My PMM 5AT Tech was transported from McDaniel's Acura in Charleston to Columbia where I purchased it on 11/20/2012 - #05201.

 

Not getting carried away, I understand this forum is not representative of the average car buyer.

However my opinion is that Acura loses car sales by restricting consumers choices in how they offer their cars with a manual transmission. I started noticing it in the 2010 TSX, if you want the manual you are forced into Ebony interior and one of three exterior color choices. Now if you want the manual in the TSX you better like the SE version because that is all it comes in.

I was hoping with the introduction of the ILX and the greater projected sales volume, Acura would offer additional choices for interior color and the option to pay extra for the Tech package.

I understand what Colin has explained many times as for Acura's reasoning for controlling costs by simplifying the production runs for the manual. But, I believe by limiting the consumers choice Acura is artificially creating a smaller market for the manual.

Which begs the question, if Acura offered the manual in more options would the greater sales number offset the added cost involved in producing more variations of the manual?

As for your figures do those numbers account for cars that are not even offered with a manual? There are quite a few cars that are not available with a manual. A more accurate "Take Rate" would be only comparing cars offered with a manual transmission option as opposed to "vehicles sold across the industry." In which case the percentages would even be higher.

 

You make some valid points, and, building further off of that, bmw offers virtually any combo of options on their manual transmission vehicles. I wonder if Acura's cost savings is accrued by the production limitations.

Your point about comparing take rates across vehicles that offer a manual transmission is also an important consideration point. It means very little to compare manual transmission take rates against Siennas and the like because nobody would buy those cars for a manual transmission.

 

Hard data to gather for an industry outsider! Closest I got was that according to Edmunds, in 2012 64% of cars did not offer manuals compared to 48% in 2002. That said a couple of points supporting and justifying the decrease in manual transmissions...

1. The cost difference for manual vs automatic is gone.

2. Fuel economy has now favored autos with the 7 and 8 speed transmissions.

3. Urban driving, a la stop and go traffic, is no fun in a manual.

4. If you can drive manual you can drive auto, but not vice versa...

That said I will definitely be buying a manual car in the future!

 

And then... if you wanted all those choices Acura would have to be a powerhouse like BMW or Ford... which it's not.

 

I will clarify on that.. Acura is obviously targeting to make vehicle package decisions easier for the average consumer. They believe that only 5% of their car would be sold in the manual variant.. now consider that only 5% of them will sell in that trim, what would sell in Manual/Tech Package? Probably something like a 0.25% of the already small 5%.. Companies like BMW and Ford can offer you any variety of any vehicle because guess why!?! They have a bigger customer base than Acura.. more people means more sold which means you can justify the price to appeal a specific package to 3,000 people vs 300. Acura is looking at is as.. we will sale 100 of these cars, 5 will be manual.. if we offer the manual in tech less than one of those 5 will be a Tech package..

Just my thoughts on it at least.

 

Or, rather than stock those, make them available as special order. Have the option there for a 6MT Tech, but it has to be ordered, with a deposit, or something like that.
Maybe not to the extent that MINI offers, but something closer.

Not a great comparison, but Saturn was that way to an extent in their early years.
IE: Unlike most Hondas where an EX requires a sunroof (and now, an automatic trans), you could get an SL2 (Civic EX Sedan equivalent) with manual windows, power locks, no sunroof, "leather" & a 5MT.

Just IMO.

 

It just doesn't sound cost effective when you have the customer base that Acura does.. comparing them to powerhouse selling brands like Honda, Ford, Saturn, BMW.. it's all irrelevant in the end.. you're comparing where as there is an opportunity to sale 3000 specific models to those specific customers, there is only let's say 300 for Acura. That's what I am trying to point out.. where does it become cost effect for Acura to sell an extra 1 unit per 400 units sold.. that's based on my guess that .25% of the 5% of all manuals would be sold as a Tech package.

That's most likely where Acura is.. in the end it might make you happy as a customer but it doesn't make money and if it doesn't make money it doesnt make sense.

 

It would really help me give you a raw number based on projections if someone chimed in with what percent of all ILX sales will be tech package.. but I somehow doubt that is even 10%

 

What I do want to see in the future is maybe Acura releases a performance version of the ILX for a premium price. I doubt they'd do this but imagine a limited production model, maybe Milano Red, special body kit/spoiler, Suede insert interior like the TSX SE models, give it a sporty suspension, rims and tires..... then the kicker.. LETS SUPERCHARGE IT.. 260 base hp w/ a LSD..
:racecar:
Damn that would be expensive, but I might have to buy it... lol...

 

Well, the SE with all of the features it had was only 1k more than a standard non-se model. So, assuming the ILX would charge 1.5k for a body kit, wheels, and the interior refinements, the all that there is left to do is add the cost of an lsd and beefed up suspension. I'd pay 2.5k for all of that.

 

They don't break out sales results by trim level. However, they do break out orders by trim level. So, while this is not representative of what is being sold per se, it should give you an idea where things are moving and where they are not. Remember, there has been no ILX production for the last two months.

We are now ordering cars for February production, 40% will be base ILX, 53% will be premium package, 7% will be premium package with manual transmission, 0% will be technology package. Regarding Honda restricting trim level combinations. I understand that BMW will let you build any combination of any car. I always see people on forums asking "why can't Acura do it like this?" I don't understand why people aren't asking, "why can't BMW build their cars at Acura prices?

Anyway, I know that no manufacturer would ever come out and say it, but you have to imagine there must be a few "bean counters" within the company that are thinking, you're lucky we make a manual transmission at all". And the truth is, we are. Manufacturers are dropping manual transmissions left and right. Fewer and fewer young buyers know how to drive them. Fewer and fewer and fewer young drivers aspire to drive them.

 

I'll play Devil's Advocate again...present company excluded how many people would actually spring for that? A small percentage of the 5% buying 6MT. And what percentage of those people wouldn't rather:
1. buy a Civic Si (you have hinted at already for yourself already about "jumping ship"!)
2. buy a used ILX or Acura, save loads of $, and go the aftermarket route
3. buy another cheaper alternative not in the Honda/Acura family, WRX, Evo, BRZ/FRS, MX5, genesis coupe
4. buy a more expensive alternative BMWs, Mercs, Audis, Porsches, Infinitis (too many models to name)

Competition for an "entry level sports car" is great. Competition for an "entry level luxury sports car" is great. The Honda big wigs are finding an unfilled niche, small entry level luxury sedan and exploiting it. Corporate Darwinism!

 

No offense to the enthusiasts (of which I consider myself), but IMHO the real population to go after is the environmentally conscience nouveau riche. A good looking, affordable, reliable, entry-level, fun to drive hybrid sedan with the MPGs to back it up would be huge. I don't know how it is in your city, but in STL the Prius infestation is out of control! But, I know many Prius owners who are only in it for the MPGs; they hate the looks and feel of the car. Hybrids might not win many fans from TOV or Acurazine, but a successful model (fingers crossed for the new Accord) would represent the essence of the Honda Motor company as a progressive force in the automobile industry...

 

I don't disagree, nor am I petitioning for that. I'm content with the car as is; though if I was offered an AMG-esque variant, I'd certainly spring for that. That notwithstanding, I should rebuttal that Volvo offers R models, Audi offers S AND RS models, BMW offers M models, Mercedes offers AMG AND AMG Black models, Ford offers ST AND other limited production models, Chevy offers SS models...the list goes on. Virtually every manufacturer finds a profitable means of producing a go fast variant of their cars. Heck, even Chrystler has the SRT variants...why can't Honda find a way to make money...something isn't adding up.

 

I agree with the hybrid sentiment. I live in the DC area and it seems like 1 out of 8 cars on the road is a hybrid. I'm on my second hybrid (last car was a 2010 Lexus HS250h) and really only wanted to get another hybrid but I didn't even consider buying a Toyota or Honda b/c I wanted to stay in the luxury market. I think eventually you'll be seeing a hybrid version of all models.

 

I just don't see the economy in doing the hybrid thing. It's been a week or so since I did the calculation, so the number is approximate, but I believe you would have to drive 91,726 miles to break even based on the current average price of fuel in the USA in a Hybrid ILX Tech vs an automatic ILX Tech. If that break even point was to 30-45,000 I might consider it. Of course, fuel prices change. The more expensive, the more in the quicker you get to that point.

 

What does "the more in the quicker" even mean? Lol

 

Hmm. My figures also do not account for the opportunity cost of the Hybrid, or the added interest costs of financing for the hybrid. Of course it's better for the environment, just not a solid fiscal decision in my opinion.

 

I think me and Spdandpwr were really just day dreaming.. obviously as I concluded the same "It makes you happy but it doesn't make money and if it doesn't make money it doesn't make sense" - this was in reference to offering the tech package for the ILX w/ Manual.. Obviously this same statement is true to a performance model.

Guys the answer is VERY simple.. We want them to be like BMW or Ford and offer so many different trims with so many different options; where do you see Acura justifying the ability to do this? They can't for one simple reason

EXHIBIT A (and the only thing relevant): BMW AND FORD SALE A HUGE AMOUNT OF CARS IN COMPARISON

Acura can't be all of those things as Collin stated unless they
ONE: up the price even more
TWO: It was more than a 1 unit increase per 400 units sold to add in a Tech Pck Manual combo.. (this is a guess but let's be real) if there is, for EVERY TRIM LEVEL sold 400 units sold then that means an estimate of 20 manuals will be sold which I bet o20nly 1 of those will sell as a Tech Pck where does Acura make their money back for offering that combo when they sell under 2,000 units per month? 5% of that is 100 leaving there to be under 1 tech package per 2000 total units.. That's how they decided to eliminate it.
***Just an educated guess based on theory and projections****

 

Onto the idea of a Hybrid.. the technology is stil very unevolved in my opinion.. Whenever almost ALL models are Hybrid then you'll see the costs reduce significantly enough for it to matter. Let's see what the future holds though.

 

I'm not here preaching about being green...all I know is that the number of Prius(s) on the road is disproportional to the quality of the vehicle. In addition, an affordable luxury hybrid sedan is an exploitable niche right now. Its makes good business sense for Honda to get into that area while the competition isn't yet fierce...

S&P, realistically lets say the we make the performance version of the ILX. How much would that cost Honda? Gotta hammer out the reliability issues in the TCs and SCs to make them Honda worthy. How much would it cost consumers? Probably looking at $35K+, close to $40K, or even more? How many people would buy it over the well established performance luxury brands out that you pointed out? The BMW Ms, Audi Ss, and AMGs... Those companies have inundated and filled that niche. Your association of luxury performance with those badges pretty well demonstrates that...

Why shouldn't Honda/Acura define a new the luxury hybrid niche so in 10 years somebody on another forum can rue about the lack of credible competition to Acuras...When I say "Luxury hybrid" what pops in your mind?

 

I don't disagree with you rxj27.. Acura's goal is affordability with reliabilty the same as Honda minus the luxury aim.

Like I said, we were just day dreaming again referring back to I KNOW
That it would make me happy as a customer but it wouldn't make money for Acura and if it doesn't make money it doesnt make sense to them.

 

Honestly, an Infiniti M Hybrid was the first thing I thought of when you said that. Drove one about 2 months ago (friend works at the Nissan-Infiniti proving grounds here in Arizona) and it impressed me. Fast, luxurious, AND gets good MPGs. $54,200.

http://www.infinitiusa.com/m/specs-options

 

27/32 MPG 360HP

 

Haha...sorry about the rant! I totally agree with you and was in Al Pacino Devil's Advocate Mode. Let it be recorded that I sure wouldn't be driving a hybrid if I wasn't a married family man!

But times are changing...maybe performance and hybrid won't be mutually exclusive. Hell, the Motortrend COTY was an electric car with a base 362-hp and 306 lb-ft of torque, 0-60 times of 5.6s...

 

^ I would take 5.6 0-60 ANYDAY... That's incredifast.. people are so caught up in numbers they forget how fast 5.6 is because some production car can do it in less than 4..

 

I had a 2003 Cobra those were 390 HP @ 4.7sec in 0-60.. compare to "electric car" at 5.6

That's incredible.

 

Not to nit-pick on just one point. But Honda (Acura) did offer a TC engine, RDX.
I test drove one & liked it, but it was out of our budget at the time, since we were about to buy a house. No idea on long term reliability out of it though.

Agreed on the Infiniti M, but I have a distaste for Nissan/Infiniti personally.
Also, though I have no real experience around them, there's the Mercedes E400 Hybrid - $55.8k & the S400 Hybrid - $93k

I'm a little biased toward MB, I've had 2 older diesels & my grandmother is on her 5th S-Class, but they're beyond any practical budget I have for a while.

 

Ironically they are making a performance version!!! 0 to 60 mph in 4.4 seconds!!! Glad someone is excited about this car. I tried to bring it up few weeks ago and S&P brushed me off like dirt off his shoulder...

As for the begone turbo RDX..."When we launched the '07 RDX with the 2.3-liter turbo engine, we were using the turbo to maximize engine power. We feel that we accomplished this as this engine produced 240 hp. However, it came at the cost of higher fuel economy than the market ultimately craved once gas prices started to climb," Acura spokesman Chuck Schifsky said.

I guess that kinda defeats the whole purpose of a turbo...

 

I am excited because that right there shows a REALISTIC hope for hybrid performance vehicles.. We all know about EPA regulations to come.. Many performance cars will fail to evolve, I fear, and die.

 

I will tell you that I leased my ILX... 3 years. If there is not a Type-S model after the lease option I am going to buy it back and turbo it to just under 300hp. like 280 would be perfect for my liking.

 

The Lexus CT200H is not too bad. It has style, handles well, has luxury features, but lacks 'get up n go' like most hybrids. I drove one when it forst came out. The car is pretty small, but pretty nice. I just wasn't used to the lack of acceleration. But you get the Prius drivetrain in a much nicer package.

Hopefully hybrid costs will come down as technology and production effeciencies drop the costs. That will bring the break even point closer and closer to the 30-45k range.

Agree.

The RLX Sport Hybrid will offer performance, luxury, and 30mpg, but at a price point north of $60K. I assume the TLX will offer a hybrid like the Accord and that might be a more affordable package. I don't think the Accord Hybrid will be a huge cost premuim. But I think you will get most of that back in resale value. So while it is a bigger upfront cost, you get some of it back when you sell it.

 

http://www.autonews.com/article/2012...-quick-changes

2.4L automatic is on its way...

"The car was planned for a 2.4 automatic, and we're working to fulfill that"

 

I think this will sadden some 2.0 owners, but don't dispare the 2.4 will sacrifice miles per gallon! Look at the positives.. but yeah.. I am sure I'll be sad when they update the "Dynamic" 6-speed with an LSD and stiffer suspension lol..

 

Yeah I have to say I'm pretty pissed.

They could do a 2.4L and 6-speed auto transmission and probably balance the fuel equation.

 

Shoot, I should hold off on modding my car because if I see a 2.4 with lsd, I'm moving into that.

 

If they do the Earth Dreams 2.4 I could see that.. but if it's the K24Z7 or the A3 don't count on it. Sorry, that some of the ILX/Civic buyers are being kinda slapped with this indecision Honda has..

Doubt it, keep in mind the RSX never got it.. The LSD will cause a jerky feeling at times in daily driving around bends n such.. It's nice if you're trying to rip on your car but it will factor into how "smooth" the car feels which is why Acura usually doesn't opt for it. But, it would be nice if they added it.. I'll just add one myself though, I wouldn't buy another car for it.

 

WHAT WILL MAKE ME MAD : They put the 2.4L Earth Dreams motor into the 6-speed ILX and kill our chances for an aftermarket due to the limited availability of the K24Z7.. let's pray the '13 Civic Si and the '14 ILX continue to use it.

 

Wow, nice. So the 2.4 is on its way to the auto.

I have to disagree with this, though, from the article:

"We have never had a true flagship sedan," said Mendel. "We're in a position now where we can build that flagship, and in a couple years we get the [NSX] sports car. It's when we need it that we will be delivering our signature in terms of smart luxury."

From 1986 to 1995 the Acura Legend flagship was THE model to beat. It sold like crazy and was an industry benchmark. Things have gone downhill since.