thoughts on the Panny 58V10?
03-01-2010, 12:25 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
thoughts on the Panny 58V10?
I'm ready to step up to 1080p! I have a 55in Hitachi and was a great unit when I got it a couple of years back but it's only 720p.
Now I'm shopping for a comparable size but in 1080p. I'm open to LCD too but my main concern is picture quality and non-ridiculous pricing.
I'm going to be putting it in a bright room but I'll probably pick up some curtains to block the light during the day so that shouldn't be an issue.
Lots of reviews say the V10 series is good but I was hoping the gurus in here can steer me in the right direction.
Now I'm shopping for a comparable size but in 1080p. I'm open to LCD too but my main concern is picture quality and non-ridiculous pricing.
I'm going to be putting it in a bright room but I'll probably pick up some curtains to block the light during the day so that shouldn't be an issue.
Lots of reviews say the V10 series is good but I was hoping the gurus in here can steer me in the right direction.
03-01-2010, 12:28 PM
#2
Senior Moderator
Absoluetly love my G15. By all accounts the V is a big step up so I can't see you going wrong with one. In my research from last summer apparently only the Kuro's have better PQ but good luck finding one.
03-01-2010, 01:38 PM
#4
Drifting
Thread Starter
yeah, the Kuros are big money too!!!
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
03-01-2010, 03:20 PM
#5
on to the next one...
yeah, the Kuros are big money too!!!
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
My Brother just picked this up from Best Buy for $2,500 and it is absolutely beautiful.
In all honesty though, I have yet to see the specific Panny you have listed above...
03-03-2010, 09:18 PM
#6
Moderator Alumnus
yeah, the Kuros are big money too!!!
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
I've read up a little on the Samsungs but reviews seem to still point towards plasma over LEDs. And aren't the Samsungs supposed to buzz? Or is that a myth?
I like the idea of LCD/LED just because they perform better in really bright rooms. Which series of Samsungs compare to the V10s?
What I like is that it delivers a great picture while looking good. The Panasonic seem boring in comparison
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33740174.html
03-03-2010, 09:40 PM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
What I like is that it delivers a great picture while looking good. The Panasonic seem boring in comparison
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33740174.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33740174.html
I'll definitely go check out the Samsung too. Gotta wait until the end of the month though.
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03-08-2010, 01:26 PM
#8
Moderator Alumnus
Panasonic V10 is 2009, the new Panasonic v25 will be out soon. That's what you'll want to compare too.
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
Last edited by SiGGy; 03-08-2010 at 01:42 PM.
03-08-2010, 01:32 PM
#9
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
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V10 is 2009, the new Panasonic v25 will be out soon. That's what you'll want to compare too.
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "persistence of vision LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "persistence of vision LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
The high refresh rates on LCDs/LEDs are craptastic marketing points and should only ever be turned on if you are watching sports in HD...
To watch a movie or TV running 120hz or 240hz, looks like complete and utter shit.
03-08-2010, 01:40 PM
#10
Sanest Florida Man
I can't tell the difference between 60Hz and 120Hz.
Maybe I don't know what to look for but I thought 60Hz was faster than our eye could see. But I do agree that all the Hz stuff is marketing bullshit. just like Ghz, and megapixels, contrast ratio and watts, etc
Maybe I don't know what to look for but I thought 60Hz was faster than our eye could see. But I do agree that all the Hz stuff is marketing bullshit. just like Ghz, and megapixels, contrast ratio and watts, etc
03-08-2010, 01:46 PM
#11
Moderator Alumnus
You want some element of motion blur...without it things look fake. Part of Persistence of Vision is the ability of your eye to interpolate motion between frames. This includes some blur.
The high refresh rates on LCDs/LEDs are craptastic marketing points and should only ever be turned on if you are watching sports in HD...
To watch a movie or TV running 120hz or 240hz, looks like complete and utter shit.
The high refresh rates on LCDs/LEDs are craptastic marketing points and should only ever be turned on if you are watching sports in HD...
To watch a movie or TV running 120hz or 240hz, looks like complete and utter shit.
While watching a LCD panel it's actually your eyes that do the blurring because of the "sample and hold" type of technology. The TV itself isn't blurring the video.
The motion blur your talking about is actually in the video already. The video itself has motion blur.
03-08-2010, 01:50 PM
#12
The Third Ball
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Go back and watch it at 120hz.
It looks like the movie was shot on crappy HD at 120/240Hz. Completely destroys the integrity of the look.
03-08-2010, 01:51 PM
#13
Moderator Alumnus
Best way to describe LCD's problem is if you have ever been in the dark with a bright light (or even a lit cigarette) and moved it around quickly. You see trails... LCD works the same way with your eyes, each pixel is like a mini light bulb that's constantly on; thus your eyes hold on to the light and blurs it as it changes. If it was not constantly on and flashing your eyes wouldn't blur it. This is why CRT and Plasma's don't have this issue; they flash/strobe the screen all the time.
But then the side Sarlacc is talking about is called "frame interpolation". A completely different (problem) thing.
03-08-2010, 01:56 PM
#14
The Third Ball
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ya, it's a bit of marketing. But it does help fix LCD's issue with motion blurring. It's just not fixed all the way yet...
Best way to describe LCD's problem is if you have ever been in the dark with a bright light (or even a lit cigarette) and moved it around quickly. You see trails... LCD works the same way with your eyes, each pixel is like a mini light bulb that's constantly on; thus your eyes hold on to the light and blurs it as it changes. If it was not constantly on and flashing your eyes wouldn't blur it. This is why CRT and Plasma's don't have this issue; they flash/strobe the screen all the time.
But then the side Sarlacc is talking about is called "frame interpolation". A completely different (problem) thing.
Best way to describe LCD's problem is if you have ever been in the dark with a bright light (or even a lit cigarette) and moved it around quickly. You see trails... LCD works the same way with your eyes, each pixel is like a mini light bulb that's constantly on; thus your eyes hold on to the light and blurs it as it changes. If it was not constantly on and flashing your eyes wouldn't blur it. This is why CRT and Plasma's don't have this issue; they flash/strobe the screen all the time.
But then the side Sarlacc is talking about is called "frame interpolation". A completely different (problem) thing.
03-08-2010, 03:06 PM
#15
Moderator Alumnus
You have never seen trails on anything in your life? Maybe you're just lucky enough to be able to ignore them.
Try taking a laser pointer out in a **completely** dark room, move the dot in a circle against a far wall as fast as you can. You'll notice you don't see a dot anymore you actually see a full circle drawn (probably more like an oval since your circle will be sloppy).
Same problem happens with LCD panels you just don't realize it's going on. Your eyes hold on to what they see on a LCD panel; then when something on the screen moves it smears because your eyes still process the old held image.
Last edited by SiGGy; 03-08-2010 at 03:09 PM.
03-08-2010, 03:13 PM
#16
Team Owner
Try taking a laser pointer out in a **completely** dark room, move the dot in a circle against a far wall as fast as you can. You'll notice you don't see a dot anymore you actually see a full circle drawn (probably more like an oval since your circle will be sloppy).
Same problem happens with LCD panels you just don't realize it's going on. Your eyes hold on to what they see on a LCD panel; then when something on the screen moves it smears because your eyes still process the old held image.
Same problem happens with LCD panels you just don't realize it's going on. Your eyes hold on to what they see on a LCD panel; then when something on the screen moves it smears because your eyes still process the old held image.
How does changing from LCD to plasma stop my eyes from holding the image?
03-08-2010, 03:18 PM
#17
Sanest Florida Man
^So if the trails are a visual artifact caused by a defect in the human eye. How is an LCD supposed to fix that? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying?
EDIT: mike beat me to it.
EDIT: mike beat me to it.
03-08-2010, 03:25 PM
#18
Moderator Alumnus
Where as LCD uses what's called "sample and hold" it reads and then holds (i.e. is always on) the pixels until they change. They never flash, they only change when something on the screen changes.
03-08-2010, 03:30 PM
#19
Moderator Alumnus
So they do tricks to try and correct it...
*Try flashing (strobing; like a strobe light) the backlight on the LCD, so the image isn't always "ON".
*120/240 hz LCD TVs have a ton of extra video frames to work with; so they insert dark frames into the mix to give the on/off effect. You get a bright frame then a dark frame...
* LASTLY; they makeup video frames (guess) to keep the image always moving on the screen. Frame interpolation; google about it. It's also called the "Soap Opera Effect" (SOE).
example of dark frames:
Explanation of motion interpolation (SOE) making up video...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Lots of different techniques.
Last edited by SiGGy; 03-08-2010 at 03:36 PM.
03-08-2010, 03:32 PM
#20
The Third Ball
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Everyone does; it's just the way the eyes work.
You have never seen trails on anything in your life? Maybe you're just lucky enough to be able to ignore them.
Try taking a laser pointer out in a **completely** dark room, move the dot in a circle against a far wall as fast as you can. You'll notice you don't see a dot anymore you actually see a full circle drawn (probably more like an oval since your circle will be sloppy).
Same problem happens with LCD panels you just don't realize it's going on. Your eyes hold on to what they see on a LCD panel; then when something on the screen moves it smears because your eyes still process the old held image.
You have never seen trails on anything in your life? Maybe you're just lucky enough to be able to ignore them.
Try taking a laser pointer out in a **completely** dark room, move the dot in a circle against a far wall as fast as you can. You'll notice you don't see a dot anymore you actually see a full circle drawn (probably more like an oval since your circle will be sloppy).
Same problem happens with LCD panels you just don't realize it's going on. Your eyes hold on to what they see on a LCD panel; then when something on the screen moves it smears because your eyes still process the old held image.
I'm talking about on a TV screen.
03-08-2010, 03:40 PM
#22
Moderator Alumnus
Same thing though. Just easier to see with the laser pointer.
I think anyone could see it on a LCD if you had a fixed large complex pattern of thin white lines (like random sticks laying on top of one another) bouncing around the screen like the ball in pong. They'd become fuzzy and blurry.
Once you could see that and see how your brain/eye interprets it you'd start to notice it more in video. I could see noticing it easiest playing FPS games since you can control the view and exacerbate the issue whenever you wanted.
I think anyone could see it on a LCD if you had a fixed large complex pattern of thin white lines (like random sticks laying on top of one another) bouncing around the screen like the ball in pong. They'd become fuzzy and blurry.
Once you could see that and see how your brain/eye interprets it you'd start to notice it more in video. I could see noticing it easiest playing FPS games since you can control the view and exacerbate the issue whenever you wanted.
Last edited by SiGGy; 03-08-2010 at 03:44 PM.
03-10-2010, 12:03 PM
#23
Drifting
Thread Starter
Panasonic V10 is 2009, the new Panasonic v25 will be out soon. That's what you'll want to compare too.
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
Anyway, with the 2010 sets coming out, I'm sure I could get a good deal on the 2009 V10's.
04-21-2010, 07:15 PM
#25
Drifting
Thread Starter
Just an update for those who give a rats'.....I got the 58V10 last Sunday and so far so good. The picture looks great and the Viera Cast has Pandora!! However, I'm kinda disappointed with the tv's built in speakers. They don't produce lows very well. My old Hitachi plasma has way better sounding speakers. Anyhoo.....
Does anyone know how to properly break in a plasma? Is it REALLY necessary?
I'm picking up Avatar tomorrow to really see how good this set is.
Does anyone know how to properly break in a plasma? Is it REALLY necessary?
I'm picking up Avatar tomorrow to really see how good this set is.
04-21-2010, 07:45 PM
#26
Congrats man.
Meh, with the speakers.
I'm not jumping on you specifically, but I've seen so many reviews that raise hell about flat panel speakers. You shouldn't really expect much. I've had my Sammy PN50B860 for about 6 months now and I've been perfectly fine with the built in speakers. Sure I'd like to have surround sound. But I don't really have anywhere logical to put it in my place without it looking ridiculous.
If you're in that same camp, consider getting a sound bar. It's definitely not surround sound, but considerably better than the built-ins in most cases.
Meh, with the speakers.
I'm not jumping on you specifically, but I've seen so many reviews that raise hell about flat panel speakers. You shouldn't really expect much. I've had my Sammy PN50B860 for about 6 months now and I've been perfectly fine with the built in speakers. Sure I'd like to have surround sound. But I don't really have anywhere logical to put it in my place without it looking ridiculous.
If you're in that same camp, consider getting a sound bar. It's definitely not surround sound, but considerably better than the built-ins in most cases.
04-21-2010, 08:52 PM
#27
Drifting
Thread Starter
Agreed. I shouldn't have expected much but I did expect them to be on par, if not better than, my old set's speakers. Since the V series is mid to high end Panny, I mistakenly assumed they'd package better components with the tv.
I do have it connected to my 5.0 (no sub) system and it sounds just fine but I just can't turn it up very much when the wife is asleep and I'm playing MW2!!
I do have it connected to my 5.0 (no sub) system and it sounds just fine but I just can't turn it up very much when the wife is asleep and I'm playing MW2!!
. I cant wait to get a new TV, I hoping when Im ready to buy around June there will have been some price drops. I cant wait to pick up Avatar today.
05-05-2010, 02:23 PM
#29
Senior Moderator
Just an update for those who give a rats'.....I got the 58V10 last Sunday and so far so good. The picture looks great and the Viera Cast has Pandora!! However, I'm kinda disappointed with the tv's built in speakers. They don't produce lows very well. My old Hitachi plasma has way better sounding speakers. Anyhoo.....
Does anyone know how to properly break in a plasma? Is it REALLY necessary?
I'm picking up Avatar tomorrow to really see how good this set is.
Does anyone know how to properly break in a plasma? Is it REALLY necessary?
I'm picking up Avatar tomorrow to really see how good this set is.
05-05-2010, 02:48 PM
#30
Just an update for those who give a rats'.....I got the 58V10 last Sunday and so far so good. The picture looks great and the Viera Cast has Pandora!! However, I'm kinda disappointed with the tv's built in speakers. They don't produce lows very well. My old Hitachi plasma has way better sounding speakers.
The two older Hitachi plasmas we got have great sound compared to other flat panel TV's I have experienced with. My dad says the same thing. Congrats on the new set though.
05-10-2010, 04:03 PM
#31
Senior Moderator
on the newer sets, I almost feel like they purposely put in total crap speakers because they know 99% of people are going to use externals.
05-10-2010, 04:10 PM
#32
Senior Moderator
Panasonic V10 is 2009, the new Panasonic v25 will be out soon. That's what you'll want to compare too.
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
LED LCD's are bright and punchy looking to sell. They do not have accurate color or good black levels. Most people think the bright and punchy looks better in the store. But once you get it home and watch it for awhile you'll realize it's not.
It's just the marketing to the "thin is in" crowd. Not videophile.
And the only reason 120/240hz exists is to try and circumvent LCD's motion resolution short comings.
Google "sample and hold LCD". And you'll learn about why LCD has to have high refresh rates to attempt to get non-blurring motion.
This is a good article; just remember 120/240hz is there to try and fix a flaw with LCD and how you see motion. It's not there to enhance...
http://www.hemagazine.com/240Hz
Good luck and enjoy whatever it is you end up buying
thanks
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