NBA: 2009 Season Discussion Thread **Playoffs (page 6)**
cleveland.
05-13-2010, 07:55 AM
#324
Team Owner
Yup. going to play with D-Wade or LBJ would be a no brainer. So I could really see him going to Miami. But is Miami willing to pay max dollars to both of them? Raptors GM has stated on several occasions that he'll do a sign and trade if Bosh is leaving so Bosh will want/will get max money from someone.
I'm just curious why so many people (including us here in Toronto) think he's leaving.
- Obviously the team is terrible so we can all point to that.
- Otherwise, its a big market, he can make max money + huge endorsements because he has an entire country to himself. Its a solid franchise when it comes to attendance and ownership and the city is pretty damn good.
If its about winning or playing with Wade or Lebron then I get it. But if its because its in Canada then I just don't agree.
What exactly happened to VC's popularity once he left Toronto? How many All-Star games was he voted to? How often was he shown on SportsCentre?
- Obviously the team is terrible so we can all point to that.
- Otherwise, its a big market, he can make max money + huge endorsements because he has an entire country to himself. Its a solid franchise when it comes to attendance and ownership and the city is pretty damn good.
If its about winning or playing with Wade or Lebron then I get it. But if its because its in Canada then I just don't agree.
What exactly happened to VC's popularity once he left Toronto? How many All-Star games was he voted to? How often was he shown on SportsCentre?
I don't agree either and it's very shortsighted thinking.
05-13-2010, 08:12 AM
#325
Team Owner
Look at guys like Magic and Bird that spent their whole careers in big cities and what kind of marketing exposure they had. Compare that to small market stars like Malone or Stockton. NYC definitely offers the lights of Broadway and even more lucrative advertising and marketing deals for LBJ than he could ever achieve in Cleveland.Check out this table from 2008 showing only marketing dollars earned (estimate). Surprise surprise.
http://jonesonthenba.com/2008/06/top...gures-for.html
LBJ already first by a lot. Durant who plays in Oklahoma for pete's sake is 2nd and that was before his monster year this year. Ming plays for Houston but has the China effect. Kobe's Kobe. Howard plays for Orlando. Even Miamians and Tampa folks think Orlando ain't shit
. Carmelo plays for Denver. Now go down the list. Any Knicks?
05-13-2010, 10:34 AM
#326
What Would Don Draper Do?
of course there aren't gonna be any knicks near the top of the list. there are no marketable players on that team.
who do you expect? david lee?
i will, however, agree with you in that in this day and age, with the internet, social media, etc, a player doesn't have to be in a big market city to make money.
however, it appears to me that lebron's goals and aspirations go beyond simply making money and wants to be a global icon and thus wants to be in a city like ny or a chicago.
he'll be marketable anywhere he goes. but being in a big city may allow him to pursue his other interests or goals.
who do you expect? david lee?
i will, however, agree with you in that in this day and age, with the internet, social media, etc, a player doesn't have to be in a big market city to make money.
however, it appears to me that lebron's goals and aspirations go beyond simply making money and wants to be a global icon and thus wants to be in a city like ny or a chicago.
he'll be marketable anywhere he goes. but being in a big city may allow him to pursue his other interests or goals.
05-13-2010, 11:10 AM
#327
Team Owner
That's my issue. If city were so important for a player why isn't David Lee always talked about since he's NY's best player. It's because the team sucks. Performance of a team and a player no matter where they play > a city's marketability. Why shouldn't Lee be marketable? He's better than some of those players on the above list.
As far as global icon, wouldn't you say that Tim Duncan is a global icon? He plays in small San Antonio but because he has 3 rings and is good as he is he'll be in the HOF and is an icon. Why would someone as accomplished as him or Dwight Howard need to change teams to be considered icons. They already were. David Lee had better stats than Duncan this year and comparable to last year and my friend who's a quasi Knicks fan doesn't know who he is or that he's white.
As far as global icon, wouldn't you say that Tim Duncan is a global icon? He plays in small San Antonio but because he has 3 rings and is good as he is he'll be in the HOF and is an icon. Why would someone as accomplished as him or Dwight Howard need to change teams to be considered icons. They already were. David Lee had better stats than Duncan this year and comparable to last year and my friend who's a quasi Knicks fan doesn't know who he is or that he's white.
05-13-2010, 11:15 AM
#328
What Would Don Draper Do?
because maybe david lee just isn't that marketable as a player? he's a very good player, but a lot of the players on that list made their riches from years ago in their primes when they were much better than lee.
tim duncan as a global icon? no. "global icon" is an arbitrary term. but if you go around the world, do you think people will know who tim duncan is?
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
and what's the point in comparing numbers between lee and duncan? duncan is clearly towards the end of his career, and lee is putting up great numbers on a bad team. apples to oranges.
and as far as why duncan or howard need to change teams? why is that even being mentioned? perhaps they don't want to be the "global icon" lebron wants to be and be the next billionaire athlete.
tim duncan as a global icon? no. "global icon" is an arbitrary term. but if you go around the world, do you think people will know who tim duncan is?
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
and what's the point in comparing numbers between lee and duncan? duncan is clearly towards the end of his career, and lee is putting up great numbers on a bad team. apples to oranges.
and as far as why duncan or howard need to change teams? why is that even being mentioned? perhaps they don't want to be the "global icon" lebron wants to be and be the next billionaire athlete.
05-13-2010, 01:07 PM
#329
I shoot people
I'm trying to make plans accordingly for this weekend, does anyone know what day/time the first Suns vs Lakers game is? The ESPN app doesn't show the schedule beyond the Boston/Cleveland series
05-13-2010, 01:18 PM
#331
Team Owner
tim duncan as a global icon? no. "global icon" is an arbitrary term. but if you go around the world, do you think people will know who tim duncan is?
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
and what's the point in comparing numbers between lee and duncan? duncan is clearly towards the end of his career, and lee is putting up great numbers on a bad team. apples to oranges.
I'm pretty positive Peyton outendorses his brother who plays for NY. He's already considered an icon. And he plays in Indianapolis. Does he have to go to NY or Chicago to become a world icon.
and as far as why duncan or howard need to change teams? why is that even being mentioned? perhaps they don't want to be the "global icon" lebron wants to be and be the next billionaire athlete.
Again my whole point is, that LBJ is an icon already. He can play in a HS gymnasium in Timbuktu, he will still be an icon as long as his team does well. But when happens when he loses a 2nd round series to a lower ranked team. Chink in the armor. What happens if he signs with NY and they barely make a 8th seed and lose in the first round. Chink in the armor. His play and his team results will determine his iconism. Not the fact he plays for a big city.
05-13-2010, 01:39 PM
#332
What Would Don Draper Do?
He's not marketable because his team sucks. I bring up Lee beacuse he's their best player. If NY is supposed to up your status as many have speculated, why does nobody know of him? It's the counter argument how you can upgrade LBJ's status as an icon in NY. You can't because he already is an icon. How much more iconic can he get by changing teams?
i agree that nobody knows who he is bc he plays on a sorry team. but even if he's on a successful team, it's not like he's gonna have a signature shoe or be on gatorade commercials.
over here, lebron is an icon. yes. but a GLOBAL icon? dunno. he even said that he was shocked by how popular kobe was in china during the olympics. from everything he's said and implied, i belive he wants to be a GLOBAL icon like kobe. someone everyone in the world knows.
he can't be more iconic that he is now in the states or amongst basketball heads around the world. but i think he wants to be on that kobe, mj, tiger, beckham status. where people that don't even follow the sport know him.
i remember reading an article about how different MJ and nike would be if portland had drafted him. even if he became the same player he was at portland and won rings, the writer was listing reasons as to why he'd have lost money by being in a smaller market region.
You can argue that Duncan after winning his 3rd championship was an icon. He's declined through the years but there were arguments he was one of the best in the game, even better than Shaq skillwise. Plus when you win 3 championships in the NBA, then yes the world will know that team's best player.
i'm not disputing duncan's career or skills. imo, he's the best pf i've ever seen. better than malone, barkley, kg, etc.
and marketing wise, he's not the easiest and best athlete to sponsor. his personality is as exciting as paint. he's a bigman, which has its downside. despite all his success, there's a reason why his nike shoes never sold well.
You missed my point. My point was that even though Lee is putting up good numbers on a bad team (he is considered good by coaches, scouts, etc regardless of team), you would think since he plays for the New York Knicks he'd have so many endorsements as their best player. The point is Lee in NY or Utah would get the same. LBJ as a Cav, Jazz, Blazer, or Knick would be considered an icon either way. He'd still get the same high demand and pricey endorsments. The list above only validates my point because even Durant who plays for Oklahoma out-endorsed everyone else including Kobe who was still top 2, and played for LA. Again, Kobe in LA, OK, Utah, would get the same. Durant playing in OK already gets top dollar. Changing cities won't matter, he will probably be an icon too.
all those guys you mentioned are great and are making good money off endorsements. perhaps lebron wants to go BEYOND that.
there's a whole other market overseas. why do you think beckham wanted to try the whole MLS thing. europeans know that there's a market that's growing here in the states. it's small. ok, tiny. but there is a market.
i think lebron wants to be as popular as kobe was in china in 08. he's already conquered the states.
I'm pretty positive Peyton outendorses his brother who plays for NY. He's already considered an icon. And he plays in Indianapolis. Does he have to go to NY or Chicago to become a world icon.
peyton has years on eli, a longer track record, a pretty likable personality, etc.
and it's not like the nfl is a global phenomenom like the nba.
See above. Howard could possibly be the best center in the league for the next 10 years if Oden doesn't pan out and since Duncan is retiring. His team needs to improve. Shaq was already an icon playing for Orlando. He didn't need to go to LA to be more popular. He went for rings.
the thing is, maybe howard doesn't care to be the billionaire athlete like lebron want to be. so he's got a good thing going on in orlando.
Again my whole point is, that LBJ is an icon already. He can play in a HS gymnasium in Timbuktu, he will still be an icon as long as his team does well. But when happens when he loses a 2nd round series to a lower ranked team. Chink in the armor. What happens if he signs with NY and they barely make a 8th seed and lose in the first round. Chink in the armor. His play and his team results will determine his iconism. Not the fact he plays for a big city.
that's all i'm gonna say about this. we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.
bottom line is, he's rich and will continue to be rich. imo, he wants something beyond that.
05-13-2010, 01:49 PM
#333
Suzuka Master
because maybe david lee just isn't that marketable as a player? he's a very good player, but a lot of the players on that list made their riches from years ago in their primes when they were much better than lee.
tim duncan as a global icon? no. "global icon" is an arbitrary term. but if you go around the world, do you think people will know who tim duncan is?
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
and what's the point in comparing numbers between lee and duncan? duncan is clearly towards the end of his career, and lee is putting up great numbers on a bad team. apples to oranges.
and as far as why duncan or howard need to change teams? why is that even being mentioned? perhaps they don't want to be the "global icon" lebron wants to be and be the next billionaire athlete.
tim duncan as a global icon? no. "global icon" is an arbitrary term. but if you go around the world, do you think people will know who tim duncan is?
imo, a global icon is someone like a tiger woods. michael jordan. david beckham. usain bolt, maybe.
and what's the point in comparing numbers between lee and duncan? duncan is clearly towards the end of his career, and lee is putting up great numbers on a bad team. apples to oranges.
and as far as why duncan or howard need to change teams? why is that even being mentioned? perhaps they don't want to be the "global icon" lebron wants to be and be the next billionaire athlete.
Madrid and Barcelona, 2 largest cities in Spain.
Milan, fashion capitol of Europe.
Munich etc etc.
I think one begats the other. The large market teams have huge cable contracts, sell tons of apparel, and offer the Manhattan or South Beach or whatever lifestyle. D Wade is perfect for Miami, he's a bachelor, one of People magazine's 50 most beautiful, fashionable, etc. Could you see the same for him playing in Cleveland?
IMO someone like Derek Jeter is inextricably tied to Manhattan. He has his own private penthouse in the Trump tower, tags supermodels and singers like it's going out of style. I just don't see the same happening if he is a Cleveland Indian
It's almost shocking to see a player like Joe Mauer stay in Minnesota. He may be the best catcher in the game but will he ever achieve the fame of Piazza in LA?
05-13-2010, 02:40 PM
#335
Engineer
05-13-2010, 03:09 PM
#336
Team Owner
over here, lebron is an icon. yes. but a GLOBAL icon? dunno. he even said that he was shocked by how popular kobe was in china during the olympics. from everything he's said and implied, i belive he wants to be a GLOBAL icon like kobe. someone everyone in the world knows.
he can't be more iconic that he is now in the states or amongst basketball heads around the world. but i think he wants to be on that kobe, mj, tiger, beckham status. where people that don't even follow the sport know him.
he can't be more iconic that he is now in the states or amongst basketball heads around the world. but i think he wants to be on that kobe, mj, tiger, beckham status. where people that don't even follow the sport know him.
i remember reading an article about how different MJ and nike would be if portland had drafted him. even if he became the same player he was at portland and won rings, the writer was listing reasons as to why he'd have lost money by being in a smaller market region.
sure. an icon here in the states and amongst basketball heads. but do you think the kid that plays soccer in brazil will know who duncan is? or do you think the average kid growing up in asia will know or care who duncan is? probably not.
i'm not disputing duncan's career or skills. imo, he's the best pf i've ever seen. better than malone, barkley, kg, etc.
and marketing wise, he's not the easiest and best athlete to sponsor. his personality is as exciting as paint. he's a bigman, which has its downside. despite all his success, there's a reason why his nike shoes never sold well.
and marketing wise, he's not the easiest and best athlete to sponsor. his personality is as exciting as paint. he's a bigman, which has its downside. despite all his success, there's a reason why his nike shoes never sold well.
[quote]there's a whole other market overseas. why do you think beckham wanted to try the whole MLS thing. europeans know that there's a market that's growing here in the states. it's small. ok, tiny. but there is a market. [quote]
I think the ginormous contract was a big reason but I think they wanted to live in LA for Victoria's sake too. Plus Beckham's on a decline, he did get kicked off his country's team when he just didn't want to be captain anymore.
peyton has years on eli, a longer track record, a pretty likable personality, etc.
the thing is, maybe howard doesn't care to be the billionaire athlete like lebron want to be. so he's got a good thing going on in orlando.
what happens if NY builds a team around him and he brings a ring?
05-13-2010, 03:20 PM
#337
Team Owner
I agree with this statement. Perhaps it's the perceived aura or cache of being in a location like Manhattan, Chicago or Miami. Beckham had Man U, would he have achieved the same worldwide fame playing for Tottenham? Perhaps larger cities historically have attracted better players because they had more spending power and this is less true in the era of salary caps and luxury taxes.
Madrid and Barcelona, 2 largest cities in Spain.
Milan, fashion capitol of Europe.
Munich etc etc.
I think one begats the other. The large market teams have huge cable contracts, sell tons of apparel, and offer the Manhattan or South Beach or whatever lifestyle. D Wade is perfect for Miami, he's a bachelor, one of People magazine's 50 most beautiful, fashionable, etc. Could you see the same for him playing in Cleveland?
IMO someone like Derek Jeter is inextricably tied to Manhattan. He has his own private penthouse in the Trump tower, tags supermodels and singers like it's going out of style. I just don't see the same happening if he is a Cleveland Indian
It's almost shocking to see a player like Joe Mauer stay in Minnesota. He may be the best catcher in the game but will he ever achieve the fame of Piazza in LA?
Madrid and Barcelona, 2 largest cities in Spain.
Milan, fashion capitol of Europe.
Munich etc etc.
I think one begats the other. The large market teams have huge cable contracts, sell tons of apparel, and offer the Manhattan or South Beach or whatever lifestyle. D Wade is perfect for Miami, he's a bachelor, one of People magazine's 50 most beautiful, fashionable, etc. Could you see the same for him playing in Cleveland?
IMO someone like Derek Jeter is inextricably tied to Manhattan. He has his own private penthouse in the Trump tower, tags supermodels and singers like it's going out of style. I just don't see the same happening if he is a Cleveland Indian
It's almost shocking to see a player like Joe Mauer stay in Minnesota. He may be the best catcher in the game but will he ever achieve the fame of Piazza in LA?
05-13-2010, 03:40 PM
#338
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
So, if the Cavs get ousted...what're the chances that LeBron signs with LeBulls come LeOffseason...? 
05-13-2010, 09:03 PM
#341
Keeping emos out of
..and the Celtics are up by nine with a big shot from the Big Ticket. This game has me wondering if the Cavs lose tonight will it be LeBrons last game in a Cleveland uniform. He sure doesn't seem to be playing with a great sense or urgency like he did during the regular season
05-13-2010, 09:52 PM
#343
Safety Car
Cleveland Chokaliers still can't get it done. 
Lakers vs Celtics finals again this year?
Though it may very well be a rematch of last years finals. Orlando is looking good this post season too.
Lakers vs Celtics finals again this year?
Though it may very well be a rematch of last years finals. Orlando is looking good this post season too.
05-13-2010, 09:54 PM
#345
I shoot people
at least LBJ didn't just take off into the locker room like last year
oh, and this also means Lakers got home court for the finals (assuming they get to the finals)
oh, and this also means Lakers got home court for the finals (assuming they get to the finals)
05-13-2010, 10:14 PM
#346
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
@ LeCavs losing to the LeCeltics.
05-13-2010, 10:27 PM
#347
Engineer
Congrats to the Knicks fans...
Let's go Celtics!!! I think my head would explode if we could get another Celtics-Lakers finals. Orlando is gonna be tough though...
Let's go Celtics!!! I think my head would explode if we could get another Celtics-Lakers finals. Orlando is gonna be tough though...
05-13-2010, 11:03 PM
#348
What Would Don Draper Do?
the $250million is just a marketing ploy. his yearly salary is only like $6 million a year.
the rest is just incentives like owning an MLS franchise.
and he did resign as captain after the 2006 world cup but stated he wanted to continue playing for england. in fact, everyone knows that playing for england meant more for him than any of the clubs he's played for, including man united.
he was kicked out by mcclaren following germany 2006 and was used as an example for mcclaren's new regime, but he was recalled back into the squad in the spring of 2007 when he was playing some of the best soccer in his career while being a major contributor to real madrid's late season run to win the title.
The Magic are rolling.
05-14-2010, 09:32 AM
#355
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
Please sign with Chicago, LeBron.
Although, Bosh would not be a bad consolation prize.
05-14-2010, 09:35 AM
#356
Senior Moderator
LBJ - Rose doesn't make any sense either. I see Bosh either playing with LBJ or Wade with Rose and Chicago as the 3rd option.
What's now crystal clear is that these guys all need someone else to help carry the load.
What's now crystal clear is that these guys all need someone else to help carry the load.
05-14-2010, 09:57 AM
#357
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
The quote from Rosenberg of CNNSI:
"They declined an option on Carlos Boozer - gave $70 million to Larry Hughes - overpaid Drew Gooden - took Mo Williams' contract off Milwaukee's hands - took Ben Wallace's contract off Chicago's hands - took Shaq's contract off Phoenix's hands - took Antawn Jamison's contract off Washington's hands. They have acquired one overvalued asset after another. Chances are good that if you walked away from your house after the real-estate market collapsed, the Cavs now own it."
"They declined an option on Carlos Boozer - gave $70 million to Larry Hughes - overpaid Drew Gooden - took Mo Williams' contract off Milwaukee's hands - took Ben Wallace's contract off Chicago's hands - took Shaq's contract off Phoenix's hands - took Antawn Jamison's contract off Washington's hands. They have acquired one overvalued asset after another. Chances are good that if you walked away from your house after the real-estate market collapsed, the Cavs now own it."
05-14-2010, 01:35 PM
#358
Suzuka Master
Most likely but I hope the Suns series goes 7 games. Nash is running out of opportunities for a ring.
05-14-2010, 02:10 PM
#360
Senior Moderator
Thread Starter
I wish Dwight Howard was an UFA. 