory-shet throws (to both teams, yes) than Brady.