What do you think of the RLX?
12-13-2012, 10:51 AM
#41
From Lexus.com
Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements.
And, I see yours listed as the ONE model of their whole line up that didn't recommend it but is that representing what the brand itself is asking for?
Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements.
And, I see yours listed as the ONE model of their whole line up that didn't recommend it but is that representing what the brand itself is asking for?
Last edited by Trentimus; 12-13-2012 at 10:54 AM.
12-13-2012, 10:53 AM
#42
David_Dude
Sorry, I just caught this too.. What is weird about that? Netting 10 horsepower off of a high octane fuel is actually really good.
402 @ 6500 rpm (5.0L V8 refular fuel)
420 @ 6500 rpm (5.0L V8 premium fuel)
^ Difference for the new 2013 5.0 Mustang.. So, is it weird they only gained 18 horsepower? Where the lowly 2.0 gained 10 horsepower? Do you know about tuning and the difference the octanes make in this case? Basically allowing them to retain(or gain) the same MPG with higher power output and better engine longevity
Acura performed a great feat there.. They gained 7% through a octane tune alone. Whereas Ford gained 4.4%...
In the famous words of Vin Diesel, "ASK ANY RACER, ANY REAL RACER" they'd pay for premium fuel to net a 7% power gain, increase reliability and retain fuel mileage.
And, to your point, what luxury brands don't request premium fuel?
Just my
(Sorry mods for my double, triple reponse.. I can edit them all into one if need be)
**Edit.. Just hit me this is the post about the RLX..**
OFF TOPIC!
402 @ 6500 rpm (5.0L V8 refular fuel)
420 @ 6500 rpm (5.0L V8 premium fuel)
^ Difference for the new 2013 5.0 Mustang.. So, is it weird they only gained 18 horsepower? Where the lowly 2.0 gained 10 horsepower? Do you know about tuning and the difference the octanes make in this case? Basically allowing them to retain(or gain) the same MPG with higher power output and better engine longevity
Acura performed a great feat there.. They gained 7% through a octane tune alone. Whereas Ford gained 4.4%...
In the famous words of Vin Diesel, "ASK ANY RACER, ANY REAL RACER" they'd pay for premium fuel to net a 7% power gain, increase reliability and retain fuel mileage.
And, to your point, what luxury brands don't request premium fuel?
Just my
(Sorry mods for my double, triple reponse.. I can edit them all into one if need be)
**Edit.. Just hit me this is the post about the RLX..**
OFF TOPIC!
I don't care if it was off topic, I like how you compared different manufacturers and how high octane's provide more gains percent-wise.
Puts things into perspective a bit.:
12-13-2012, 10:57 AM
#44
From the apparent GOAT, BMW:
Running On Regular: Do Premium Vehicles Really Need Premium Gasoline?
From Stan Baldwin
Long before gasoline rocketed through $4 a gallon many people were dismayed to see a significant percentage of their income disappearing into the tank of their car. Today, a wobbly economic outlook, increases in the cost of most other forms of energy, as well as the cost of life’s staples, have prompted folks to look for every possible way to cut back on spending. “Can I save money by running my car on Regular?” “Will it hurt the engine?” my friends ask. More than one person driving a car the manufacturer has spec’d for Premium has told me “I use Regular and my car runs fine.” Are there consequences of “down grading” your fuel? It is definitely a timely question, so we sent e-mail inquiries off to a half dozen manufacturers asking about their technology and their policy on the matter.
While waiting for their reply let’s review some internal combustion engine characteristics. Fuel does not truly explode in a cylinder, at least it isn’t supposed to. It burns smoothly, albeit very rapidly, across the cylinder. The octane rating is a measure of the propensity a given fuel has to burning, rather than exploding. Gasoline “exploding” in the cylinder is frequently called “detonation” or more colloquially, “knocking” or “pinging”. These explosions, because they happen as the piston is rising during the compression stroke and try to shove the piston back down the bore, can do damage over time. In the case of severely stressed motors, such as in race cars, a few seconds of serious detonation can destroy the engine. Two of the mechanical considerations affecting how smoothly a fuel burns are compression and cylinder head configuration. Two variable considerations of great importance are the temperature in the cylinder and the ignition timing. Every manufacturer designs and builds their engines to operate most efficiently for the application intended with a gasoline of a particular octane rating.
Not all that long ago, before the advent of engine management systems, the result of tanking up a high compression vehicle with standard grade fuel was immediately obvious. Providing the stereo wasn’t cranked up past 100 decibels, the pinging or knocking from the engine compartment let you know something was not right. Driving up a hill, towing a load or simply accelerating quickly produced an unnerving rattle from under the hood. It sounded very much like your carbureted V-8 had morphed into a diesel. Until the age of microprocessors enabled the creation of engine management systems, the consequence of a steady diet of low octane fuel could be fatal for a high performance engine.
General Motors, Honda, Toyota and BMW responded to our inquiry. Honda’s public relations representative declined to comment on the issue. Toyota noted that essentially all their current models are designed to run on 87 octane. I asked about using 85 octane, available in some markets, and Bill Kwong of Toyota corporate PR told me they would run fine, with maybe only a slight 2-3 percent decline in horsepower and fuel mileage. But 85 octane is usually only offered in markets at altitude (i.e. Denver, Colorado) where the reduced oxygen doesn’t allow an engine to reach full designed power in any event. If you drive a modern Toyota, the octane rating of your fuel isn’t much of an issue. But what about a brand aimed squarely at the performance market? What about BMW?
Thomas Plucinsky, BMW Product and Technology Communications Manager told us all BMW engines are designed to run on 91 octane. All performance testing, including EPA emissions and fuel mileage, is done with 91 octane. However, though BMW is all about performance, their motors will run on 89 or 87 octane without damage. The knock sensors pull the ignition timing back and eliminate detonation. There will be a loss of power and a decrease in fuel mileage, but the size of the horsepower loss and the increase in fuel consumption depends upon many factors, such as ambient temperature, exact formulation of the fuel and driving technique, so BMW does not offer any estimates for operation on lower grade fuels. One not so obvious concern, Mr. Plucinsky noted, is the type and quality of additives the gasoline companies include in the fuel. Premium gasolines may have better additive packages which are more effective keeping fuel systems (particularly injectors) clean and working efficiently, than those in regular grade fuels or off-brand products. Using lower octane or off-brand fuel could be degrading the fuel system over time, setting you up for a repair bill down the line.
Dave Muscaro, Director of Engine Development/Calibration for GM power trains explained GM has “three flavors” of fuel specification for their offerings: Regular (87 octane) Recommended, Premium (91) Recommended, and Premium Required. Again, we are more concerned with the last two categories where regular could be substituted for the specified Premium. All the engines have a knock sensing ability that retards the spark when detonation occurs. For the premium recommended vehicles the spark advance will be pulled back enough to eliminate the detected knocking. The typical driver will not notice a performance decrease, except under load, and mileage will decline slightly. The engines intended for performance, such as the LS7 or the supercharged small block V-8, are Premium Required powertrains. The customers clearly were not primarily concerned with economy when they chose a performance vehicle and GM optimizes the engine management system to deliver the highest possible power output at all times. To this end the detonation control system does not retard the spark to the point required to prevent all knocking. It would seem a determined deranged drag racer could run Regular in his Corvette and, over time, he might manage to melt a piston or two.
If burning 87 octane in your car, when 91 octane is specified, will not harm the engine, and the performance degradation is not noticeable in typical driving, how much money can you save? The Energy Information Administration, U.S. Government Department of Energy, offers some figures for US gasoline retail prices (these are averages, all areas, all formulations). A year ago Regular was going for $2.982 a gallon and Premium was commanding $3.196 a gallon. The 21.4 cent difference delivered a 6.7 percent saving over Premium. This June 23, 2008, Regular extracted $4.079 from your wallet while Premium sucked up $4.312 for every gallon. The differential (23.3 cents) has grown slightly since 2007 but buying Regular is now only 5.4 percent cheaper than Premium. Since 5 percent is roughly the typical percentage of mileage decrease to be expected with the 87 octane fuel in a 91 octane engine, is there any savings at all?
Bottom Line: Most modern engines are fuel injected and controlled by sophisticated engine management systems which can rapidly and accurately compensate for lower octane fuel by retarding the ignition. Running these cars on 87 octane will not hurt them. However, the immediate savings at the pump may be wiped out by the subsequent drop in fuel mileage and performance, not to mention the possibility of damage over time.
***
Anyways, I was wrong about the horsepower.. I apologized. The RLX, I love the way it looks.. can't wait to see it in person.
I'll
out now
Running On Regular: Do Premium Vehicles Really Need Premium Gasoline?
From Stan Baldwin
Long before gasoline rocketed through $4 a gallon many people were dismayed to see a significant percentage of their income disappearing into the tank of their car. Today, a wobbly economic outlook, increases in the cost of most other forms of energy, as well as the cost of life’s staples, have prompted folks to look for every possible way to cut back on spending. “Can I save money by running my car on Regular?” “Will it hurt the engine?” my friends ask. More than one person driving a car the manufacturer has spec’d for Premium has told me “I use Regular and my car runs fine.” Are there consequences of “down grading” your fuel? It is definitely a timely question, so we sent e-mail inquiries off to a half dozen manufacturers asking about their technology and their policy on the matter.
While waiting for their reply let’s review some internal combustion engine characteristics. Fuel does not truly explode in a cylinder, at least it isn’t supposed to. It burns smoothly, albeit very rapidly, across the cylinder. The octane rating is a measure of the propensity a given fuel has to burning, rather than exploding. Gasoline “exploding” in the cylinder is frequently called “detonation” or more colloquially, “knocking” or “pinging”. These explosions, because they happen as the piston is rising during the compression stroke and try to shove the piston back down the bore, can do damage over time. In the case of severely stressed motors, such as in race cars, a few seconds of serious detonation can destroy the engine. Two of the mechanical considerations affecting how smoothly a fuel burns are compression and cylinder head configuration. Two variable considerations of great importance are the temperature in the cylinder and the ignition timing. Every manufacturer designs and builds their engines to operate most efficiently for the application intended with a gasoline of a particular octane rating.
Not all that long ago, before the advent of engine management systems, the result of tanking up a high compression vehicle with standard grade fuel was immediately obvious. Providing the stereo wasn’t cranked up past 100 decibels, the pinging or knocking from the engine compartment let you know something was not right. Driving up a hill, towing a load or simply accelerating quickly produced an unnerving rattle from under the hood. It sounded very much like your carbureted V-8 had morphed into a diesel. Until the age of microprocessors enabled the creation of engine management systems, the consequence of a steady diet of low octane fuel could be fatal for a high performance engine.
General Motors, Honda, Toyota and BMW responded to our inquiry. Honda’s public relations representative declined to comment on the issue. Toyota noted that essentially all their current models are designed to run on 87 octane. I asked about using 85 octane, available in some markets, and Bill Kwong of Toyota corporate PR told me they would run fine, with maybe only a slight 2-3 percent decline in horsepower and fuel mileage. But 85 octane is usually only offered in markets at altitude (i.e. Denver, Colorado) where the reduced oxygen doesn’t allow an engine to reach full designed power in any event. If you drive a modern Toyota, the octane rating of your fuel isn’t much of an issue. But what about a brand aimed squarely at the performance market? What about BMW?
Thomas Plucinsky, BMW Product and Technology Communications Manager told us all BMW engines are designed to run on 91 octane. All performance testing, including EPA emissions and fuel mileage, is done with 91 octane. However, though BMW is all about performance, their motors will run on 89 or 87 octane without damage. The knock sensors pull the ignition timing back and eliminate detonation. There will be a loss of power and a decrease in fuel mileage, but the size of the horsepower loss and the increase in fuel consumption depends upon many factors, such as ambient temperature, exact formulation of the fuel and driving technique, so BMW does not offer any estimates for operation on lower grade fuels. One not so obvious concern, Mr. Plucinsky noted, is the type and quality of additives the gasoline companies include in the fuel. Premium gasolines may have better additive packages which are more effective keeping fuel systems (particularly injectors) clean and working efficiently, than those in regular grade fuels or off-brand products. Using lower octane or off-brand fuel could be degrading the fuel system over time, setting you up for a repair bill down the line.
Dave Muscaro, Director of Engine Development/Calibration for GM power trains explained GM has “three flavors” of fuel specification for their offerings: Regular (87 octane) Recommended, Premium (91) Recommended, and Premium Required. Again, we are more concerned with the last two categories where regular could be substituted for the specified Premium. All the engines have a knock sensing ability that retards the spark when detonation occurs. For the premium recommended vehicles the spark advance will be pulled back enough to eliminate the detected knocking. The typical driver will not notice a performance decrease, except under load, and mileage will decline slightly. The engines intended for performance, such as the LS7 or the supercharged small block V-8, are Premium Required powertrains. The customers clearly were not primarily concerned with economy when they chose a performance vehicle and GM optimizes the engine management system to deliver the highest possible power output at all times. To this end the detonation control system does not retard the spark to the point required to prevent all knocking. It would seem a determined deranged drag racer could run Regular in his Corvette and, over time, he might manage to melt a piston or two.
If burning 87 octane in your car, when 91 octane is specified, will not harm the engine, and the performance degradation is not noticeable in typical driving, how much money can you save? The Energy Information Administration, U.S. Government Department of Energy, offers some figures for US gasoline retail prices (these are averages, all areas, all formulations). A year ago Regular was going for $2.982 a gallon and Premium was commanding $3.196 a gallon. The 21.4 cent difference delivered a 6.7 percent saving over Premium. This June 23, 2008, Regular extracted $4.079 from your wallet while Premium sucked up $4.312 for every gallon. The differential (23.3 cents) has grown slightly since 2007 but buying Regular is now only 5.4 percent cheaper than Premium. Since 5 percent is roughly the typical percentage of mileage decrease to be expected with the 87 octane fuel in a 91 octane engine, is there any savings at all?
Bottom Line: Most modern engines are fuel injected and controlled by sophisticated engine management systems which can rapidly and accurately compensate for lower octane fuel by retarding the ignition. Running these cars on 87 octane will not hurt them. However, the immediate savings at the pump may be wiped out by the subsequent drop in fuel mileage and performance, not to mention the possibility of damage over time.
***
Anyways, I was wrong about the horsepower.. I apologized. The RLX, I love the way it looks.. can't wait to see it in person.
I'll
out now
The following 3 users liked this post by Trentimus:
12-13-2012, 11:53 AM
#45
Instructor
From Lexus.com
Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements.
And, I see yours listed as the ONE model of their whole line up that didn't recommend it but is that representing what the brand itself is asking for?
Lexus recommends Premium Unleaded Fuel for all 2008 and newer model year vehicles. For older models, please consult your Owner's Manual for recommended fuel requirements.
And, I see yours listed as the ONE model of their whole line up that didn't recommend it but is that representing what the brand itself is asking for?
Hope I don't get crushed on the board here, but I use regular in my ILX. Hate to say it, but it's a lease so I'm not concerned w/ the long term effects on the engine.
12-13-2012, 12:01 PM
#46
Interesting. That was one of reasons that made the Lexus enticing. I was using premium in my 07 TSX and then switching to a Hybrid that took regular seemed like an obvious advantage.
Hope I don't get crushed on the board here, but I use regular in my ILX. Hate to say it, but it's a lease so I'm not concerned w/ the long term effects on the engine.
Hope I don't get crushed on the board here, but I use regular in my ILX. Hate to say it, but it's a lease so I'm not concerned w/ the long term effects on the engine.
I think even if you owned it, there is no reason to bash you for it.. Ultimately, when you're given the knowledge/information then it's up to you how you want to maintain your car. Wether it be paint, tires, or motor.. it's up to what you want the end result to be and in your case like you already know.. you don't care because you'll be done after your lease
Plus like that article I posted.. I think the ILXs learning ECU will try to reduce any negative affects.
12-16-2012, 12:18 AM
#47
. I respectfully disagree with you. That is okay if you want value. Who doesn't ? The problem is, is it actually giving you value? You want value and reliability.... A Honda Civic 2013 with leather trim is only missing a Push button and the Acura badge and it is essentially 5k-7k cheaper. That is your "Value" right there. I don't know what else kind of value you are looking for. A 2011 Corolla can be equipped with push button, moonroof and it is one of the most reliable car you can get without premium fuel. Clearly, you would buy it for the badge of Acura and nothing else. What I am saying is if Honda wants itself to have Luxury then they should fully embrace it and not do it half-ass. Both Infiniti and Lexus have done it. I know there is a price difference but you never would see a IS 250 or a G37 be compared to a Corolla and a Sentra would you? Image and the actually top of the line stuff matters to people. I really don't care about alot of the complains about the ILX such as horsepower, memory seats etc. but if you want to sell luxury cars you should have them. Ultimately, I feel like I got what I paid for and I wished I paid more to get something more (better insulation, electric seat on passenger etc).
12-16-2012, 12:24 AM
#48
In Vancouver, I was offered around 39-40k pay in cash comparing a IS 250 RWD with moonroof vs 34k ILX tech. ILX won over me hands down because it had a backup camera, a Nav and in my opinion, much more leg room (which is weird cause its 107 wheelbase compared to the 105) and of course 5k-6k cheaper. So I think if Acura really wants the value thing for there customer they need to charge more and go all out. I don't mind paying the extra 4k for a different engine, the electric seat and a bit more deadening. It would still be a much better buy and still 1k cheaper. You get where I ａｍ ｇｅｔｔｉｎｇ ａｔ？
12-17-2012, 08:32 AM
#49
That is okay if you want value. Who doesn't ? The problem is, is it actually giving you value? You want value and reliability.... A Honda Civic 2013 with leather trim is only missing a Push button and the Acura badge and it is essentially 5k-7k cheaper. That is your "Value" right there. I don't know what else kind of value you are looking for. A 2011 Corolla can be equipped with push button, moonroof and it is one of the most reliable car you can get without premium fuel. Clearly, you would buy it for the badge of Acura and nothing else. What I am saying is if Honda wants itself to have Luxury then they should fully embrace it and not do it half-ass. Both Infiniti and Lexus have done it. I know there is a price difference but you never would see a IS 250 or a G37 be compared to a Corolla and a Sentra would you? Image and the actually top of the line stuff matters to people. I really don't care about alot of the complains about the ILX such as horsepower, memory seats etc. but if you want to sell luxury cars you should have them. Ultimately, I feel like I got what I paid for and I wished I paid more to get something more (better insulation, electric seat on passenger etc).
The statement that I bolded is bullshit. For lack of the ability to not be rude.. I'll just say this, I can't read anything you say (which may be very valid opinions/points) when you say stuff like that.. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN/BEEN IN A CIVIC??? It's not an ILX, dude..
12-17-2012, 08:45 AM
#50
Yes the economy car, Civic, is the better value.. but it is not luxury.
The statement that I bolded is bullshit. For lack of the ability to not be rude.. I'll just say this, I can't read anything you say (which may be very valid opinions/points) when you say stuff like that.. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN/BEEN IN A CIVIC??? It's not an ILX, dude..
The statement that I bolded is bullshit. For lack of the ability to not be rude.. I'll just say this, I can't read anything you say (which may be very valid opinions/points) when you say stuff like that.. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN/BEEN IN A CIVIC??? It's not an ILX, dude..
12-17-2012, 09:46 AM
#51
Three Wheelin'
12-17-2012, 10:35 AM
#52
12-17-2012, 09:50 PM
#53
Yes the economy car, Civic, is the better value.. but it is not luxury.
The statement that I bolded is bullshit. For lack of the ability to not be rude.. I'll just say this, I can't read anything you say (which may be very valid opinions/points) when you say stuff like that.. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN/BEEN IN A CIVIC??? It's not an ILX, dude..
The statement that I bolded is bullshit. For lack of the ability to not be rude.. I'll just say this, I can't read anything you say (which may be very valid opinions/points) when you say stuff like that.. HAVE YOU EVER DRIVEN/BEEN IN A CIVIC??? It's not an ILX, dude..
12-17-2012, 09:55 PM
#54
Did I make the cheap shot of this car is a POS because it has low horse power and cost an arm and a leg in the States? Did I bitch about the fact that you could get a TSX for the same price? I am pretty sure I didn't.
12-17-2012, 09:57 PM
#55
Interesting. That was one of reasons that made the Lexus enticing. I was using premium in my 07 TSX and then switching to a Hybrid that took regular seemed like an obvious advantage.
Hope I don't get crushed on the board here, but I use regular in my ILX. Hate to say it, but it's a lease so I'm not concerned w/ the long term effects on the engine.
Hope I don't get crushed on the board here, but I use regular in my ILX. Hate to say it, but it's a lease so I'm not concerned w/ the long term effects on the engine.
12-17-2012, 11:39 PM
#56
Death, it's in how you're putting your sentences together.. If you were saying "I wish I would of spent the extra 10k to get a 3 series with the features of my ILX" that's one thing. Or, "I don't really care for the gas savings, I would rather have 50 more horsepower" that's one thing.
I dunno I don't mean to be one of the people jumping at you like we personally feel attacked. It just comes off like you're just attacking the ILX with nothing productive to say.
We all agree with some of your points.. Look around people agree the car could use some more sound deadening. But, you attacked the car for this and that; compared it to cars well outside of its class, ect.
Anyways, I am with you on some of your points. I just get bugged by how you go about saying what you mean which is my fault. The 2L motor isn't a bad value, I can see where someone would sacrifice some MPG for the 2.4L power. The car could definitely use some sound deadening materials in the doors and trunk.
However, as far as "luxury" I have yet to see a review that was hard on the quality of the interior. And, you seem to focus on the fact this car's foundation is the Civic... This statement is something that should be loosely used. I am willing to bet you'd never guess this was a Civic based platform. As far as the 2013 Civic.. I don't think this car will be near the quality of the ILX.. Why? It's a Civic.. Civics will continue to be Civics. They are the definition of value within the Honda line up..
I dunno I don't mean to be one of the people jumping at you like we personally feel attacked. It just comes off like you're just attacking the ILX with nothing productive to say.
We all agree with some of your points.. Look around people agree the car could use some more sound deadening. But, you attacked the car for this and that; compared it to cars well outside of its class, ect.
Anyways, I am with you on some of your points. I just get bugged by how you go about saying what you mean which is my fault. The 2L motor isn't a bad value, I can see where someone would sacrifice some MPG for the 2.4L power. The car could definitely use some sound deadening materials in the doors and trunk.
However, as far as "luxury" I have yet to see a review that was hard on the quality of the interior. And, you seem to focus on the fact this car's foundation is the Civic... This statement is something that should be loosely used. I am willing to bet you'd never guess this was a Civic based platform. As far as the 2013 Civic.. I don't think this car will be near the quality of the ILX.. Why? It's a Civic.. Civics will continue to be Civics. They are the definition of value within the Honda line up..
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