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#5 spark plug failed causing damage to the cylinder head
I heard a ticking noise while driving on the freeway this morning, and turned down my radio, within seconds, it sounded like I had some sort of hole in my exhaust. Luckily I was minutes from the a dealership, so I dropped it there on my way to work.
Got a call saying the #5 spark plug failed causing damage to the cylinder head. The failure caused the mounting threads to pull out of the cylinder head for the spark plug.
I had all of my spark plugs replaced at the dealership at 106,680 miles.
I now have 140,672 miles on the car, so #5 failed under 30K miles.
It's going to be just under $3k to fix it.
I have been asked if I would like to stop by and inspect the vehicle.
Is it normal for a spark plug to go that quickly, or could it be a failure to tighten the plug properly?
Looking for any tips on what I should look for if I stop in to take a look?
if im not mistaken there is a known issue where these spark plugs could just come loose.
Hopefully someone can chime in and provide more details.
Dont know if its a TSB or recall though.
if im not mistaken there is a known issue where these spark plugs could just come loose.
Hopefully someone can chime in and provide more details.
Dont know if its a TSB or recall though.
Thanks flyromeo3. I will have to do more homework in the forums. I have read some inklings about a Service Bulletin, but I need to learn where to look.
The #5 plug is most common, followed by (IIRC) the #4 and #2.
IMO, if the dealership serviced the plugs and no one has touched them since, the dealership likely did not use anti-seize and only torqued them to the Service Manual spec of 13 ft-lbs.
If they didn't use anti-seize, they should have torqued them to ~21 ft-lbs. I would call Acura Client Services and get a case started on this. Inform the dealer that you've started a case with ACS and tell the dealer that the repair should be done free of charge.
I'm not sure if anti-seize would still show on a plug threads after 30K miles. (Does anyone else know?) If so, you could pull a few of the other plugs to check. If no anti-seize, then the dealer didn't follow Service Manual procedures which calls for A/S and 13 ft-lbs.
Edit: There is no TSB for this. This happens on other Acura engines, not just the J-32. Acura has put their head in the sand on this issue. I've never had a problem, but I've always done my own plugs using A/S and 13 ft-lbs.
Edit #2: And it shouldn't cost $3K to fix. The plug hole just needs to be heli-coiled (~$300 max parts+labor) and you'll probably need a new coil. You could do this yourself, especially for the #5 plug.
Last edited by nfnsquared; 02-02-2016 at 01:47 PM.
#5 and #2 are the most common. you can still see remnants of anti seize when you pull them, i just replaced mine yesterday. however you won't see much because it gets so hot in that area.
knowing this problem i refuse to let anyone else install my spark plugs but i also recheck the torque every 10k miles. it's my biggest concern regarding the TL since it's my DD
If the spark plug came out of the cylinder head, it likely destroyed the threads which means you would need to somehow repair the threads (difficult) or replace that cylinder head along with a head gasket. Obviously you'd have to replace the #5 coil pack as well as the sparkplugs too.
Anyways, this should cost a lot closer to 1000-1500. $3k is a bit much IMO.
If the spark plug came out of the cylinder head, it likely destroyed the threads which means you would need to somehow repair the threads (difficult) or replace that cylinder head along with a head gasket. Obviously you'd have to replace the #5 coil pack as well as the sparkplugs too.
Anyways, this should cost a lot closer to 1000-1500. $3k is a bit much IMO.
Every case I can remember was fixed by heli-coil with the head still on the car. #5 is especially easy since it's on the front. Should be way less than $1K....
Every case I can remember was fixed by heli-coil with the head still on the car. #5 is especially easy since it's on the front. Should be way less than $1K....
I stand corrected. If it can be repaired that would save the money of purchasing a used head to replace it with. I know of someone who found it easier to replace the whole head along with the head gasket and a couple of other things IIRC; but if it can be done without that, then even better!
If the spark plug came out of the cylinder head, it likely destroyed the threads which means you would need to somehow repair the threads (difficult) or replace that cylinder head along with a head gasket. Obviously you'd have to replace the #5 coil pack as well as the sparkplugs too.
Anyways, this should cost a lot closer to 1000-1500. $3k is a bit much IMO.
I was told the threads were stripped. The recommendation was to the replace the head.
The #5 plug is most common, followed by (IIRC) the #4 and #2.
IMO, if the dealership serviced the plugs and no one has touched them since, the dealership likely did not use anti-seize and only torqued them to the Service Manual spec of 13 ft-lbs.
If they didn't use anti-seize, they should have torqued them to ~21 ft-lbs. I would call Acura Client Services and get a case started on this. Inform the dealer that you've started a case with ACS and tell the dealer that the repair should be done free of charge.
I'm not sure if anti-seize would still show on a plug threads after 30K miles. (Does anyone else know?) If so, you could pull a few of the other plugs to check. If no anti-seize, then the dealer didn't follow Service Manual procedures which calls for A/S and 13 ft-lbs.
Edit: There is no TSB for this. This happens on other Acura engines, not just the J-32. Acura has put their head in the sand on this issue. I've never had a problem, but I've always done my own plugs using A/S and 13 ft-lbs.
Edit #2: And it shouldn't cost $3K to fix. The plug hole just needs to be heli-coiled (~$300 max parts+labor) and you'll probably need a new coil. You could do this yourself, especially for the #5 plug.
Oh boy. If I go to look at my vehicle, what does the "anti-seize" look like? Can a rookie like me tell?
Dude, the head doesn't need to be replaced. The dealership is a clueless idiot or they're screwing you. Go to ACS and get a case started. That will put the dealership on notice that you are on to their little game.
Have you checked the threads to see if they're still intact?
When my spark plug blew out 1: no spark plug to be found anywhere
2: the 99 didn't have coil packs just spark plug wires
3: when I called AAA I just gave him a new plug and he just bolted it right in
You may be lucky and not need any work and just new plug and coil pack
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I did not check the threads myself. I will be asking someone other than the dealership to do the work when I find a reliable shop.
I am considering also calling Acura Client Services to see if they will offer any sort of assistance. If there isn't a TSB, am I wasting my time?
I say start a case with ACS too. Less than 30K since the dealership changed plugs and one blows out? This should not be on you entirely. How long ago (date) were they changed? Months? Years? that will make a difference to "the other side".
But, about the dealer, just wondering if the helicoil fix is something a dealership would normally do anyway? I'm not trying to defend dealerships but rather wondering out loud if there are some standards set by by Honda/Acura that would prevent, or discourage, non-book repairs. That said, with the history of plug blowouts, I'd wager there IS some writings somewhere within the halls of Honda/Acura that discusses repair procedures over head replacement. A document likely found easier when a car is under warranty yet curiously hard to find when a car is out of warranty or for an owner that rarely, if ever, appears at the dealership. Give you had the dealership change the plugs less than 30K ago you probably aren't a "stranger" to them.
My recommendation (as I bought my car with the exact issue,and drove the car home 300 miles on 5 cylinders ): get a time-sert for the spark plug threads - $70 or so, and have a competent mechanic install it. It's not difficult, but it has to be done correctly, or you can just make things worse. It honestly takes 10 minutes to do, from pulling into the shop to driving out. For #5, I don't see how anyone can charge more than an hour, other than it's a gravy job that if not done leaves one nearly stranded.
Once it's installed, install a spark plug, a new coil, and crank her up. if it sounds good, let it be and drive on.
If it still has issues, it's possible that the head is damaged from the electrode. I've seen some NASTY damage from it, but most of the ones I've seen have been projectile dents in the hood. I'd say you're better off having it blow out than just be loose. When it's loose, everything gets hot and melts.
I'd be surprised if Honda did much - 30K miles is a LOT of time.
I wouldn't say the dealer tried to "rape" the OP. That's nearly what the person I bought my car said the dealer quoted him.
He told me everything they said that needed to be done, and I just shook my head and handed over a very small amount of money for the car. 6MT too! Drove it all the way home on 5 cylinders (which by the way, is awful at low speeds, but once you're on the interstate, you could hardly even tell), slapped the time-sert in, and it idled wonderful.
I don't think the dealer will do helicoil/time-serts for some reason. I don't know why, unless the techs and service writers are just looking for a mark.
First timer here checkin my plugs. Have a torque wrench, and other needed tools, do not have anti-seize at the moment. To just check them, what torque value would you use? Should I go buy anti-seize first? Copper anti-seize? Just don't want to have to do it twice! Thanks for any advice.
'04 TL ~67K miles on it. Never had any plug service/check. Little concerned.........
According to the honda manual with anti-seige it is 13ft/lbs
So without I would say 15ft/lbs?
When I pulled my very first set of plugs I didn't see anti-siege on it so I ono why they suggest to do it one way in the manual and not do it one way from the factory.
If you have factory plugs installed that you are worried about, I would just set your torque wrench to 13 ft-lbs and wrench each plug. If they're all snug, then you're good. If one is significantly loose, I'd probably replace it (with A/S) rather than try to re-torque it.
Last edited by nfnsquared; 02-10-2016 at 10:53 AM.
I check my plugs every so often and they do loosen up. One thing to consider is what temperature the cylinder head is at when you torque the plugs, this will impact the end results, like hot torquing bolts for a high heat application like extrusion dies. If you torque them while cold, and forget to do the hot torque that area will likely leak and make a heck of a mess. I torque my plugs to 20~ish ft-lb with no anti seize.
I put my second set of plugs in at 106K using A/S and 13 ft-lbs. I didn't touch them for 108K miles/5 years. I just replaced them at ~214K. None were loose at all...
I had the same issue.
My repair shop wanted thousands to repair.
I purchased the time-sert kit $200 and a $10 eBay endoscope camera and had it finished in a few hours.
With the camera you can see that the threads are not that bad. And you can see if any aluminium chips fell in the cylinder.
I had the same issue.
My repair shop wanted thousands to repair.
I purchased the time-sert kit $200 and a $10 eBay endoscope camera and had it finished in a few hours.
With the camera you can see that the threads are not that bad. And you can see if any aluminium chips fell in the cylinder.
Same thing happened to me on Cylinder #4. Car has 142,000mi. I did a helicoil thread fix and replaced plug and coil. Car runs rough still. Mechanic advised to replace engine as the labor to investigate is comparable with having an engine with lower miles put in.
http://www.helicoil.in/
When the spark plug blows, it usually takes the threads with it. So putting a heli-coil in replaces the lost threads so you can put in another plug without replacing the entire head.
According to the honda manual with anti-seige it is 13ft/lbs
So without I would say 15ft/lbs?
When I pulled my very first set of plugs I didn't see anti-siege on it so I ono why they suggest to do it one way in the manual and not do it one way from the factory.
02-02-2016, 11:07 AM
): get a time-sert for the spark plug threads - $70 or so, and have a competent mechanic install it. It's not difficult, but it has to be done correctly, or you can just make things worse. It honestly takes 10 minutes to do, from pulling into the shop to driving out. For #5, I don't see how anyone can charge more than an hour, other than it's a gravy job that if not done leaves one nearly stranded.
