swami

In regards to the photos comparing the Sammy 7100 series to the G10, I believe Chris at Cleveland Plasma who posted these, said the photos weren't really indicative of what he was seeing. He felt the Sammy had a better picture and I'd have to agree. It depends on what you watch IMO. I watch alot of sports and prefer the LCD for the brighter picture and overall crispiness. If I watched alot of movies in a dark room, I'd opt for the duller more film like picture that a plasma displays.

Anhedonia

ill stick with my 120 lb CRT. I swear tube will always have the best picture.

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

I'm looking to buy myself a new tv within the next few weeks for my apartment (between 46-52"), and until today, was only considering LCD (specifically Sammy 650/750/850 series). But I've seen some of the newer plasmas out, Sammy's included, and they looked just as great, and seemed cheaper? What gives? Also any idea on how the Sammy plasmas are? I'm trying to stick around $1500-2000, so any input would be appreciated

swami

Check out the new Sammy B750 series LCD's. I believe the 52 retails for $2399 and Amazon has some great deals on these. These are 240hz and a little thicker than the 6 and 7000 tv's. The early reports are these have very few issues in comparison to the LED models.

svtmike

Find a good optometrist.

TS_eXpeed

SiGGy

They do.... hands down. But they need to be calibrated and up kept well to have a pristine picture.

Even not using the CRT TV it'll drift out of focus. If you've ever listened too a high-end direct view CRTs display they actually degauss themselves (loud odd noise they make) on start up to negate any magnetic effects from the earth and or other nearby electromagnetic fields. Earth's magnetic field slowly drifts over time.... This is what keeps CRT slowly going out of adjustment.

CRTs do best motion, color, black levels, contrast, sub contrast (shadow details), grey scale .... it's color and sub-contrast that give that "3d" look when even viewing even STD DEF TV. LCDs just don't do it.. and even when LCDs do have good color as soon as you move away from directly in front of the LCD it'll completely change your color/contrast/sub contrast. Sure you can see an image 150 degrees on a LCD but it only looks correct from one sitting location.

The 9" front projection CRT units are unreal if you have ever seen on setup correctly. The image is like no other projector.

And the professional series direct view Sony Trinitron CRTs are of the highest quality displays you can buy. Makes the best plasma look bad, and plasma makes LCD look bad. Just too many flaws in the LCDs; and major ones at that.

CRT is still the defacto standard to measure by... Pioneer came close with the Kuro plasmas but didn't quite hit it. I think Panasonic will come real close next year though. But their new 10th gen Plasmas are awesome.

The problem is most people remember their out of focus, old crappy CRT... Those are the same people who rush out and buy LCD panels and think they are the best thing... they probably also think Plasmas suffer burn-in still and that they have to recharge the gas....

OLED will be replacing LCD (thankfully) sooner than later...

is300eater

I dunno man... I'm not disagreeing with you, but all I know is... I got to see one of those LED series the other day in person, I guess my eyes were "tricked" because it look pretty damn good to me

SiGGy

Yes they are, I just edited them for easier side by side.

Depends on what you watch? no.

Shadow detail the Samsung loses.
Black levels the Samsung was better, but at a cost of shadow detail. So what's the point.
Color accuracy on the Panasonic was better
Side viewing the Panasonic was better
Motion resolution the Panasonic is better (which is way better for sports)

Chris wants to sell the TVs. The pics themselves say a lot.

Not to mention that Samsung will only look "good" in a narrow field of view of directly in front of it.

Both TVs have the same resolution; the only sharpness difference is the LCD's unnatural square pixels vs the plasmas natural round pixels. LCD to me is like a girl that's good from far, but far from good. Besides sheer brightness it really doesn't do anything very good; unless you can afford a professional series LCD the consumer stuff is just lackluster....

SiGGy

Sure, it's bright from the LED lights and sharp from the square pixels. It's marketed to draw your eye to it; they set the default factory mode to make it look poppy on the show room floor.

But when you side by side for details /w a good plasma is where it'll lose out. In the store you see bright poppy pictures and your eye is attracted to it. Unless you have a trained eye, you wont see the crushed shadow details, exaggerated blue/greens. Flashlight effects from the LCD, and then watch the image get completely crushed/washed out as you walk to the side and view the LCD, or below the LCD for that matter. Then last but not least motion resolution.

I doubt you have ever seen a high end calibrated CRT system, be it direct view or front projection. If so you'd know what I'm talking about. CRTs are still used as the defacto standard in high end production because of their accuracy.

Really good CRTs displays had such excellent detailed images they could appear 3d and have depth to them. Even the Kuro plasma can pull this off.

Consumer LCDs have a lot of marketing driving them, not super high quality...

Every year there's a new gimmick to sell them... Mostly trying to fix another flaw in the technology. LCD is a technology in puberty, Plasma and CRT are way more mature.

I think a lot of people liking the square pixels of LCD has more to do with time spent on the computer. People are use to how square pixel'd LCDs look; and naturally people are attracted to what's normal or familiar to them. And the sheer brightness of the LCD is just like a shiny lure is to bass fishing...

It'll be interesting to see if the same thing happens with audio over time, if people will start to like the harsher sound of mp3 over the original CD just because it's what they're use too. I *really* do hope some sort of lossless audio codec becomes the new standard and MP3's loose their charm... Slowly but steadily were becoming a nation of quantity over quality IMO. Been happening over many years... (just look around American: cars, music, food, ... , you'll see it) Hopefully we start down a new path sooner than later.

While I don't doubt LCD could be excellent one day, OLED will be out before that happens and LCD will be on the way out the door. Granted OLED will have some growing pains itself...

imj0257

iTrader: (1)

A friend of mine got one of these Samsung LED tvs about a week ago. I went to his place to watch some bball and honestly IMO the picure looks just as good as my other friend's Samsung LCD tv. But it was really thin like 1-2 inches

SiGGy

Samsung has had LED sets out for awhile now (2 years). They are just doing a play on the marketing... granted they did introduce side LED lighting.

So it's possible they do look very similar.


There's 3 different types of LED backlights:

Side light (thinner displays) like the new one
local dimming (lots of LED lights setup in a grid behind the entire display) each light can be controlled individually.
local dimming colored (same thing but using colored LEDs to enhance color)

TS_eXpeed

So you know if the Samsung 9's are the second or third by chance?

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

Siggy, do you mind giving me your input on my question? I would love to hear your opinion on what few sets I should be looking into, and where to buy from. I wanted to buy from amazon, but since I'm shipping this out to NY, apparently they charge tax to NY residents :|

SiGGy

Nothing gives, really. If your going to do plasma you'll want a Panasonic or a Pioneer (5020; discontinued what's left of stock is all that's left). LCD is very popular, but being popular doesn't make it better. Plasma got a bit of a bad rep originally due to screen burn problems, but that is a thing of the past really. Not an issue anymore, although you'll want to watch primarily full screen video for the 1st 150-200 hours as the screen breaks in. You'll also find people who think plasmas need to be recharged (the gas).... Most people just honestly don't understand plasma.

Fact is Pioneer set the benchmark for flat screen picture quality; all other screeens are compared to it. Even Panasonic is a bit behind with their plasmas in this generation. LCD is still not quite to even the Panasonic level.

Like with anything it's different strokes for different folks. Your going to find people who would choose a Corvette if you offered them a Enzo Ferrari or a Corvette for free. There's also the pure fanboy's on both sides of the fence...

From a sheer I want the best image I can get; top plasma's win all around. If you want to show off a bright, poppy, synthetic motion enhanced picture that only looks good (poppy) directly from the front get a LCD. Honestly you'll end up turning the LCD brightness down once you get it home. A lot of people forget about the huge bright lights the stores have, and how they don't have those at home.

With today's LCD tech, I lean towards plasma...

Do some reading on the Panasonic TC-P50G10 or even the V10 series but it might be out of your price range.

Also while shopping totally ignore any of the BS contrast ratios you read for the LCD panels, they're not legit. But that's what you get when you have no standards for how that stuff has to be measured. Look for reviews done by calibrators online to get real numbers for the panel your interested in.

SiGGy

2nd I believe. I don't know if Samsung has introduced a LCD line with the 3rd option. I'm pretty sure Sony has though.

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

And any word on the Samsung plasmas? How do those stack up against say the G10/V10?

BTW, thanks Siggy

SiGGy

Samsung doesn't seem to quite match up (especially in black levels and shadow details). Also if you read complaints and issues on the Samsung plasmas's they don't give you the warm and fuzzy feeling you want spending that much $$. I haven't followed them to this years releases. With Pioneer almost out of the Plasmas game, Panasonic is the next top dog. Word has it Panasonic bought Pioneers tech from them, so I expect to see killer panels late this year or next year.


Also know that OLED panels will start rolling off assembly lines next year!

NP

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

I just finished reading a couple reviews on the '09 P50G10, and Amazon has it for $1503, free shipping (but they tax NY), and Crutchfield has it for $1599 with Free White Glove Shipping, but not sure what the tax situation is with them. Now if it's as good as you and all these reviews say, for $1600, that's about $400 cheaper than say the Sammy B750 LCD that I'm looking at, which is a 46". So you've definitely got me intrigued at the moment, haha

BTW vanns.com has it for $1499, woot

svtmike

Professional grade CRTs may be the "de facto standard" for image quality, but for consumers they are pretty much extinct. I've never seen a consumer grade CRT that can stand up to the top flat panel displays (LCD or plasma) for all image quality parameters: sharpness, lack of distortion, brightness, contrast. They usually fall noticably short on the first two, especially as they grow larger.

Add that to the fact that they are monstrously heavy and bulky, and they just don't provide a worthwhile value proposition for 99.9999999999% of consumers.

swami

It seems to me that Plasma is on it's way out like it or not. My next TV will be another Sammy LCD. It's a Ford vs Chevy vs whatever argument without a unanimous winner. There are proponents of both technologies that will argue for days as to which is better. As far as OLED goes, yeah they may be coming out in larger sizes next year but you can be sure they'll be incredibly expensive.

dom

New 09 model Sammy's seem to be getting great word of mouth. Fairly priced as well. I was planning on getting another Sammy LCD but I'm not so sure anymore.

TS_eXpeed

Do eeeeeet.
You know you ed at the pic quality at least a couple of times.

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

Just came back from scoping out more tv's for like the 6th day in a row hahaha. The only place that had the G10 in stock, and set up was my local Best Buy. Definitely a great looking set, and at the prices online, it's a great deal. I'm just not sure if I like it better than say a A650/750/860 or B650 (all in the $1500-$2000 range). Ugh I dunno what to do.

Sarlacc

true

The last two Sony XBR tubes...the 40" 4:3 and the 32" 16:9 Were amazing sets that can still rival the current TVs on sale. Only problem was they only did 720p/1080i.

Largest pro-crt now is a 23" Sony. And I'm not sure they make them anymore. They are rented whenever I use them.

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

looks like the new Sammy PN50B650 is going to be about $1500 from amazon when it comes out next week, and it's a beautiful looking set. I just wanna know how it performs.

dom

Keep us posted. I was surprised at the relative low cost of the B550/650 Plasma's. Even a 50" B850 is somewhat affordable. Of course I'm interested in how they compare to their LCD counterparts.

A 50" B850 plasma is about $500 cheaper than the new 52" B750 LCD. Which is better?

SiGGy

Really you should be comparing Panasonic Plasma to Samsung LCD. Samsung has really never been at the top of the line Plasmas. Only Panasonic and Pioneer are in this court.

I wouldn't even include a Samsung plasma in my lookings.

dom

From what I've been reading at the avsforums (granted there is a lot to read and differing opinions) the new Sammy plasma's are apparently now up to par with Panny at least.

What are your thoughts on the 50" Panny S1?

Better than a Sammy 750 LCD? Its priced well below a 52' 750. (I think I know the answer already )

SiGGy

Werd, the trinitron tubes were stellar. Even the 4:3 Trinitrons looked amazing.

I also owned a few computer monitors with Sony trinitron tubes.

Again, people only seem to remember what their out of the box father tweaked RCA or JVC tube TV looked like. Or an old never maintained rear projector.

I mean this is a shot from a fully calibrated rear projector CRT (yes, huge ass 60" RPTV that's 2 feet thick). Most of which people relate to being dim,fuzzy and out of focus at the edges, lol. Of course LCD people probably think it isn't punchy (over saturated) enough looking. Since LCDs tend to be over saturated. But the shadow detail is amazing. If this was a direct view set it would be even better. Granted this pic was taken with a 8 year old camera.

SiGGy

No clue on the 750; I'm not too familiar with that model. (Honestly; your not going to find a LCD that hands a high end Plasma it's arse; and going back in LCD models won't help the decision either )

I have yet to see a Samsung plasma perform like even a G10 Panasonic (or Pioneer Kuro). Really two different leagues. This is going from professional benchmarks and calibrations; and personal viewing. And then also going on Samsungs past plasma history; I wouldn't be too keen on purchasing one (not too good). They have never been on the cutting edge of Plasma really.

The G10 or V10 series are the plasmas to have this round (unless you want to spend more); or go buy what's left of the Pioneer Kuro stock; there's some good deals on them if you look around.

S1 series is good, I'd choose a G10 over a S1. If you google the two you'll see they differ quite a bit in terms of inputs.

I'm still waiting to see a V10 and read up more on it... Although the V10 is significantly higher in price than the G10 series.

Seems lot of you are Brand shopping (which is cool), as you keep going back to the Samsung brand. Samsung does make some of the best LCDs but Plasma is not their forte.

svtmike

The highlights are totally blown.

I keep my LCDs and Plasma TV at the least saturated ("Movie") setting because the over-saturated look is really bad. I have to admit I'm not much of a videophile; when I'm watching a movie, I'm not scrutinizing the picture for shadow detail. My main TV is an LED-backed Samsung LCD and for me the picture is phenomenal and the form factor is very convenient. It does have halos around white-on-black titles but I really don't care. The picture overall is far better than the cold cathode-lit LCDs.

For me there's nothing about CRTs that makes me nostalgic for them. The flat panel displays are just plain easier to live with.

dom

The G10 isn't an expensive as I thought.

Haven't been able to find a retailer that carries the G10 up here. But Panny's website says the MSRP of the 50" is $2699. An A750 52" Sammy LCD is also $2699. So you definitely recommend the Panny?

IlliNorge

I think you need to view them first. The CRT picture posted here looks washed out, and in my opinion, plasmas showing movies look almost devoid of color compared to a high end LCD. If you're like me, maybe you don't want pure realism while you're watching sports.

I think Panny plasma vs. Sammy LCD is the right comparison though.

SiGGy

It is, that pic was taken with a 8 year old 1-2MP CCD camera Definitely over-exposed.

And LCDs are a bit over saturated (i.e. punchy; too much color). Definitely not natural colors out of the box. They are tuned that way to draw your eye to it in the store; not for accuracy. ... it's for sales & marketing... But this comes at a sacrifice of accurate color and shadow details/subcontrast. LCD color can be tuned very good, but shadow details still aren't at plasma levels. And of course, you have to be sitting directly in front of them... move the side and LCD's just wash out.

Another thing to know especially for sports viewing is the best LCD's can only resolve about 600-700 lines of the 1080 during high motion.

The Panasonic plasma's I mentioned can resolve all 1080 during high motion. And the Pioneer Kuros are in the 800+ range.

Is this a better pic? Don't forget these are CRT REAR PROJECTION TVs. NOT direct view... direct view would look even better. Also it's real hard to take pics of RPTVs, the screen is not a "screen" it's actually a large Fresnel lens.



or (little too much exposure on this shot)



or
Don't forget how old this cartoon is! And it's not HD! Look at all of the shadow details, and how smooth it is.


But this stuff is dead, just showing for reference... Just trying to show that CRT was very high quality when done right... Wish I had some shots of a professional series direct view CRT. Moving to flat TVs was a trend; now they are trying to bring the quality up on them to where CRT left off.

IlliNorge

I actually prefer oversaturation of color to a small degree.

I will admit that as I view this thread on my old CRT monitor there are advantages over a mediocre LCD. And if I noticed motion blur on my 4665 it would be a dealbreaker.

I should also point out that my calibration settings are far from avsforum's preferred settings for my set. I dial up the sharpness and color and employ the artificial contrast gimmicks.

And finally I have never seen a professionally calibrated Pioneer or Panny plasma in person.

SiGGy

Ya, I shoot for near 6500k whites /w best color map possible myself. But everyone has a different preferences. A lot of it has to do with environment and what your use to viewing over the years. My father tends to like his screen leaning towards the greenish hue on skintones. He also likes to use the fisheye zoom feature for 4:3 material. Both things drive me crazy, but I don't say anything. As it sorta takes a bit away from his manhood. To him this is the way the image should look.

I think you'll start to notice motion resolution more on your panel once OLED becomes mainstream and your eye gets accustomed to looking at OLED motion from either friends owning it or store demos. You'll absolutely love color on OLED if you like it a bit over saturated, you'll be able to do that and still have killer shadow details/subcontrast and blacks.

LCD has no advantages (image quality) over a good professional series CRT besides it's fixed square pixels that look sharper... Really it's the same with Plasma too. (today anyway, hopefully the future brings us better stuff)

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

I'm SORTA brand shopping. Basically, I want the best set that I can buy in the $1500-2000 range, and all I keep hearing is either get a Sony or Samsung for LCD, or Panasonic for plasma (in the price range). But I ALSO am particular with the design of the TV as well, and I highly prefer the look of Samsung TV's over all others at the moment. Which, is why I wanted to throw the Samsung Plasmas in the mix. And to be honest, I've seen a couple of their plasmas in person, and they look pretty damn good. That's why I'm trying to see if they're a worthy competitor to the Panasonic plasmas that are out.

Oh, I forgot to mention that the Best Buy that I was at yesterday had a floor model, Open Box return (apparently sent in from service) Pioneer 5020 for $1899. Really tempted, but the fact that it came from service scared me, so I backed off. Also is it just me, or is the design of the 5020 kinda meh? I guess I don't really like the look of the speakers on the bottom. But what a fantastic picture! I mean, my gf's mom has a high end 65" Pioneer, and her sister has the Elite, so I've been around Pioneer's and have seen how fantastic they are

SiGGy

HDGuru has an interesting article on their homepage (I"ll direct link it though)....

http://hdguru.com/is-plasma-dead-sam...lg-answer/422/


p.s.
There's also links to a 50" G10 panasonic review and Samsung (plasma and LCD) on the right hand side


here's a link to the G10 review

http://hdguru.com/panasonic-tcp50g10...ma-review/416/

Dem1K

iTrader: (1)

Nice

However I've read that they're coming out with a 54" this month? I wonder what that will be priced at? Also do you know if Memorials Day yields any good sales on HDTVs? I might just wait for that weekend to order it, although I'm getting VERY antsy haha