LED TV's: Better than LCD or just thinner?
05-12-2009, 09:53 PM
#81
Drifting
05-12-2009, 11:51 PM
#82
Safety Car
05-13-2009, 11:00 AM
#83
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On fixed pixel displays like LCD/Plasma the video has to be up-converted to 1920x1080 (on a 1080p panel). Problem is the display has to make up information that's not there. And also not amplify the noise in the SD picture in a bad way.
SD viewing has gotten a lot better, although I'd suggest it on a high end plasma over LCD myself.
Checkout a G10 series (or V10 when they come out) with a SD signal. The Panasonic sets have real good noise reduction now. And don't majorly soften the image.
But yes, in the past it's been pretty bad. On average with all flat panels today SD looks like crap, especially on the mid low end LCD's. Really it depends on how much noise is in the signal...
05-13-2009, 09:21 PM
#84
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any word on when the V10 will come out, and how much more it will be over the same size G10? Will it be worth spending the extra cash on, or will the G10 be enough?
05-14-2009, 09:54 AM
#85
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I'm thinking about getting a 65" V series myself. If it's sub $4k I'll get one, which I expect it to be. I was considering getting a Kuro but if I have any problems with it, I think it'll be a headache. Knowing me I'll have an issue right when stock runs out...
I'm pretty sure the glass is the same between the G,V,Z series. But I'm not 100% certain. I need to go read some more. I think the V series will be out soon; so I'd expect to see numbers from professional calibrators soon.
I'm also trying to keep my eye out for some shootout info comparing latest Samsung Plasma's to Panasonic's. But even if it's close I'd probably still learn towards Panasonic only from a support perspective. Last year Samsungs has better color but worse blacks and shadow details. Panasonic addressed their color issues (mostly) in this series. So Samsung has to really bring it in the black levels and shadow details. Panasonic really hit a home run with the brightness of the G series; a lot of calibrators/professional reviews have all been saying it's too bright and can be turned down. So +1 for plasma compared to LCD brightness.
Haven't had the time the past few days
I do recall seeing prices in a HDGuru article though...
http://hdguru.com/panasonic-2009-pri...exclusive/395/
05-14-2009, 10:10 AM
#86
Benchwarmer
Thread Starter
What's the difference between LCD and plasma glass? I've heard complaints that plasmas are too reflective, but I've got the glossy finish on my LCD and don't mind it.
05-14-2009, 10:20 AM
#88
Benchwarmer
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05-14-2009, 10:22 AM
#89
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05-14-2009, 11:39 AM
#92
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Glossy LCDs are all very reflective; like a mirror... In my opinion a major step backwards in TV technology. It only serves one purpose, and that's to make the set look glossy (pretty and shiny) when it's off, it really serves no other purpose (well; maybe not). Yes, it does look pretty but it comes with some sacrifice in a room with sunlight or bright lights. It personally would drive me crazy, I could also never own a notebook computer with a glossy screen. It also shows there are fashion trends with TVs...
Although, I should add glossy screens don't posses the light scattering technology "matte" screens have for LCD. So technically speaking they filter less of the light coming from the panel itself giving you a brighter picture. As well glossy screens include a tint to make them have better blacks. So arguably they do have a better picture in a totally dark room. So to contradict my earlier paragraph I would purchase a glossy screen for use in the theater room (darkened) where they'll be no reflections.
In an environment with light sources I find the reflections way too distracting, I'd rather look at a slightly dimmer screen with no reflections. Anyone who has tried to use their glossy notebook with direct sunlight or with any lights behind them will know what I mean.
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yes, if you don't mind a glossy LCD you would not be bothered by a reflective plasma. But almost all plasma's today have some sort of anti-reflective coating.
Another thing to note in design (glass) differences between LCD and Plasma...Panasonic includes impact resistance in their designs.
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05-14-2009, 11:41 AM
#93
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Yes, you will probably experience some image retention. But as STL+3.0CL said there's a built in app to get rid of it.
05-14-2009, 01:37 PM
#95
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V10 isn't even listed on Panasonic's Canadian site yet.
Any one heard of the G15 and how it differs from the G10? Store I checked had a G15 listed with the same price as the 10 but didn't have any info.
Any one heard of the G15 and how it differs from the G10? Store I checked had a G15 listed with the same price as the 10 but didn't have any info.
05-14-2009, 01:39 PM
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Vanns.com has the p50v10 in stock, and on sale for $1999, no tax & free shipping 
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
Worth the extra $500?
05-14-2009, 01:43 PM
#97
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Here...
Panasonic's V10 models feature so-called 24p Cinematic Playback. Update March 13: According to Panasonic, the V10 and Z1 models will refresh at 96Hz, which should eliminate the flicker in 24p mode that we complained about last year in our reviews of the PZ800U and PZ850U models. On the other hand, the G10 and G15 lines of plasmas will refresh at 48Hz, which was the cause of the flicker we saw last year. In any case, we're looking forward to seeing for ourselves.
The other big step-up feature over the company's G10 series is Digital Cinema Color, which was featured on the PZ850U series from last year. It's designed to faithfully reproduce the Digital Cinema color space, which is wider then the Rec 709 color space of the HD standard. We prefer a color space that most closely matches the color of the original content, however, so we're pleased to see Panasonic has also added THX-display certification on the V10 series, which in our experience comes very close to Rec 709.
As you can see from the image above, the 50-inch and the 54-inch members of the series both feature the "one-pane-of-glass" design we liked so much on Panasonic and LG plasmas from last year. The larger models lack that design element, since their increased weight requires more support, according to Panasonic's rep.
The V10 models also incorporate all of the features of the step-down G10 series, including Viera Cast; the power-saving, high contrast, NEO PDP panel; "infinite black;" and the aforementioned 600Hz subfield drive. Check out our G10 series write-up for more details.
The other big step-up feature over the company's G10 series is Digital Cinema Color, which was featured on the PZ850U series from last year. It's designed to faithfully reproduce the Digital Cinema color space, which is wider then the Rec 709 color space of the HD standard. We prefer a color space that most closely matches the color of the original content, however, so we're pleased to see Panasonic has also added THX-display certification on the V10 series, which in our experience comes very close to Rec 709.
As you can see from the image above, the 50-inch and the 54-inch members of the series both feature the "one-pane-of-glass" design we liked so much on Panasonic and LG plasmas from last year. The larger models lack that design element, since their increased weight requires more support, according to Panasonic's rep.
The V10 models also incorporate all of the features of the step-down G10 series, including Viera Cast; the power-saving, high contrast, NEO PDP panel; "infinite black;" and the aforementioned 600Hz subfield drive. Check out our G10 series write-up for more details.
05-14-2009, 02:25 PM
#100
Moderator Alumnus
Vanns.com has the p50v10 in stock, and on sale for $1999, no tax & free shipping
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/it..._c=site_search
05-14-2009, 03:50 PM
#101
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It can't be brief... requires knowledge of a lot of things to really grasp why it's around. But I'll give it a stab.
24p means 24 progressive frames per second (FPS).
Film is filmed at 24 FPS. So 24P is the native 1:1 format for film (movies) in terms of frames per second.
Now there is a 1080p video mode that runs at 24 FPS. This is what 24P generally refers too (today, in the USA).
Don't confuse 24p with 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. These are all video modes. And they all run at 60 FPS (1080i arguably 30FPS)
24P solves a problem... there is no way to deliver 24 FPS from your video device to your TV without modifying the video.
The problem is when your DVD/Bluray player is outputting 60FPS (480p,720p,1080i) how do you send 24FPS? 24 does not divide into 60 evenly! I.E. your source film is at 24 FPS but your video feed is at 60FPS how do you evenly duplicate 24 frames into 60. It's mathematically not possible. This brings in the need for the 3:2 pull down.
So basically 24P means you can deliver the video to your TV at a 1:1 FPS ratio; perfect from the film source.
But there's another side to the story, that's just delivering the video to your TV.
When a marked TV says 48,72,60,120,240hz it means internally it is doing that many FPS. Regardless of source material; that's what the TV's running at.
So what your TV does with your video internally is another side to the story completely. Most TVs (unless you have a 120 or 240hz LCD, or a 48,72hz plasma) run at 60hz internally. I.E. The screen is *fixed* at 60FPS. So even if you delivered the video from your DVD player at 24p your TV will have to make 24 frames into 60. Again, it's impossible to do evenly mathematically. This is where 3:2 pull-down comes in.
So now the neat thing about 48,72,120,240hz TVs is they can display the 24P video correctly (evenly), the math works. If you divide any of those by 24 you'll see it comes out evenly with no remainder. Unlike 60hz (60 FPS).
i.e.
24fps -> 48hz (FPS) = 2;
24fps -> 120hz (FPS) = 5
...
So on a 120hz TV (LCD) you simply display the same frame 5 times in a row before switching to the next one and it will display 24P correctly.
Read up on 3:2 pull down if you want to understand how TVs or DVD players convert 24FPS to 60. Wikipedia has articles on all of this stuff.
If any of this made sense to you, it will also explain how LCD and Plasma TVs have extra duplicate frames to work with to add in their own "motion enhancements". Instead of displaying the same frame 5 times in a row on a 120hz set, the TV actually reads the current frame and the next frame. And guesses at what frames should be in between.
24p means 24 progressive frames per second (FPS).
Film is filmed at 24 FPS. So 24P is the native 1:1 format for film (movies) in terms of frames per second.
Now there is a 1080p video mode that runs at 24 FPS. This is what 24P generally refers too (today, in the USA).
Don't confuse 24p with 480p, 720p, 1080i, 1080p. These are all video modes. And they all run at 60 FPS (1080i arguably 30FPS)
24P solves a problem... there is no way to deliver 24 FPS from your video device to your TV without modifying the video.
The problem is when your DVD/Bluray player is outputting 60FPS (480p,720p,1080i) how do you send 24FPS? 24 does not divide into 60 evenly! I.E. your source film is at 24 FPS but your video feed is at 60FPS how do you evenly duplicate 24 frames into 60. It's mathematically not possible. This brings in the need for the 3:2 pull down.
So basically 24P means you can deliver the video to your TV at a 1:1 FPS ratio; perfect from the film source.
But there's another side to the story, that's just delivering the video to your TV.
When a marked TV says 48,72,60,120,240hz it means internally it is doing that many FPS. Regardless of source material; that's what the TV's running at.
So what your TV does with your video internally is another side to the story completely. Most TVs (unless you have a 120 or 240hz LCD, or a 48,72hz plasma) run at 60hz internally. I.E. The screen is *fixed* at 60FPS. So even if you delivered the video from your DVD player at 24p your TV will have to make 24 frames into 60. Again, it's impossible to do evenly mathematically. This is where 3:2 pull-down comes in.
So now the neat thing about 48,72,120,240hz TVs is they can display the 24P video correctly (evenly), the math works. If you divide any of those by 24 you'll see it comes out evenly with no remainder. Unlike 60hz (60 FPS).
i.e.
24fps -> 48hz (FPS) = 2;
24fps -> 120hz (FPS) = 5
...
So on a 120hz TV (LCD) you simply display the same frame 5 times in a row before switching to the next one and it will display 24P correctly.
Read up on 3:2 pull down if you want to understand how TVs or DVD players convert 24FPS to 60. Wikipedia has articles on all of this stuff.
If any of this made sense to you, it will also explain how LCD and Plasma TVs have extra duplicate frames to work with to add in their own "motion enhancements". Instead of displaying the same frame 5 times in a row on a 120hz set, the TV actually reads the current frame and the next frame. And guesses at what frames should be in between.
05-14-2009, 04:37 PM
#103
05-14-2009, 04:42 PM
#104
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05-14-2009, 04:44 PM
#105
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Motion blur is another issue by itself. LCD's inherently have this problem because they're a "sample and hold" type of technology. Nothing to do with the FPS.
juddering or video stuttering is what I think you are asking about. I explained this in the previous post. But I'll recap.
When your TV is fixed at 60 FPS (60hz) and you feed it a 24p (FPS) video 24 doesn't evenly divide into 60. How do you make 24 divide into 60 evenly; this is where the 3:2 pull down comes in. 60/24=2.5
120hz can display 24FPS evenly, 120/24=5;
Search for "3:2 pulldown" or telecine on wikipedia.
05-14-2009, 04:44 PM
#106
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05-14-2009, 04:51 PM
#107
I think they don't get enough credit.
They have come a long way.
Their earlier counterparts were no doubt far inferior to plasmas, but I dare they are on par if not better than some of the current plasmas. At least the Sammys.
I swear, if it had a pootay, I would make mad love to that thing all day long.
They have come a long way.
Their earlier counterparts were no doubt far inferior to plasmas, but I dare they are on par if not better than some of the current plasmas. At least the Sammys.
I swear, if it had a pootay, I would make mad love to that thing all day long.
05-14-2009, 05:01 PM
#108
Benchwarmer
Thread Starter
Did you read my post? lol
Motion blur is another issue by itself. LCD's inherently have this problem because they're a "sample and hold" type of technology. Nothing to do with the FPS.
juddering or video stuttering is what I think you are asking about. I explained this in the previous post. But I'll recap.
When your TV is fixed at 60 FPS (60hz) and you feed it a 24p (FPS) video 24 doesn't evenly divide into 60. How do you make 24 divide into 60 evenly; this is where the 3:2 pull down comes in. 60/24=2.5
120hz can display 24FPS evenly, 120/24=5;
Search for "3:2 pulldown" or telecine on wikipedia.
Motion blur is another issue by itself. LCD's inherently have this problem because they're a "sample and hold" type of technology. Nothing to do with the FPS.
juddering or video stuttering is what I think you are asking about. I explained this in the previous post. But I'll recap.
When your TV is fixed at 60 FPS (60hz) and you feed it a 24p (FPS) video 24 doesn't evenly divide into 60. How do you make 24 divide into 60 evenly; this is where the 3:2 pull down comes in. 60/24=2.5
120hz can display 24FPS evenly, 120/24=5;
Search for "3:2 pulldown" or telecine on wikipedia.
Even so, I would expect there still to be motion blur at 120 Hz because there is no new information being displayed, just the same image is being sampled and held twice instead of once.
Or maybe I'm so far off I should just quit while I'm behind.
05-14-2009, 05:02 PM
#109
Moderator Alumnus
I think they don't get enough credit.
They have come a long way.
Their earlier counterparts were no doubt far inferior to plasmas, but I dare they are on par if not better than some of the current plasmas. At least the Sammys.
I swear, if it had a pootay, I would make mad love to that thing all day long.
They have come a long way.
Their earlier counterparts were no doubt far inferior to plasmas, but I dare they are on par if not better than some of the current plasmas. At least the Sammys.
I swear, if it had a pootay, I would make mad love to that thing all day long.
But sorry, but no LCD outperforms the best plasmas all around. Just isn't the case...
Without getting into too many details, one of the major faults with LCD is side viewing. The image just starts washing out to looking like cow dung in 15 to 20 degrees left or right of center.
Don't get me wrong Plasma has it's issues as well, but really it doesn't have any huge glaring issues like LCD does.
When viewed as a whole Plasma still hands LCD it's arse.
05-14-2009, 05:05 PM
#110
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Ok seriously a really random question, but I figured I could get a quick answer on here...plus it involves me purchasing a tv so 
I'm moving to NY this Saturday. From what I've read, Amazon taxes NY customers (I'm in CA and they don't tax). How does it work? Does it tax the billing address on the CC, or where it's being shipped to? Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather not have to deal with that and possibly purchase from crutchfield/6ave or something, wherever doesn't charge NY residents.
I'm moving to NY this Saturday. From what I've read, Amazon taxes NY customers (I'm in CA and they don't tax). How does it work? Does it tax the billing address on the CC, or where it's being shipped to? Hopefully you understand where I'm coming from. I'd rather not have to deal with that and possibly purchase from crutchfield/6ave or something, wherever doesn't charge NY residents.
Last edited by Dem1K; 05-14-2009 at 05:07 PM.
05-14-2009, 05:15 PM
#111
Moderator Alumnus
I understand the math, I had thought that there should be no problem with the blur if the minimum hertz was still 2.5 cycles more than the film speed.
Even so, I would expect there still to be motion blur at 120 Hz because there is no new information being displayed, just the same image is being sampled and held twice instead of once.
Or maybe I'm so far off I should just quit while I'm behind.
Even so, I would expect there still to be motion blur at 120 Hz because there is no new information being displayed, just the same image is being sampled and held twice instead of once.
Or maybe I'm so far off I should just quit while I'm behind.
How do you display 24 FPS at 60 FPS?
A 60hz TV is going to show 60 FPS (60 pictures a second) no matter what. But your feeding it 24 FPS (pictures a second)
Let get your mind on the right track here... If your TV was running at 24hz and you displayed 24P it'd be a no brainer a 1:1 ratio. For everyone one frame it got in it would draw one on the screen. If your TV was running at 48hz and you displayed 24P it's be another no brainer 2:1 ratio. For every frame it got in it would draw 2 frames. Now your TV is running at 60hz (pictures a second) 24 doesn't go into 60 evenly. it's 2.5:1. So how do you deal with the extra frames? Draw 2.5 frames for every one you get in? That doesn't work...
.5 doesn't work. How do you display a 1/2 of a frame?
Lets break it down further...
60hz = 60 frames per second... this means every 1/60th of a second it's drawing a full picture (frame) on the screen. So there's 60 pictures displayed every 1 second.
But now I'm feeding you 24 FPS, 24 pictures a second, now it's your job being the TV to take that 24 and convert it into 60 FPS. How do you do it? how do you evenly fill up 60 slots (frames) with 24 frames? The math doesn't work out evenly.
This is why you get judder/stuttering; dealing with that uneven frame data converting it from 24 to 60.
Doing simple math, if you just simply dropped the last 4 frames and converted it to 20FPS you could just simply display 3 frames for every one received in to convert it to 60.
Still confused? I'll break it down even a little bit further.
Let pretend you had a 10Hz tv and were feeding it 5hz (5 FPS) video from your DVD player. Remember your pretending in this example the TV is 10hz (10fps) and the dvd player is running at 5 FPS. In further examples I change the DVD FPS to show examples.
Here's your 10 TV frames over one second starting with 0. Each number 0 - 9 represents 1/10 of a second and one frame of the 10hz.
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Then lets name the input (DVD) 5 frames A B C D E. So now over 1 second displaying 5 frames spread out into 10 frames to match the 10hz TV it would look like this.
2:1 ratio
Code:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A A B B C C D D E E
Now lets look at 3 FPS video on a 10hz screen.
We'll name the 3 frames A B C
3.33:1 ratio
Code:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A A A B B B C C C ?
or another example lets say were doing 4 FPS
We'll name the frames A B C D
2.5:1
Code:
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A A B B C C D D ? ?
Starting to see the problem?
05-14-2009, 05:28 PM
#113
Burning Brakes
Nice review on the Sammy 52b750 on CNET http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-t...-33490659.html
05-14-2009, 05:50 PM
#115
Moderator Alumnus
05-14-2009, 05:54 PM
#116
Moderator Alumnus
120hz? no that's cool actually. So is 240hz. But those scan rates also exist to help solve LCD's inherent motion problems. And they do work awesome for viewing 24p.
I'm not a huge fan of the motion interpolation (motion enhancements) though. In either technologies.
Pansonic plasmas listed in here scan at 600hz!
No it's...
Side viewing angles; huge issue. I don't want to own a $3-4k TV that only looks good sitting in one spot. My couch sits 8.
poor motion resolution; best LCDs display 600 lines of 1080 during high motion. Best Plasmas do all 1080 lines...
shadow details
black levels
over saturated colors (granted this can be fixed on some sets)
input lagging
I have my beefs with Plasma too, but when I weigh in the issues Plasma wins hands down.
05-14-2009, 06:04 PM
#117
120hz? no that's cool actually. So is 240hz. But those scan rates also exist to help solve LCD's inherent motion problems. And they do work awesome for viewing 24p.
I'm not a huge fan of the motion interpolation (motion enhancements) though. In either technologies.
Pansonic plasmas listed in here scan at 600hz!
No it's...
Side viewing angles; huge issue. I don't want to own a $3-4k TV that only looks good sitting in one spot.
poor motion resolution; best LCDs display 600 lines of 1080 during high motion. Best Plasmas do all 1080 lines...
shadow details
black levels
over saturated colors (granted this can be fixed on some sets)
input lagging
I'm not a huge fan of the motion interpolation (motion enhancements) though. In either technologies.
Pansonic plasmas listed in here scan at 600hz!
No it's...
Side viewing angles; huge issue. I don't want to own a $3-4k TV that only looks good sitting in one spot.
poor motion resolution; best LCDs display 600 lines of 1080 during high motion. Best Plasmas do all 1080 lines...
shadow details
black levels
over saturated colors (granted this can be fixed on some sets)
input lagging
Just kiddin.
I'm usually just one to play devil's advocate.
And I'm slightly biased. I love the Sammy LCD's.
05-14-2009, 06:48 PM
#119
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Siggy... you've been awesome. Thanks.
I think there's just one other variable for me... gaming. LCD or Plasma?
I currently own a 32" fairly cheap sammy. Can't remember the model number... it's less than a year old though. I'm happy with the TV but it was purchased originally to be used in the bedroom. Just something to watch before falling asleep. Turns out I haven't been able to make up my mind and 4 months later I still haven't bought a 50"+ for the living room which is where the majority of my TV viewing and all of my gaming is done.
I think there's just one other variable for me... gaming. LCD or Plasma?
I currently own a 32" fairly cheap sammy. Can't remember the model number... it's less than a year old though. I'm happy with the TV but it was purchased originally to be used in the bedroom. Just something to watch before falling asleep. Turns out I haven't been able to make up my mind and 4 months later I still haven't bought a 50"+ for the living room which is where the majority of my TV viewing and all of my gaming is done.