JediMindTricks

holliday or rollins?

i think holliday will get it.

regardless, i had both on my fantasy team so i hope it's a tie!

salvo24

Last night was sick for Colorado. They played with a ton of heart....I don't see them going too far though.

Sox and Cubs in the World Series. Sox will take it down in 5 games.

Eoanou

Been a Met fan since the mid 90s, the only reason I said that was because its probably the worst collapse I've seen in my life time. I wasn't really serious about it, but I am curious what they are going to do this offseason, Lo Duca, Alou, Castillo, Glavine and Ramon Castro all have expiring contracts.

And they decided to keep Willie.

Eoanou

no way are the cubs making it the WS, I say Colorado has a better chance than them.

Eoanou

People are going to hate me for this, but I think Howard has a better shot at MVP award than Rollins, he was a big reason why they came back, and lets not forget he hit a HR in each of the last 4 phillies games and 5 of 6.

Also his numbers are pretty good, except BA, .268 94R 47HR 136RBI.

But Holliday should get it without a question, sole reason why they are in the playoffs he is a great player.

Eoanou

I was always curious how he got so crappy after he used to be the best 1B in the league, he came close to hitting .400 in like 2003.

IlliNorge

And he set the ML record for strikeouts in a season. And his defense is horrible.

Eoanou

I'll take Hanely Ramirez over both of them.

Eoanou

And yet his OBP is almost 50 points higher than Rollins, . 392 to .344.

Eoanou

IMO, he didn't touch the plate.

Pull_T

In 2007, I assumed anyone who discussed baseball in any serious manner did not see strikeouts as a meaningful measure of a hitter's quality.

I was wrong.


He produces. Who cares how he makes his outs? And as Eoanou points out...he has nearly 400 OBP...so he doesn't make a lot of outs.

Eoanou

Exactly, and even so Howard is 11th in the NL in .OBP DESPITE the poor BA, and 4th in the NL in Slugging.

Eoanou

Nice edit, lol.

Pull_T

Didn;t see it till after, but wanted to give u props.

IlliNorge

A .268 BA with 200 strikeouts means he made a lot of outs, most of which were not productive (moving runners, sac flies). I'll take a guy who can hit for average and power, can move runners, can hit-and-run over an all or nothing guy. A bunch of RBI's is attributed to having Rollins and Utley ahead of him. A bunch of walks is attributed to having not much behind him.

And his defense is horrible.

Pull_T

WTF does batting average have to do with the number of outs you make? OBP is a far better indicator at avoiding outs:

2007

Rollins: 527 outs
Howard: 407 outs

Takes a WHOLE lot of "productive outs" to make up for all those additional outs. And there's really nothing wrong with not puttng the ball in play anyway...for all the "move the runner over" you get by slapping the ball into play, you also get more GDPs.

There's a reason why they call moving the runner over and putting the ball into play "little things"...the reason is that they are unimportant. You don't win ballgames with 9 Craig Counsells batting for you, but with 9 Ryan howards hitting, you'd score 8-10 runs a game.

Productive offensive baseball consists of avoiding outs/getting on base (OBP) and hitting extra base hits in order to drive in runs (slugging).

Batting average is irrelevant. Strikeouts are irrelevant.

IlliNorge

And Rollins had some 50 more plate appearances. OBP is always inflated for cleanup hitters with weak #5 and #6 hitters behind. That's why they get walked. Managers aren't stupid.

You need a mix of Counsells (or Rollinses in this case) and Howards for productive offensive baseball. Tell Ozzie Guillen little things are unimportant. The Twins won the AL Central 4 out of 5 years without anybody hitting 30 HR's.

And you keep ignoring the fact that 9 Ryan Howards on defense would allow 8-10 runs a game easily. Howard's defense is horrible. That plays into why he should not get the MVP over Rollins.

Pull_T

Ok so 50 more plate appearances and 120 more outs. Those 70 outs had to have been very *productive*.

And cleanup hitters like Howard get walked because they are the most dangerous hitters. Managers aren't stupid, I agree.

And rarely are #5 hitters "weak". No less weak than the typical #2 hitter. Rollins hits in front of Iguchi and Victorino. Howard hits in front of Rowand. Now who has weak hitters behind him?


You don't need any weak hitters like Counsell who "do the little things"...players like that are not capable of hitting for power or get on base at a high rate, so they *have* to make productive outs...otherwise, they would not be playing, regardless of how much defensive value they have.

I never addressed his defense because there was nothing to respond to. I agree, he is subpar for sure...is why he plays first base where it limits his liability more than other positions.

You are the one who brought up his "strikeouts" and batting average...I was responding to that. Those figures are irrelevant, and Howard is clearly the more productive offensive player. Is Rollins' defense superior to such a degree that it surpasses Howard's overall value? I don't think so, but that's just a judgement call.

I would rate Rollins pretty average (maybe 8th- or 9th best) and I would rate Howard as being in the bottom few 1B in the NL. I'd say Adam Everrett, Alex Gonzalez, Greene, Eckstien, Wilson and Jose Reyes are all better shortstops...and Vizquel, though not at his prime is at least still his equal.

If Rollins were the best or of the best 2-3 shortstops, i might buy into his defensive value making him better oerall than Howard. But he's average.

IlliNorge

Hollins hits leadoff, so he'll never get walked intentionally. If you hit Howard leadoff or even 3rd, he probably sees more pitches. I do think defense (and SB and speed) play a decent role in MVP voting. It's why you'll never see Ortiz win the award. Howard is basically a DH stuck in the NL.

But fair enough. You present a good argument. I like Holliday over both these guys.

Pull_T

I prefer Holliday, too. But he won't win because he'll be devalued too much by Coors. With the humidor, it's really no hitter-friendly than Citizen's Bank, but the stigma from the old days is still there.

And Rollins will win...I just don't prefer him over Holliday and Howard.

Eoanou

*Ahem* no mention of me, lol. j/k


I think we can all agree Holliday is cleary an extraordinary player and he probably contributed more to his team getting into the playoffs than any other player in the NL, he scored the winning run.

Eoanou

I think the biggest appeal for Rollins winning MVP is his ability to score runs and steal bases and on top of that hit for power.

30HRs and 41SBs is pretty impressive, but his OBP is terrible, but you're argument that leadoff players never draw walks is false, Jose Reyes had 77BB this year compared to Rollins, who had 49, they both hit leadoff. Look at Ricky Henderson he is a prime example that anyone with a bit of patience at the plate can draw a walk.

Eoanou

On the topic of fielding here are some statistics for you guys,

Jimmy Rollins he is 3rd overall among NL SS this year in Fielding Percentage .985 with 11 errors, beat by Tulowitski and Visquel.

Ryan Howard has a .991 Fielding Percentage with 12 errors, but he played in 140 games compared to Rollins who played in 162. Also that also ranks 8th among 1B in the NL.

Just some stats.

Pull_T

Well, can't compare fielding percentage between a 1B and a SS.

Rollins is a superior defender to Howard, but Rollins isn't top notch and Howard isn't god-awful either.

Eoanou

Yeah, both positions have completely different dynamics.

Chr8808

iTrader: (1)

fixed

of note: Defense rarely gets factored in when voting for MVP (thats what the Gold Glove is for), its any consideration, its all the way on the bottom of the list. Unless the candidates have very very close numbers (like when Arod won out over Papi). Playoff contention, hr, ba, rbi's, ba w/risp are the stats that get mentioned the most, then they throw in the "value for the team" part to cone to their winner. I dont think they look for negatives (led the league in srikeouts, GIDPs, low walks) but more like add all the positives they bring to the table.

gocubsgo55

I'm missing Illinois vs. Wisconsin to come home for the NLDS. My Cubbies best not leave me disappointed (probably will though)...

IlliNorge

Is the NLDS blacked out in Champaign? Go Illini!

JediMindTricks

and 20 triples.

anyways, ichiro is also a leadoff hitter, who hardly ever walks.

Eoanou

But Ichiro's career BA is like .350, lol.

Eoanou

I saw on ESPN last night he was the 4th player to get 20 HR, SB, 2Bs, 3Bs in one season.

JediMindTricks

haha yea...but i was just pointing out another leadoff hitter that hardly walks.

rollins isn't your typical leadoff hitter though. i think he's much better suited as a #2 hitter.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I agree Rollins would probably be a better #2 hitter. His numbers this year was disgusting.

Eoanou

They would have put him at #2, but that's Victorino's spot.

JediMindTricks

well yea. i'm just saying that i think he's better suited as a #2 hitter. for the phillies, he's just their best option at leadoff.

Pull_T

Ichiro is overrated as a leadoff hitter.

He's good...just not as good as many give him credit for.

He's the anti-Ryan Howard...all BA and no slugging

He has to hit .350 cause he doesn't walk and he has to steal bases because he doesn;t hit for any power. Not only does he not hit for HR...he doesn't even hit doubles with all that speed. He hits like 20 2Bs a year.

For all the hits he gets, is really no better than just walking since he only has 60 RBI a year slapping the ball around. He may hit .350, but his OBP is not much higher.


Again, I'm not saying Ichiro sucks...he's good...just doesn't do enough to be a $20M a year superstar and perinnial allstar

Eoanou

Ichiro had 49 walks this year, making his OBP .396, which ranks 9th in the NL. But you're right he rarely hits anything into the outfield, 22 Doubles, 7 Triples, and 6 Home Runs, granted a leadoff hitters role is to get on baseman.

Eoanou

By the way speaking of leadoff hitters Chone Figgins has to be one of the best. He had only 440 ABs and has more Doubles, Walks and Steals than Ichiro, who had 670 ABs.

Pull_T

Oh, like I said, he's good....just not legendary or anything.

And leadoff hitters' job is the same as any other hitter:

- Avoid outs (OBP)
- Put yourself in position to be driven in (SLG and runs)
- Drive in runners on base with extra base hits (SLG and RBI)

Ichiro is normally OK for OBP...better than average.

He slugs for crap, so for all the singles and SBs he has, he really doesn't score an absurd amount of runs. 100-110 a year...which is good, just not that many considering all those hits. In 2004 he had 262 hits and only 101 runs!!!

He does't drive in runners for crap. He has tons of hits that are choppers and infield slappers, so even a hit doesn't give a great chance of scoring a runner from second. Also, he doesn't drive the ball, so even a runner on third isn't gonna get a sac fly or productive out. It's basically single or nothing.

Eoanou

On the topic of top of the line up hitters, I think Curtis Granderson was a pleasant surprise this year, he rocked.