stevesrl

Background:

When I first purchased the car, it had 83K miles on it and I changed out all the fluids. The transmission fluid change was a simple drain and refill. The transmission fluid change of this thread is in regards to the transmission fluid only and not the transfer case that drives the propeller shaft. Transmission fluid used was Honda ATF-Z1 and the total capacity is 7.3 or 7.9 liters (I forgot which one it is) but the drain and refill only requires 2.9 liters. FYI transfer case used hypoid gear oil G4/G5. Additionally, so you know, our transmissions have a filter but it is internal and cannot be changed unless you take the transmission apart.

When I changed the transmission fluid, I noticed that the fluid drained was new oil colored brown and not red as it should be. I had changed the transmission fluid 13K miles before (drain and refill) and now it is still not red. So I decided to do a complete flush by draining and refilling 3 times to completely replenish fluid to new. By draining and filling 3 times this introduces 2.9*3=8.7 liters of new fluid in the transmission. Therefore, it will pretty much get all the old fluid out. You have to drive the car and go through all gears between each drain and refill. So essentially you are purging the fluid out. I drove for approximately 10 miles after each drain and refill being sure to go through all the gears (including reverse).

I have a shudder while in 4th or 5th at 1300-1600 rpm’s and am desperately trying to fix this. I am interested if completely having new fluid will solve my shudder problem. I have been driving in sports mode all the time to keep the rpm’s above 1,600, as this prevents the shudder. I miss so much my car not being able to be driven in full automatic mode. When it shudders it sounds terrible! I offer this thread as to expose the latent problems of changing the ATF.

Procedure

1st : Raise Car

You have to jack the car up so it is level and get enough clearance to access everything. This can be a challenge. I recommend to all who would like to do this to invest in 4 jack stands and a low profile floor jack (similar to what stock car crews use). I am not positive but a regular floor jack may not be low enough to get under the front bumper. I am positive that a 2.5 ton simple floor jack will not fit under the bumper. The low profile floor jack enables you to get under the front bumper to lift the entire front end up and place the two stands behind the front tires at the lift points.

After getting the front end up on stands, go to the back and lift up rear end (at the lifting point which is the metal loop at the center under the bumper) until car is level and place the jacks under the front of the rear tires at the lift points. Note a 2.5 simple floor jack will not raise the car high enough to get the jacks into place. This can be overcome by placing wood spacers under the jack to increase the lift height.

2nd: Splash Shield Removal

Remove the engine splash shield, which is a pain and of bad design IMO. One should not have to remove the engine splash shield just to get to the drain bolt. Removal of the splash shield is self explanatory (remove screws and tabs that secure the splash shield). When removing the tabs some may break. Just take the tabs that break to a car parts store and they can match them up to the correct size and sell you a bulk bag of 10 for cheap.

3rd: Drain

Drain the fluid by removing the dipstick and removing the transmission drain bolt. Drain bolt requires 3/8” socket head (The square head on the end of a 3/8” ratchet). Before draining, make sure the engine is hot so you get a good drain (hot fluid assists with greater removal of debris).

Notice that the drain plug has a magnet on the end of it that will be covered with a thin layer of sludge like grey fluid. This is normal for the magnet catches metal debris from normal wear. After the drain flow has stopped, reinstall the drain bolt to 34 lb*ft torque.

4th : Fill

I choose to refill using the dipstick opening because it is easier than the transmission fill port. Strange as that sounds it is true. To access the fill port you have to remove the bolts on the main relay box beside the air filter and push it to the side. Even after doing this you will need a long extension to get to the fill plug. You will also need a funnel with a 12” neck to refill via fill port.

Adding fluid to the dip stick could be a challenge itself if you don’t have the proper tools to assist you. What I did is went to Advance and purchased a small hand pump. It looks like a sports ball hand air pump, like you would use to fill a football, basketball, etc. The hand pump also has clear flex hose attached to the output opening and at the end of the flex hose is a plastic tapered fitting. The end of the fitting is small enough to fit in the dipstick opening and protrude into it about 3/8”. The fitting will not stay in the opening unless you hold it into place. You can simply ask a helper to hold it in place while you pump the fluid or as I did you can secure it into place with wire tires.

To secure it into place using wire ties:

Place the fitting in the dipstick opening while holding the pump flex tube in a vertical position. You will see some wires conveniently located to the left of your flex tube. I simply sistered the flex tube to the wires using a wire tie about 3 inches above the dipstick opening. Do not tighten down on the wire tie so it pinches the flex tube. Then I removed the air intake manifold cover by removing the 4 tabs at the corners and lifting the cover strait up. I anchored the flex tube to the front right corner hole that is used to secure the front right corner of the air intake manifold cover that is now open/available since you removed the cover. Slide the wire tie through the front right corner air intake manifold cover hole that is now available, wrap it around the flex tube, and tighten (don’t pinch the tube).

Now you have a flex tube that has the fitting end placed in the dipstick hole, wired tied 3” above the dipstick hole (sistered to wires), and wire tied to the hole for the manifold cover. This arrangement is enough to keep the fitting end in the dipstick hole while you fill the transmission up with fluid. I filled a Styrofoam cup with ATF and place the cup on the front plastic cover (The pump’s input end will not fit in the ATF’s container opening). Simply submerge the input shaft of the pump into the cup containing ATF fluid and pump the fluid using the hand pump. When you are filling do it slowly. If you pump to fast the fluid will back up and run out the dipstick opening. Pump slowly and all will be fine. Of course some fluid will spill just clean it up and have a piece of plastic under the car to protect the surface beneath the car (your driveway more than likely). After you have pumped 2.9 liters of fluid in remove pump, add dipstick, and clean spillage. ATF fluid containers are only 0.949 Liters. Check level by starting car, warm up engine, go through gears, shut car off, and check level within 90 seconds of shutting car off.

5th : Mix

Drop car after fluid level confirmed/no leaking, and go for a 10 mile drive going through all gears. Then check drain bolt again for leaking.

6th : Repeat

Repeat Steps 1-5

7th : Repeat

Repeat steps 1-5

Reinstall splash shield and air intake manifold (If needed).

Finished… Take pride in what you just did for not only did you save money, you also know it was done correctly.

Notes:

I did the 3X3 flush to get all new fluid in the system and afterwards will only do a single ATF drain/refill at every oil change interval. I am transmission paranoid because I used to have a 2nd generation TL. Now when I change the fluid at every oil change interval, I should have red fluid draining out and that makes my tranny happy.

Get the hand pump and check that the fitting will fit in the dipstick opening before you do anything.

Results:

The improvement in transmission performance for me was amazing. I used to get a shudder in 4th or 5th if the rpms got down to 1300-1600 (especially under load). What I suspect was going on: If only a single drain and refill is done, you are only changing out 40% of the fluid. Therefore, most of the debris/old fluid is still in there and it is simply diluted by changing a partial amount out. The debris increases the viscosity of the fluid so the trans operates at higher pressure than designed for over the rpm/speed range. This results at higher pressure over the designed speed/rpm range for each gear. So once in 4th or 5th , at low rpm, the pressure sensors are not telling the computer that the pressure is low enough to downshift. This is because the sensors are seeing a higher pressure than they should under this specific speed/rpm. It is not that it is a false pressure reading, it’s just the pressure is greater than it should be due to the increased viscosity of the fluid. Trans does not downshift at low rpm and this causes engine lugging (what I referred to as the shudder). I conclude all this based on my own rational, observation, and conclusions from results seen after modifications have been performed. I have no technical/formal training or experience regarding automatic transmissions. If anyone can add or rip my conclusions apart, please do. I am always wanting to increase my knowledge and welcome input from those who have greater knowledge, insight, or experience than I.

I noticed previously after the 83K ATF change, that it helped decrease the frequency of the shudder. Not long after the 83K change, the shudder reoccurred fully to the extent that it did before. After the 3X3 ATF change, the shudder has totally gone away and has not reappeared over 1,000 miles since the 3X3 was done. Now in 4th or 5th the tranny downshifts as it is supposed too. Previously, it would not downshift at low rpm (4th or 5th) and shudder. So I have concluded that now the viscosity, with all new fluid, is as it is supposed to be and therefore the pressure is lower at low rpm and the trans knows to downshift.

Gabe15. I posted this with you in mind! Do the 3X3 and hopefully your shudder will go away too. Afterwards, change your ATF frequently. I will keep you posted on how I am doing. Right now I am loving having my automatic back!

I did the 3X3 trans flush before I will do a trans preventative maintenance service. This is because I want to be able to ascertain the effects of the 3x3 and the trans service independently. Service will include changing the 3 PS’s, checking resistance/operation/cleaning on clutch solenoids (A, B, and C), checking resistance/operation/cleaning of shift solenoids (1 ,2, 3, and 4), and changing the 5 pipe filters that feed/protect the clutch solenoids. Needed parts arrive today so I will be doing this during Thanksgiving week. This trans service is beyond what most people want to tackle. However, if some would like and advise, I will consider a thread in regards to this service too.

Cost

I have read threads where Acura dealership will do a single ATF change for $90.00/ drain and refill so a 3X3 would cost you $270.00 and done only by request. I have also seen where people will do a 4X4 (drain/refill 4 times). Honda dealership said they would do a 3x3 for $175. I did it for the costs of 9 bottles of Honda ATF-Z1 ($50.00) and 2-3 hours of my time.

Disclaimer and Final Notes:

I am a “Jack of All Trades” but “Master of None” and an engineer with 20 years experience with machinery of all kinds…However, do at your own risk, I take no responsibility for property damage or ones safety.

I would not recommend or offer information to anyone concerning anything I would not do myself. Obviously, I did this myself and I love my car too much to put her at risk. I am confident in saying that this is within anyone’s capability if you have the tools, willingness, and time. Albeit if I were a wealthy person, I would have paid someone, that I trusted, to do this for me. Unfortunately, doing my own service is a “Necessary Evil”.

For all those tempted to respond back saying, ”This thread is worthless without pictures” I say if you need pictures, then you don’t need to be doing this procedure.

It is noted that if your ATF fluid has never been changed and your vehicle has over 90,000 miles that a pressure flush (particularly) or 3X3 could lead to trans failure. Some shops will refuse to do a trans flush if the fluid’s never been changed and the car has greater than 90K. Pressure flushing should never be done. Reasoning is that if the debris is keeping everything tight then keeping it in there might be best. ATF has lots of detergent in it which works on debris and pressure flushing physically loosens debris. I am really not knowledgeable about the intricacies of this particular aspect and can’t give greater detail without researching.

Recycle your fluids! Do not dump on ground somewhere. If someone sees you doing this they should contact the authorities. This is a VERY bad thing to do! You can contaminate millions of gallons of groundwater! It’s not hard to place used fluid in a 5 gallon bucket and take it to your local recycling center. Most of them accept oil and probably the local parts stores do it as a service too.

Stay tuned for more technical threads to come (Propeller Shaft Whine).

Happy Driving,

StevesRL

jfarabaugh

Nice

Look foward to the (Propeller Shaft Whine) as the dealer never wants to correct mine since "they can never hear it"

bx10461RL

great write up..
I'm a diy guy...I don't mind doing it if I feel I need it......

stevesrl

Just checked service manual:

ATF:
2.7 L (2.9 qt.) at change
7.2 L (7.6 qt) at overhaul

Gabe15

iTrader: (1)

Nice write up. I especially like your explanation on the effects of hotter transmission temperature and how changes in viscosity could produce the shuddering noise we have been hearing/feeling.

I also had brownish tranny fluid when I drained mine a couple months ago. Next time I do it I will definitely do the 3X method. I assumed that is what Acura did for me in Aug 08 but after reading your post and the fact they only charged me $100 leads me to believe they probably only changed approx 3 out of the 7.6 quarts.

I was actually able to drain mine on level ground. I did however have to use a couple of those ramps initially to get the car high enough to remove the plastic shield. I didnt find the fill plug you spoke of and I couldnt find a funnel with a small enough opening on the bottom to fit in the transmission dipstick hole so I rolled the cover of a Lands End magazine into a cone, taped it in place, and slid it in the dipstick opening. One hand on the funnel and one hand slowly pouring and I was mess free.

-MiG-

iTrader: (3)

Steve, I'm about to do this on Tuesday and the only thing that confuses me about the 3x3 is the DRAIN and REFILL part! lol..

So on my first drain, I drain the entire old ATF and refill with the NEW ATF? and then drain and fill the NEW ATF after switching all grears 3 times?

stevesrl

When you drain the fluid only 40% actually comes out. Most of the remaining fluid is held in the torque converter.

So to completely get all new fluid in. Drain and refill 3 separate times. Between each drain and refill go for a 10 minute drive.

Chas2

Can you describe the point or points you use in the front to jack the car up to place the front jackstands?

Is there a link to a picture of this hand pump?

This is really good info. Thanks!

stevesrl

The front lift point:

If you look under the middle of the front bumper you will see an opening approximately 3" X 5" cut out in the front splash guard. This opening allows you to get to the front lift point. There is also an arrow on the splash guard pointing to the opening (front lift point).

The front lift point is a reinforced portion of the front sub-frame. This point is simply the middle of the front piece of the sub-frame that is reinforced with a plate.

Note: A regular 2.5 ton floor jack will not slide under the front enough to reach the lift point. You will hit the front spoiler with the jack before you reach the the lift point. This is why I went out a purchased a low profile jack. I love it... well worth the $149.00. I used Harbor Freight Tools otherwise, these cost up to $350.00.

Rear lift point:

The loop under the middle of the underside of the rear bumper.

Note: You can't lift the car high enough to get the jack stands under the support points. You can place (3) 2x12x30 (inch) pieces of wood under the jack first and then raise. Doing so will raise the car an extra 4.5" and allow you to get the jacks under the car.

If you read Gabe15's post he actually changes out the fluid without the car raise. Hat's off to Gabe15. I am jealous of his contortionism. He also used a rolled magazine cover as a funnel and avoided the pump. This is a great idea and a lot simpler than using a pump.

I'll post a picture of the hand pump.

The 4 support point where the jack's go are behind the front tires and in front of the rear tires. These point are reinforced with a plate and will be apparent if you look behind the front tires and in front of the rear tires.

I can't stress enough to be cautious with what you are doing. You will be under a 4,000 lb car and you better be sure the car is secure on all 4 jacks. Do not trust floor jacks alone. If the seal fails you could be crushed.

Chas2

Thank you stevesrl! This is great information and certainly worthy of the garage!

I just want to clarify that by jacks you probably mean what I call a jack stand, which is totally mechanical, usually with a very heavy duty pin to adjust height.

I take your warning quite seriously. Thank you.

acurafox

Stevesrl, I just used your detailed instructions to drain and refill the tranny fluid on my '05 RL today, saving me a few hundred dollars. I even managed to remove the splash shield without losing any clips. One tip I wanted to offer up for refilling the transmission with fluid: I used the nozzle of a turkey baster and a short length of rubber hose attached to a standard funnel to get the new fluid into the transmission through the dip stick tube. I actually had this left over from when I used to drain and refill my Volvo 850, and it fit perfectly into the RL's dip stick tube. If you pour the new fluid slowly and make sure that the narrow end of the baster is firmly seated in the tube (mine fits into the tube at least an inch, maybe a bit more), you should not have any spillage-I didn't lose a drop using this method, and it saved me from buying a pump.

It's posts like this one that make this forum so great-thanks again for the posting.

Juiced46

I work for a dealer as a technician and we often get customers that hear noises that are normal that they may think something is wrong and think we just dont want to fix it which is not true at all.

A suggestion to you is. Demand a test drive with the technician so you can point out the noise to him so you are both on the same page on what you are hearing and if its normal or not. Now Im not saying your car is or isnt broke, but doing this if there is a problem with your vehicle should get it fixed.

Often times when Im handed a vehicle with a noise problem. The service writer writes down on the paper work "Customer states there is a noise while driving" Well no shit! lol Often times they arent very detailed and dont get enough information from the customer. If you havent done so, explain to them, exactly what it sounds like and when it happens.

To the OP. There is a slight bit of misinformation in your post. You stated that the trans fluid was a new oil brown colored and not red. ATF fluid actually turns brown very fast (within a few thousand miles) This is very normal and a characteristic of ATF fluid. ATF fluid after being driven for a while should be brown and this is not a bad thing nor does it mean its dirty. If trans fluid is bad it will be more black. Other then that very nice writeup!

neuronbob

Thread Garaged.

PixelHarmony

Would anyone try Amsoil Synthetic Trans fluid or should I stick with Hondas?

poppintec

ATF for lifee

sirfergy

How do you know you've set the drain bolt to 34 lb*ft of torque? Did you have a repair guide for doing this or did you just figure it out?

Chas2

Try looking in the RL Service Manual in the Garage. I believe that is where you will find it.

sirfergy

Thanks!

sirfergy

So I downloaded the Auto Transmission and Maintenance files and I don't see any reference to how to drain the ATF. Which service manual was it?

Josecruz

hello hope everyone who reads this message are well , my name is jose and i am new to acurazine . I do not know if this is the right way to introduce my self on this page.I have some questions about my 2005 Acura RL . Please if anyone can help me I would be very grateful

HEAVY_RL

iTrader: (1)

welcome are you changing your fluid or have a shudder or both?

FrankZx

Help us understand more about your questions - more details.

oo7spy

Jose, . Go to the main 2G RL subforum: https://acurazine.com/forums/2g-rl-2005-2012-76/, and click "new thread". Ask all of your questions there.