scuc

Hope this is in the right section...

I just moved into a new apt and the building's really old. All of the outlets in our place were two prong and we asked the building manager if it was possible to change them out to three prong outlets. So he came over and changed them out, but I noticed that the three prong outlets had a grounding screw on the side, but since the building's old there was no grounding wire (I guess). Sorry for the long post, but the bottom line is he didn't ground the new outlets, and I was wondering if there was any danger in that? Could I short out any of my things?

moeronn

How old is the place? Did you use a tester to see if the outlets are grounded?

My place was built in the late 60's and there is no ground wire - the conduit is the ground, so things are grounded.

scuc

No idea how old it is. I have no idea how to test if its grounded, and I'm pretty sure I don't have anything to check it with. Sorry if this is a stupid question, but what's the conduit?

moeronn

Back in the days before romex, they ran the wires inside flexible metal "tubing" to contain the wires and heat.

The best way to test it would be to buy one from a local hardware/electical store.

You can try something like this:
http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?actio...7894-41813-P-1

There's also a single outlet tester, but I couldn't find it quickly on the lowes site.

Hopefully scottman can give some more/better info.

2001AudiS4

I am going to guess that the outlet box is metal. If thats the case, then I am also guessing that the wire run is BX cable, which is what moeronn is talking about. The BX cable is clamped into the box, which acts as the grounding. When you screw in the outlet, the metal contacts acts as your ground. I hate working with BX cable and metal boxes, they can be such a pain in the ass.

scuc

Thanks guys. I'm gonna see if I can pick up one of those outlet testers. I'll try to take some pics so you guys can see what the outlets look like. I really appreciate you guys trying to help out.

JLatimer

After you pick up the tester and find out that there likely is no ground... There is no danger that you will short out your things, but there is the danger that if they short out it will hurt you.
For example... A PC enclosure connects to ground when plugged in. If there is a short and a hot wire comes into contact with the case the short will cause a breaker to trip. In your case it will not trip the breaker, but will energise the case so that when you touch it you are electrocuted.

Bottom line is you should either have 2prong outlets, or he should add a ground wire, or he should add GFCI outlets.

scuc

^uhhhh, I don't wanna die....

If I have a surge protector, would it help avoid that?

JLatimer

Nope. Ground adds safety and you cant add ground without a ground wire. Putting in GFCI outlets will trip the built in breaker with the slightest fault detection. That way when you get electrocuted it is only for a fraction of a second .

In any case, test the circuits to see if they are grounded. If they arent you will need to work with your landlord... What he did is very bad.

phipark

Surge protector is worthless without a ground. That's where they route the surges, through the ground.

scuc

Ok, well I got some shitty pics with my camera phone, but I think what 2001AudiS4 said is the case at my place. The outlet box is metal, which would act as the ground, right? Did I get that wrong?

Zippee

That is a 2 prong ungrounded outlet.

scuc

That's a pic of the old outlets we have at the place, not the replacement 3-prong.

edit: my bad, I missed the "ungrounded" part. So basically I'm screwed?

moeronn

The only way to be sure is to buy a tester. However, look where the wires come into the box. Is there some kind of threaded nut there? If so, there is a better chance of this being grounded. If not, then it is unlikely to be grounded.

Again, get a tester to verify.

JLatimer

Looking at that pic I am willing to put money down that there is no ground...

That is some scary wiring that was done sometime in between the world wars.

MR1

OK just trying to learn here. There are millions of houses constructed pre (new safe wiring) code in North America. They mostly have that type of wiring or worse. I know that occassionally a short will spark and burn the house down. The same thing happens with newer houses that are built to code but somebody did a poor job.

What is the real risk in having the old wiring? When these houses are sold there is no requirement that they be rewired. As long as the circuits are not overloaded and you don't play in the tub with the plugged in radio, what's the harm? I only kind of understand this three vs two prong thing, thanks.

JLatimer

^^^

Actually you are right there is little problem with the old wiring relating to fire risk. That wiring done pre-code has lasted for decades, and properly used will last for decades more without a risk of fire. Insurance co's will disagree, but ask nearly any electrician and they will deem the wiring safe when left alone. I had to rip out perfectly good old wiring in my old home to appease the insurance co.

So what is unsafe?
1. Plugging devices with a ground into an outlet that is not grounded presents an electrocution risk. 2-wire devices have protections built in to reduce the risk of electrocution to the user. 3-wire devices depend on a reliable ground to offer that user safety.
2. Homeowner modifications to that old wiring presents a risk. Someone with limited understanding of new and old wiring can create a patch job that creates a fire risk or user risk.
3. That old wiring insulation becomes brittle - more brittle than the newer insulations will. Left untouched there is no risk, but over time with remove and replace like the photo above can cause gaps in the insulation.

I called that wiring scary - but that is just because it is different than today's standards. In some ways today's standards might be less safe. For example - old wiring used fuses, new wiring uses breakers. I have personally shorted out an outlet for a 1 second duration - it was a nice light show. The breaker did not trip - a fuse would have blown for sure. In that case the fuse would have been safer, but less convenient.

MR1

Yikes, I think I prefer a house fire to being electrocuted. This is not something that really happens all that often.

My house was originally constructed in the early 1950's and has mostly ungrounded two prong outlets. We have upgraded a few outlets to accept three prong plugs. How have we increased our risk overusing two/ three converter adaptors? Would I be better of using ungrounded GFCI outlets? A few thousand dollar rewire is out of the question. Again, there are millions of houses in the same or worse shape than mine.

Sorry if this looks like a hijack. I think it is on point. Thanks for the information.

2001AudiS4

Like I mentioned earlier, just because there are only two wires does not necessarily mean the outlet is not grounded. If wired properly with BX cable then the metal ribbed shield of the BX cable will ground the outlet. When you screw in the outlet to the metal box, you complete the ground. It really depends on how the house is wired, not just how many wires are there.

MR1

Thanks again. Guess I'll assume that what has been OK will be OK. That is unless changes are indicated.

svtmike

To the OP:

Since grounded plugs are more and more common though, it seems that it would make sense to determine if you do have grounded wiring as 2001AudiS4 describes.

The basic outlet tester and a grounded outlet would tell you that. Make sure you have a good ground from the outlet frame contacting the box or make a connection from the ground lug on the outlet to the box.

scuc

so I finally got around to getting a tester and fortuntely it showed that the outlets are grounded. We went ahead and changed the remaining outlets and tested those as well. Thanks to everyone for all their help . It's much appreciated.

Scottman111

Sorry guys, I haven't checked H & G in forever. If anyone has any other questions that you are confused about just ask.