fast-tl

I've been with my employer for 10yrs, 11 months. I'm a key player in this 85 employee printing company and a member of management. While on vacation this week I've discovered that my salary+bonus is 10% UNDER the minimum pay (WITHOUT bonus!!) for my position in the industry, and 15% under the median pay. I'd like to get that adjusted in this conservatively managed company. We have many 10+,20+, some 30+ and 1 40+year veteran with no layoffs ever, so the company is very stable and I believe the tradeoff for that stability is that our pay scale is on the lower end of the industry. Up unitl 5 years ago when the print industry started suffering, my raises were nice and I was happy with the salary bumps I was getting. In the 11 years I've been there, through promotions and raises my salary has tripled; this is due to my increasing value and performance. But since 2000, our raises have been 1%, 2%, 1%, and so on. Last year my raise was either $400 or $600, and I asked for more. They upped my raise to $1000.

I feel that my superior performance isn't being rewarded, and I KNOW raises aren't keeping up with inflation. Since my last significant raise in 1999 ( a change from hourly to salary with a 47% raise), I've added skills, kept up the other good work, but as I said I'm still way below the minimum pay for my position even as I've helpd the business grow in capabilities and supported our customers.

How do I ask for another adjustment and have it approved? I perform VERY well in my function, I'm reliable, well-spoken, take initiative, and am very accountable. I don't want to leave, but I've gotten two raises (including the big one in '99) to keep my from tkaing offers from other companies. I shouldn't have to shop for counteroffers every time I deserve a raise. Is there a non-threatening way I can say, "Look, I feel I'm underpaid by a margin." and successfully get bumped up?

I hate to think of what would happen if they say no...does that mean I start looking after 11 years? I'd be happy to provide more backgorund or details in return for your help. I have printouts from job sites and industry sites that back up the range I believe I should be in. If I'm so good at what I do, I'd expect to be near the median salary, not below the bottom rung. I can say it'd be much pricier to replace me but I don't want to go there, really. HELP, FOLKS!

M TYPE X

Reading your description of the company, it doesn't sound like they would take too kindly to the suggestion that they don't pay employees enough.

fuckleberry

tell them they have 2 options with you:
1) Dedicated hard working employee ---> salary adjustment
2) FT full-blown Acurazine postwhore

jlukja

Cut and paste that post into an e-mail to your boss. Thats a pretty persuasive and well written statement.

fast-tl

^^ I've thought about that option. As for them taking kindly to saying our payscale is below par, my boss is open to frank discussions. In the past he's told me I was making market wage for my work, but that's no longer the case.

doopstr

Since you have been there 10years would should have a damn good relationship with your boss. Just ask for the raise.

fast-tl

Believe me I plan to. My bigger concern is what to do in case the answer is no. I'm not very shy about asking, but I'm going to be pretty upset if it's denied. I'm not underperforming in my job, so I don't see why my paycheck is underperforming.

BigPimp

I would not ask for the raise yet. I would look for another job first and find out what you can get. Once you get another job and another offer than you can come back to them and let them know how you feel. If they say no, you will have a decision to make.

fast-tl

^^I've done that before as I mentioned. Twice. Gotten competing offers and told my boss I don't WANT to leave, but here's what I'm being offered. My boss hates that tactic, but in both cases I was ready to walk. I guess others aren't as ambitious as I am in this company, and as I said I don't want to have to shop for a job when I feel I need a raise. We have annual revenue of between $6-8M. We're evaluted every year, but the last few years, it has truly sucked. I have a pretty good relationship with my boss, but whose boss wants to go to THEIR boss and say :Hey I need another 5 or 10 grand for Lee." Get this: a couple of weeks ago we had a vendor in meeting with me, my boss and the president. (That's my whole chain of command: me, my boss and his boss is the owner.) Anyway the vendor asked me: "Are you the laminator operator?" I started to reply, Well, I'm the pre-press..." when the company president cut me off with: "He's EVERYTHING", and that's true. I'm the techie go-to guy, I manage two employees and I know, like any good employee, that my job is to make my boss' job easier, which I do. For teh compnay owner to volunteer a statement like "He's everything" is very telling, and I know they're likely nervous that they rely on me for so much. Either they can pay me AT LEAST the going rate, or they can bring in another full-time salary (or two) and spread around the duties. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

Zippee

Wait until your next review. After they get done telling you important you are, ask "then why don't I get paid like it?". The'll have a hard time saying no.

fast-tl

That's a good idea. One reason why I'm bringing up the idea is that we were just reviewed in September. Usually in March (the beginning of our fiscal year) there's an opportunity for a "mid-year" raise if performance warrants it. I wanted to raise the issue with my boss early next week to give him time to plan for March. As in, "I'm bringing this up now, so that by March you'll know what you will or won't do on the issue." Hopefully any increase would be immediate, buit I'm certain he'd have to go to the owner to get it approved.

BigPimp

Well, do they have a reason not to give you a raise? is the company not doing as well, are they afraid if they give in there is no end to your requests?

BigPimp

I really think you are not going to get your market worth at this company so as rough as this sounds, you might be better off going somewhere else.

anothercls

When you say you've looked for other jobs with higher salaries, were they in the same area? I believe Salary.com has a tool to help determine your worth based on the location of the company. I work in the poorest county in NJ, so I do get short-changed on what I make due to this, but this has always been my companies idea to pay less due to the area.

fast-tl

Well, the printing industry as a whole isn't doing so hot, but my whole floor was recently redecorated, we brought in new equipment ($700,000 printer, $20,000 laminator, $15,000 wide format printer) plus I hired someone at $26,000 per year. So, we're far from broke, but I just think any manager would hesitate at being asked for a $5000 - $10,000 increase. I'm really trying not to call it a RAISE, but more of an adjustment. Let me just go ahead and put the rough numbers out there. Salary.com doesn't have prepress manager, but payscale.com does. I'm at roughly $49K salary + $2400 potential bonus per year. So if I'm in tip-top shape I'm at roughly $51,400. According to an industry site:

Compensation
Prepress Managers salary is $55,570 to $66,000 depending on the size of the company and staff.

Job Outlook
Excellent. Prepress Management is the fastest growing discipline in the Printing Industry.

The way I frame that is since we're a smallish company, and they think I'm a great prepress manager, SURELY I should be earning more than the MINIMUM range. Hell, I'm four grand BELOW the minimum for the position.

I'd like to see $60K based on my evaluation of my performance (roughly $10,000 increase). Since I'm not degreed, and they said they would pay for me to attend college. Maybe I could ask for an increase PLUS tuition.

fast-tl

Yes, I have made sure to try staying in the Texas area when researching salariaes to avoid the whole apples and oranges. It's not very simple to find salary range for Prepress managers anywhere let alone specifically in Dallas. I just need some convincing argument other than "pay me or I'm gone." Part of what's keeping me there is the mortgage two kids and two car payments: what if I leave and don't like the new place? That's why I'm hoping to broker a good deal here. It's not as if they would wonder "what are we getting for our money?" I don't wnat to fall into the trap of "we'll pay you, but here's more responsibility" when the whole point is to be paid farily fro what I'm ALREADY doing, you know?

M TYPE X

The job I left in Ohio (at a small company) was the same way: paid below what I considered to be the market minimum for the work. But I left, because I'm young and I can do so without having family-and-mortgage problems. But guess what? The company doesn't care, a worker to them is a worker, and cost to them is cost. So they pay little and get the bottom of the barrel, or disgruntled people who know better and leave.

The only way you know is if you raise the question, but blowback is always the possibility.
I agree with BigPimp: if you can find something else ... unless you really like your job enough to be underpaid. I like the "increase plus tuition" idea. If you ask, don't do it halfway: ask for everything you believe is market-competitive.

But again, to be cold water on the situation due to my personal experience: the small companies aren't out there to be market-competitive in terms of employee compensation.
People work as small companies because there's less bureaucracy and the people are supposed to be more congenial (that wasn't the case where I was).

fast-tl

I must say that I'm a fairly big fish at my company and that's one of the things I like: the only bureaucracy exists between me, my boss adn the owner. you may be right about small company pay scales, but I'm going to shoot for at least the minimum+tuition. I'm going to attack this on Monday ot Tuesday, but I welcome all the feedback I can get. I'll certainly report back to the group with a post-mortem.

fast-tl

I'm having lunch with my boss tomorrow to "talk about my compensation." I've printed reports from industry sites and salary sites and listed what I bring to the company (which should certainly be evident by now.) Wish me luck unless there are any last-minute pointers. I don't know whether to take my printouts with me to lunch or have them at my desk as backup in case they're needed once we return.

dallison

man i was getting screwed with the 250 per year raise with bumfuck cingular, they would then proceed to lower commission payouts then

fast-tl

Lunch went fine, but no hesitation to review my compensation, but for some reason I forgot that MY boss has to get such a large increase approved by the owner. He told me to make a case fro myself in writing as to what number or range I want, as well as any research I've used, and he'll sit down with the owner. Soooo, I'm going to cut and paste a little of my posts, along with what I've seen from Salary.com and other sites, and put together a nice package for them. I wonder if there are any templates for this sort of thing?

jlukja

Excellent. If the raise comes through ... fast-tl is buying

fast-tl

I handed 2 signed copies of my 4-page "Business Case for Salary Review and Adjustment" today, one for the boss and the owner. I quoted 8 sources and demonstrated that my pay had actually REGRESSED when you factor in inflation versus the percetn riases I've been getting. Also pointed out my excellent reviews and performance that wasn't being rewarded at the current rate. I didn't put out a specific number, but my sources quoted ranges and median salaries in line with what I deel I deserve, so I asked to be paid according to my value! :crossesfingersandtoes:

sipark

Good luck!

I've been talking to my manager about salary adjustment and I got a 500 bucks award.

DJDZ

In the end, you need to do what is best for you and your career. Although your current company appears to be stable, the majority of long-term employees will get only incremental salary increases year after year unless you are being consistently promoted. The only real way to make substantial increases in your salary in a short period of time is to test the market for your skills. You can definitly make substantially more by jumping to another company that is willing to offer you a higher salary. If your employer values you, he would be willing to match any offer to retain you. If he says no, then you need to move on. Thats just how the job market works.

fast-tl

You are completely correct. I pointed out in my business case that not only am I in a key position with the company, but seperate from that I'm a key *employee* in that position. For example, the US President. That's a key role in government, but not every person who fills that position is valuable. I felt good that I didn't have to hold the threat of leaving over their heads (for the time being!!).

This was the first ever "business case" I've ever had to write, and I didn't follow any template, but I believe I was convincing. We shall see, hopefully within the next couple of days...

fast-tl

The last couple of big raises I got by showing them the offers of other companies that tried to hire me away, using the old "I don't really want to leave, but..." scenario. I seem to recall that my boss said something like "if you feel there's better opportunity out there, best of luck.." before quickly changing his tune when I actually handed over a letter of resignation. Why would he throw away many years of good service (which has made the company $$$) and have to replace someone of my skill level and attitude because they're cheaping out on the payscale? He came to his senses and things have been OK until my wife's income has started to run away from mine! She earns 42% more than me, so I'm trying to close the gap, a little!

DJDZ

You should be so lucky that your wife is making good money. I agree you should be paid what you are worth and the only way to find out is if you test the market for your skills to see what the competition is willing to pay.

If you are contemplating on leaving, negotiate the best possible deal you can but always leave on good terms with your boss. After all, you don't want to burn any bridges which can happen if you are always threatening to leave for more money.

Good Luck,

Dennis

fast-tl

^^ Good advice. I'd rather not leave after 11 years. We may have a negotiate "some now, some later" or a mix of cash and more perks. We'll see.

Slinks

You can only use the "I got an offer from ___ for ___" so many times. The fact that you've used it multiple times before and are still below market shows that your company lags in giving out raises. I suggest you leave now for a better offer, that way you don't have to deal with this every few years, and neither does your boss.

fast-tl

I've used that twice, and the difference this time is that I'm using industry research, rather than competitive threats, to get a raise. As part of my written proposal I recommended that my future increases at least cover inflation (for satisfactory performance) so we don't have these "adjustment cycles" and recommendation number two was to be sure that excellent performance is rewarded so that my pay at least remains in line with industry practices. So the ball's in their court now. There are departments in the company that are lsoing money; the department I work in is responsible for 99.9% of the profit. The $$ losses in other departments are what eats up the profit we make, and unfortunately keeps raises low. But in a kay role like mine (supporting the technology and customers that MAKE us money) I have to be paid according to my worth. As I pointed out in mt report, you can't just put ANYBODY in this position and get the same value I provide. I go on-site to customers, vendors, etc. I meet with sister companies around the globe, representing the company, and I have to know what the heck I'm talking about. I can't work for peanuts, and I can't get the same 1% raise that underperforming departments get.

Another manager here says that we ought to cut salaries/people 10% in those other departments and give 10% raises in ours (hmmm,good idea), but it's not the employees fault if our salespeople aren't selling the product made in those departments. *sigh*. At least I'm looking out for #1.

bkknight369

good luck to you

fast-tl

No word yet. Wifey says to give it until March (the beginning of the fiscal year). What do you think? A "reminder" would be awkward, I believe.

M TYPE X

Don't they have to plan these kind of things "in the budget" ?? The sooner, the better.

95gt

I would give it to march if the boss comes and talks to you. Don't sit and wait for something like a chump, they will just keep delaying it. Ask for an update after the holidays.

fast-tl

My boss said today (out of the blue) that he hadn't forgotten about my salary request. but he hadn't found the right opportunity to bring it up to the owner. I said "Thanks for the update" having resisted the urge to ask for a progress report.
My wife says to not expect a resolution until March (our fiscal year ends in Feb. and some interim increases are given then when they didn't fit the budget for the previous September.)
How long should I give it to expect a yes or no? Would you guys leave (after 11 yrs) if the answer was No? If the answer is not "Yes" it'll likely be somewhere in the middle or a combo deal (cash + perks of some sort.)

95gt

Be careful man, this reaks of what happened to me. My boss told me I deserved a big raise and he was working on it, he was "working on it" for about a year before I decided to go to HR and talk to them. Apparently he never had asked his boss for anything for me.

I would keep pressuring him to talk to the owner, hell what does he have to lose he is just talking to the boss about a possible raise, not a big deal at all. There is no valid reason he can give that he can't raise the issue with the owner

Good luck

fast-tl

True. The good thing is that there is only me, my boss and his boss(the owner) to contend with. HR would only receive notice from my boss or the owner to adjust my paycheck amount. I will try to forget about it until March, when the fresh budget starts.

moomaster_99

Smells like your boss might think his boss is gonna give you his job....

mamboking

worst, sounds like his boss asked for a raise first and doesn't want to hit the big boss with another request for fast-tl....