rxj27

http://acuraconnected.com/tag/acura-sales-2012/

September Sales numbers just out.

Couple of points
-ILX sales seemed to have peaked at about ~1700 units a month. Don't see Acura meeting their annual sales goal of 40,000 units per year.
-Huge drop in TSX numbers. September was the first month ILX sold more than TSX. Unfortunately, that drop in TSX purchases was not correlated with an increase in ILX purchases. Seems people are simply walking away from the Acura brand rather than buying into the ILX as a TSX replacement.

Hopefully the IIHS safety rankings and consumer reports "recommended" badge will help.

gonzo08452

maybe they're going for the new Accord?

rocket354

A few thoughts.

1) too many bad reviews for the ILX to catch on with the 3000+/month they seem to expect, at least at this stage. Increase the market by offering nav with the stick and auto with the 2.4 engine and they'd sell more.

2) There are other reasons for the TSX sales decline. I think the TSX is dropping because it's a '12 model and so it could just be vanishing inventory. Plus competition from the new Accord and/or people waiting for the '13.

3) I think the ILX can and will get to 3000+/month in another year or so. They kill the TSX, create a TLX replacement that is essentially a rebadged TL. The ILX has options that move it more upstream. They keep a low-end line with cloth/150hp (or whatever low-end ED engine they decide to use) but then they offer the full array of tsx goodies on the top-end, maybe even chuck in a V6 at the tip-top. Then there's more separation between the lines. The ILX can be a small nimble luxury sedan with good performance, the TLX will be the larger touring luxury sedan. At that point, a year or two down the line, the ILX could very well do better than expectations, and shed the limited-options stigma with which it's currently saddled.

4cruizn

Was just looking at the numbers today as well.

ILX Sales Since Release:

• June - 1081 units
• July - 1410 units
• August - 1733 units
• September - 1737 units

TSX Sales Since ILX Release:

• June - 2602 units
• July - 1980 units
• August - 2103 units
• September - 1681 units

spdandpwr

looks like august was a solid sales month for Acura

Rocket_man

For the TL, MDX, and the new RDX which continues to sell well. The new ILX doesn't seem to be holding up to sales expectations, almost half of the sales they need. Big hit to the TSX. This is actually the lowest monthly sales for the TSX since Jan 2010.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

I don't think this is a supply problem. No one should be waiting for a MY 13 since there is no appreciable change. It is either the ILX cutting into sales, or just some lost of interest in the TSX. I don't think this will get better as the new Accord ramps up in production/sales and offers features the TSX doesn't. We'll see if the Acura nameplate can attract buyers away from the newer Accord.

rocket354

Yeah I can't imagine they predicted 3000 ILX's sold per month on top of their existing line. If adding a model increases sales by that much, they should just add 5 new models! The point is to attract more buyers by expanding the customer base that is interested in your product. The TSX and TL are very close to each other in terms of size, what they offer, etc, so they overlap a lot in market appeal. Likewise, the ILX isn't too far from the TSX in the other direction (most of the size difference really is trunk and hood; the interiors are surprisingly similar in size).

I think once they (if they) kill the tsx, they'll have two models that satisfy a wider range of customers than they have now, and that the ILX will sell 3000+ units in its fully matured form (fully set of options, trim levels, etc). I think ideally what they are aiming for is ILX + TLX sales > TSX + TL sales. ILX + TSX + TL would probably be similar to ILX + TLX, but with the added cost of keeping three different model lines in production rather than just two.

The other alternative, is they are keeping all the model lines and are just dreaming.

Any way you look at it, however, there seem to be some strange decisions being made by the powers that be at Acura/Honda.

CoquiTSX

+10

spdandpwr

unfortunately, acura, unlike most other car brands has consumers now cross shopping against three of their own models. Look at the TL sales, they exploded this month. The TSX isn't selling worse because of supply, it's selling worse because, relative to the deals you can get on the TL, the tsx is a bad value. The TL has a lot of dealer cash tied to it and dealers have huge incentives to literally give these cars away.

terdonal

The competition for car sales is getting tougher and tougher. There are a lot of good vehicles out there that bang for the buck are taking the sales. It is only getting to get harder for Acura to compete against them imo and I have owned Acuras since they entered the market place. Their forward thinking and bang for the buck is being eclipsed by a lot of players in this game.

sfguy

I would have gone for the TSX but live in a big city with a very small garage and the ILX made more sense. If I was in the suburbs or a rural area it would definitely have been the TSX.

Acura needs to market the ILX in urban areas a good city car--which it truly is.

rxj27

With all of the urban-centric catered Ride and Drive events, the Metric tour, and their TV commercials, Acura really tried to go after that population. I think the problem with Honda/Acura is that their research division let them down. The thought was that there exists a market that would be more impressed by the Acura badge, fuel efficiency, and the hint of luxury rather than pure performance and the horsepower badge of honor. Unfortunately, based on the tepid ILX sales numbers, that demographic might not exist or be viable.

For the most part, I think ILX shoppers are largely the same population that would have previously bought TSXs. With the lack of tangible performance parameter options more of these people are simply walking away from the brand.

spdandpwr

If there was a true type-s, Acura would've undoubtedly claimed the 26+ male demo that it wanted.

rxj27

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...501067192.html

Honda missed earnings forecast due to Chinese boycott and a push to move all old models... Seems to me that all things considered if the ILX sales numbers are near expectations (~40000 units), then maybe Acura will want to hold off introducing dramatic changes such as the ED engine for a few years...Curious to know how this earnings disappointment, low ILX numbers, and rumored new Civic model will influence next gen ILX.


New Civic type R details...
http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/honda/c...type-r-details
New 2013 civic details...
http://automotivediscovery.com/honda...-sale/9215342/

tsxinva

Any further breakdown of the sales numbers as to which models are actually being sold?

Like how many hybrid vs 2.4 etc.?

4cruizn

They do break out the Hybrid but not anything else. There were 140 Hybrids sold in September 2012.

Rocket_man

Acura has previously said they will incorporate the ED engines when they are ready, not waiting for an MMC. I think like Colin said they meant this car for the ED engine and the earthquate made that impossible. I don't think the ILX will even get to 30K much less 40K/yr. They need to make changes that improve the car at no cost increase, or reduce the costs.

I think TSX sales will suffer against the new Accord. On a value basis it is hard to argue the Accord is not a better value. If you like the Acura brand you may still pick the TSX. Most people won't know this is the last year of the TSX, but they will probably know it is long in the tooth and want someting new like the Accord. If I had to buy a new car now, I'd probably pick the Accord over the TSX, because right now value is more important than 'luxury.' Not everyone will make the same judgement, but I think enough will to hit TSX sales. It may take a few months to see it though.

rxj27

I absolutely agree with you, but the "competition" has really stepped up. Honda had to have loaded the new Accord with all the new toys (blind spot monitoring, adaptive cruise control, etc.) to even compete with the Camrys and Altimas. Aside from more HP, which the new accord also has plenty (278 in the V6 version), I (as a car noob) can not really think of anything more to add to the TSX aside from the prestige nametag (which is important)...

As a selfish ILX owner, I am worried that the new 2013 Civic, which Honda appears to be rushing out, will further hurt tepid ILX sales. The current gen Civic was such a step down from the ILX in terms of interior "workmanship" it must have driven at least a few people to the ILX.

The EDs need to be in the ILX ASAP (wish I knew of this before buying!) and the cost needs to go down.

musty hustla

I think the ILX is a couple years too late. It would have been perfect early in the recession when folks were "downsizing" and trying to save face. The civic-like horsepower/acceleration is a bit sad though. Why didn't they put in the first gen RDX motor or at least a detuned version?

Acura's other problem is that Honda is competing with them. It's going to be mighty tough for the TLX/RLX to compete when the Accord has those same features at a similar price, similar cabin space/layout, similar horsepower, does 0-60 in 5.6sec, runs on regular, and creates the frugal perception (a bonus in these austere times).

rxj27

So, I guess both of us are hinting at the same thing...Is there a place for the Acura brand in our world today (btw austere times = awesome description!)?

sfguy

I saw those ads. They were geared towards very young, urban "hipsters"--the very people who are not buying ANY cars at all (http://www.motortrend.com/features/a...ng_less/?ti=v3).

They should have targeted the car at the older, professional urban market by emphasizing the ILX's practicality: easy parking backup guides, fitting in narrow garages, good gas mileage, nice Navi, etc. That's what sold me on it.

4cruizn

October numbers are in and the ILX has dipped.

ILX Sales Since Release:

• June - 1081 units
• July - 1410 units
• August - 1733 units
• September - 1737 units
• October - 1529 units

TSX Sales Since ILX Release:

• June - 2602 units
• July - 1980 units
• August - 2103 units
• September - 1681 units
• October - 1577 units

ILX and TSX are neck & neck. ILX hybrid was 144 of the 1529 units in Oct.

rxj27

Jeez, at this rate they won't even make 1/2 of their projected sales...I wonder how much of this dip is due to end of the popular summer sales season. Either way, I just don't see any increase in sales through the winter especially with the launch of the new and improved Civic in November.

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...-november.html

dcdriver

still considering the ILX hybrid, but if the rumored TLX hybrid and the Accord hybrid are really at 45 mpg or more, then this car is nothing but a flop since there is a lot of overlap in price range, and the ILX wouldn't have the bang and buck of the Accord and TLX..

Rocket_man

Ouch! That is the lowest TSX monthly sales since Jan 2010. And that is only as far back as I could find the numbers. With the new Accord out now I'm not sure this gets much better until the TLX is released. If I were Acura I might want to hurry that along.

Colin

My gut feeling is that Acura wants to sell as few TSXs as they possibly can, while still keeping the factory busy. If they are able to "pick up the slack" in volume with the all-new Accord or the ILX, it's probably better for the corporate bottom line to do so.

rxj27

Couple of thoughts:

1. New Accord probably main reason for decrease in TSX/ILX. It's simply the best car for its value in the Honda inventory.

2. New Civic will launch at the end of the month. Some will wait and see what it offers.

3. October is a slow car selling month...

4. Not sure how many potential future ILX customers know/ will care about the new ED engine. What I mean is that I don't think many potential buyers are sitting back waiting for a reboot. Most simply move on to buy a better "value" car.

Either way still have not seen another ILX in STL!

spdandpwr

for something as new as the ilx, I wouldn't be surprised if there are people holdin' out to see if the kinks get ironed out. A lot of 1st year Acura buyers (i.e. people who bought the car on its first year of production), have been slighted because of issues prevalent in those models; hence, I think a lot of people may be on the sidelines.

rxj27

The real problem with "being on the sidelines" is:

"still considering the ILX hybrid, but if the rumored TLX hybrid and the Accord hybrid are really at 45 mpg or more, then this car is nothing but a flop since there is a lot of overlap in price range, and the ILX wouldn't have the bang and buck of the Accord and TLX.." ala dcdriver...

With the A3 sedan, Verano Turbo, and Mercedes CLA coming down the pipeline, seems to me that Acura might have missed the proverbial strike the iron while its hot time period...

spdandpwr

I'm not sure the ILX hybrid had much of a value proposition given its price and given the fact that the ct200h (lexus entry-level hybrid) is such a compelling package. The a3, I don't think will be much of a competitor as when you begin to price it out to the extent of the ilx (in terms of options), it goes well into the 30's. I feel the same way about the CLA. And, as for the buick, it is my personal belief that people will skip it in favor of a brand with more cache. Think of it this way, why would I want a buick, when for 20 dollars or so more a month, I'm in an Acura ILX, Mercedes CLA, or Audi A3.

rxj27

Completely agree with you and you bring up a good point. Acura is banking on the ILX to slot just below the A3 and CLA in terms of price...BUT taking into consideration most luxury car owners will lease their cars, the jump from the ILX to the A3 and CLA will probably be a pill that's swallow-able. Added to that the "prestige" of tier one luxury...

My only point is that once those models (I'll throw in the 1-series, IS, and even the Verano turbo!) come out the competition will be even greater. By the time Acura introduces the new ED ILX (base 2.4L engine we all speculate about) the niche might be filled...

We all know how Acura has responded to the competition in the past: "Acura is following a plan to remain a second tier luxury automaker rather than an all-out challenger to brands like BMW, Mercedes and Lexus."

They really needed to gain a firm hold on this new market before the big boys enter...

spdandpwr

I personally don't think this segment is a worthwhile one to even be in. I think Acura's win will be in convincing Civic owners to "upgrade" into a ilx. Given the ILX's lease rates relative to the Civic, I don't see that as a hard sell. At the end of the day, compelling lease rates rule all in this segment and that's where Acura wins. People look at msrp and think Acura isn't competitive, but if you look at lease rates, Acura blows the competition away.

4thaccord

While I understand your major point, if there is a car company out there that literally "wants to sell as few" of one of their models "as they possibly can", then that company shouldn't be in business. Acura is supposed to be in the business of making and selling cars.

Colin

The Accord will certainly take it's toll on ILX sales, especially for those the equate "big" with "value". Personally, I see value in a smaller car (remember: MR-2 SC, MR-2 turbo, and S2000s x2).

The Civic refresh will also 'freeze' buyers as they wait to see if they can get an ILX at Civic prices. We've seen this phenomena before, I remember in the months just before the Mini launched, RSX sales went into a tailspin. Then, after the car was out, people could make a decision and sales returned to normal.
I'm not sure you fully understand what is (most likely) in play here or if you only like the cherry pick what I said. The more TSXs they sell, the more they lose. However, if they close the line entirely, all the workers promised 'lifetime employment' during the rise of the Japanese auto industry in the 80's probably still need to be paid while producing nothing.

I'm sure its a delicate balancing act with 3 balls in the air (with the 3rd being the dealer network needing product) until they can realign the production to sell ONLY NA produced cars in NA. Faced with two bad choices, what would you do?

rxj27

Spy pictures of the Civic refresh...



Only minor exterior changes. Probably will be dramatically different interior...

http://www.edmunds.com/car-news/2013...py-photos.html

Rocket_man

Looks like the front is more Accord-like. I wonder why they put the tape along the bottom of the head lights? Could they be covering an Accord like LED strip? On a Civic???? Maybe just a reflective strip? The back looks like it will have a chrome strip connecting the taillights. This is similar treatment that they gave on the TSX MMC.

My opinion is that they can only improve the Civic. It will look more like a baby Accord. No doubt the costs won't vary much from the 2012. Not sure what this might do to the ILX sales. I still think the Civic and ILX are aimed at different consumers. Maybe a very small number will choose a Civic instead if they are trying to save a buck. But this looks good for the Civic.

neuronbob

To be honest, I think the biggest problem with the ILX is not the ILX itself, but the 2013 Honda Accord. For the price of an ILX, you can get an Accord with lane watch, and multiple other features.

I test drove an Accord Sport in September and holy crap, does it have bang for the buck. Further, it's slightly smaller in length than the outgoing model yet just as roomy inside. If I were in the market for a new sedan, I would buy an Accord. It is simply that good and represents a return of Honda's mojo. It will sell like pancakes at IHOP on a Saturday morning.

BTW, the Earth Dreams drivetrains in the Accord are awesome. I mean....really awesome. The CVT doesn't feel like what you would expect a CVT to feel like. It's actually quite tolerable. Just wait till they hit the ILX.

rxj27

But yet you bought a caddie(*drooling at your CTS)? I guess bang for the buck isn't everything when it comes to people with more unique tastes....

Bob maybe you can tell us why you didn't buy an Accord?

4thaccord

In all seriousness, I don't pay much attention to any of your words, because you're a salesman with an obvious bias. But some other people reading here may not be able to see that. Further, if a company has gotten itself into a position where you say they lose money by selling product, then what does that say about the company? "Self-sabotage", as the NY Times so eloquently put it. If you want to believe that Honda actually loses more money by selling the TSX than by not selling it, then more power to you.

Colin

I'm sure it's because the current accord that he is talking about wasn't available in 2009 when he bought his Cadillac.