The New Green Dishwashers
03-09-2013, 02:15 AM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The New Green Dishwashers
Our 16 year old Maytag still worked fine, but was loud -- and the female unit wanted all new stainless appliances. 
Jan 2012 the new green regs went into effect for dishwashers; which generated a litany of complaints about smells, failures and unclean dishes. Many complaints start with "My 15 year old (insert any brand) never gave me any trouble like this $1000 machine!"
The new green dishwashers use very little water, and run VERY long cycles.
Our top priority was quiet and I had our choices narrowed to:
The Bosch 300 line, SHE43RL5UC. 48dBA. It has no lower tub heating element and utilizes convection for drying. Bosch has a looong and storied history of horrendous smells, but nearly all of the odor problems seem to come from ass-wipe installation errors: drain line hooked to the sewer side of trap, drain line kinked, no high loop in drain line etc. (and this from pro installers). The remainder of odor problems come from ass-wipe owners who fail to understand that Bosch uses no food grinder and fail to clean the filter often.
The LG LDS5540ST. Also 48dBA. It utilizes the same convection drying system, but has a food grinder. It offers more wash options. The racks are the best I've seen. Every row of tines folds, for outstanding configuration changes. But many owners complained that the tines would not stay snapped up, and the lower rack allowed plates to crash together.
The Samsung DMT800RHS. 49dBA. This is a very highly rated dishwasher with a concealed lower heater (to protect plastics) and convection drying. It has a food grinder and numerous wash options, including a Quick Wash. The racks are fairly well thought out. Despite rave reviews this machine has an Achilles heel in the motherboard. Consumers are furious about motherboard failures and that was enough to rule it out.
So I bought and installed the Bosch SHE43RL5UC. I secured the drain line to the rear of the unit with conduit hanger (prevent kinks) and looped it up behind the unit then looped it to a high loop under the sink and hooked it to the disposal. We have soft water, so I'm using about half the recommended detergent and the dishes come out stunningly clean, despite hard deposits and no prep at all.
The only decent cycle option on the Bosch is Auto, which uses sensors to wash/rinse and it typically takes 90 minutes. There is no short wash or rinse option.
The Bosch racks are annoyingly inflexible "You vill load ze German way und you vill like it" which makes it smaller than the old Maytag by a pot or two.
The convection dry works remarkably well, provided you let it finish. Complaints about wet dishes are from owners who open the door and interrupt convection.
There is no food grinder. Most stuff is emulsified and the rest catches in the filter. I rinse the filter every other day or so and we have had perfectly clean, fresh smell in the unit.
It is very quiet. One can converse in normal tones standing right beside it, and from 10 feet away it cannot be heard. Quiet is Bosch's long-time rep.
Bosch and many other brands now use bitumen coating for insulation. This is basically Dynamat type asphalt matting and many brands give off a tar smell when hot. For the first 10 washes there has been a detectable tar smell, which has not been intolerable, but I'm glad that it is fading.
I have my doubts that any of these complex, green appliances will last as long as the noisy old soldiers they are replacing, but that remains to be seen.
Weighing all, we are pleased with the Bosch. But like all things German, it is NOT for those who cannot or will not follow directions.
Jan 2012 the new green regs went into effect for dishwashers; which generated a litany of complaints about smells, failures and unclean dishes. Many complaints start with "My 15 year old (insert any brand) never gave me any trouble like this $1000 machine!"
The new green dishwashers use very little water, and run VERY long cycles.
Our top priority was quiet and I had our choices narrowed to:
The Bosch 300 line, SHE43RL5UC. 48dBA. It has no lower tub heating element and utilizes convection for drying. Bosch has a looong and storied history of horrendous smells, but nearly all of the odor problems seem to come from ass-wipe installation errors: drain line hooked to the sewer side of trap, drain line kinked, no high loop in drain line etc. (and this from pro installers). The remainder of odor problems come from ass-wipe owners who fail to understand that Bosch uses no food grinder and fail to clean the filter often.
The LG LDS5540ST. Also 48dBA. It utilizes the same convection drying system, but has a food grinder. It offers more wash options. The racks are the best I've seen. Every row of tines folds, for outstanding configuration changes. But many owners complained that the tines would not stay snapped up, and the lower rack allowed plates to crash together.
The Samsung DMT800RHS. 49dBA. This is a very highly rated dishwasher with a concealed lower heater (to protect plastics) and convection drying. It has a food grinder and numerous wash options, including a Quick Wash. The racks are fairly well thought out. Despite rave reviews this machine has an Achilles heel in the motherboard. Consumers are furious about motherboard failures and that was enough to rule it out.
So I bought and installed the Bosch SHE43RL5UC. I secured the drain line to the rear of the unit with conduit hanger (prevent kinks) and looped it up behind the unit then looped it to a high loop under the sink and hooked it to the disposal. We have soft water, so I'm using about half the recommended detergent and the dishes come out stunningly clean, despite hard deposits and no prep at all.
The only decent cycle option on the Bosch is Auto, which uses sensors to wash/rinse and it typically takes 90 minutes. There is no short wash or rinse option.
The Bosch racks are annoyingly inflexible "You vill load ze German way und you vill like it" which makes it smaller than the old Maytag by a pot or two.
The convection dry works remarkably well, provided you let it finish. Complaints about wet dishes are from owners who open the door and interrupt convection.
There is no food grinder. Most stuff is emulsified and the rest catches in the filter. I rinse the filter every other day or so and we have had perfectly clean, fresh smell in the unit.
It is very quiet. One can converse in normal tones standing right beside it, and from 10 feet away it cannot be heard. Quiet is Bosch's long-time rep.
Bosch and many other brands now use bitumen coating for insulation. This is basically Dynamat type asphalt matting and many brands give off a tar smell when hot. For the first 10 washes there has been a detectable tar smell, which has not been intolerable, but I'm glad that it is fading.
I have my doubts that any of these complex, green appliances will last as long as the noisy old soldiers they are replacing, but that remains to be seen.
Weighing all, we are pleased with the Bosch. But like all things German, it is NOT for those who cannot or will not follow directions.
Last edited by XLR8R; 03-09-2013 at 02:26 AM.
The following 2 users liked this post by XLR8R:
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03-11-2013, 08:37 AM
#2
we just recently renovated our kitchen (my kitchen thread) and i am also shocked at how the newer models of dishwashers use such less water... i remember that my old dishwasher used to run shorter cycles, but it would use more water... it would drain at least 5+ times... my new one only uses ~3 gallons of water but runs for longer cycles...
03-11-2013, 12:00 PM
#4
Team Owner
When we bought a new dishwasher last year, we crossed the Bosch off of our list because of the likelihood that the filter would be forgotten. We ended up with a KitchenAid with a grinder. I think it is this one or last year's equivalent:
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
03-11-2013, 12:05 PM
#5
Team Owner
I'm surprised they still sell dishwashers without a grinder. I could understand not having it on low end but Bosch is pricey stuff. Even my POS GE has one.
03-11-2013, 12:07 PM
#6
Senior Moderator
When we bought a new dishwasher last year, we crossed the Bosch off of our list because of the likelihood that the filter would be forgotten. We ended up with a KitchenAid with a grinder. I think it is this one or last year's equivalent:
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
03-11-2013, 02:27 PM
#7
The sizzle in the Steak
When we bought a new dishwasher last year, we crossed the Bosch off of our list because of the likelihood that the filter would be forgotten. We ended up with a KitchenAid with a grinder. I think it is this one or last year's equivalent:
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
KitchenAid with grinder FTW.
Why anyone would buy a new dishwasher without one is beyond me.
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03-11-2013, 09:21 PM
#8
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by doopstr
I'm surprised they still sell dishwashers without a grinder. I could understand not having it on low end but Bosch is pricey stuff.
Originally Posted by svtmike
When we bought a new dishwasher last year, we crossed the Bosch off of our list because of the likelihood that the filter would be forgotten. We ended up with a KitchenAid with a grinder. I think it is this one or last year's equivalent:
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
http://www.kitchenaid.com/flash.cmd?...ct/KUDS30IXSS/
Comparing the Bosch SHE43R to the KitchenAid KUDS3 looks like this:
Sound level: Bosch 48 dBA, KA 49dBA
Yearly operating cost: Bosch $27, KA $31
Yearly electricity kWh: Bosch 259, KA 288
Price (from hh gregg): Bosch $719, KA $764
So Bosch squeaks by just enough to be ranked higher in searches and on data charts, but the slight Bosch advantage would likely not be enough to sway anyone inclined to one or the other for personal reasons. But the Bosch-y-ness requires a more involved user than the KA.
Perusing the reviews makes me fear for our country though.
Most common Bosch complaint: The end-of-cycle chime wakes them up after bedtime. The chime level can be adjusted or turned off very readily. It's in the manual.
Most common KitchenAid complaint: Brushing against the machine turns it on. The childlock for the buttons can be activated very readily. It's in the manual.
03-11-2013, 11:51 PM
#9
Safety Car
We recently got a Fisher & Paykel Dish Drawer. It uses like two gallons of water and the standard cycle is 124 minuets. Amazing how well it washes.
03-12-2013, 12:16 AM
#10
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The KitchenAid KUDS30IXSS made it into my top 5, but I rejected it when reading of the widespread control panel failures and replacements, often manifested as hyper-sensitivity, no sensitivity or unexplained cancel/drain in the middle of a cycle. Also, some reports of louder than expected.
Not saying that to slam Whirlpool (makes KA), as every brand seems to have issues now, that the old soldier dishwashers never dealt with. Also, every brand seems to have dismissive/hostile customer service -- that is by design now. I do all repairs myself anyway.
Researching from our perspective, I found the fewest shortcomings and most advantages, in the Bosch. I'm hoping the screwy racks and manual filter service is a small price to pay for near silence and remarkably clean dishes with no prep.
Not saying that to slam Whirlpool (makes KA), as every brand seems to have issues now, that the old soldier dishwashers never dealt with. Also, every brand seems to have dismissive/hostile customer service -- that is by design now. I do all repairs myself anyway.
Researching from our perspective, I found the fewest shortcomings and most advantages, in the Bosch. I'm hoping the screwy racks and manual filter service is a small price to pay for near silence and remarkably clean dishes with no prep.
Last edited by XLR8R; 03-12-2013 at 12:19 AM.
03-12-2013, 07:00 AM
#11
Moderator
Regional Coordinator (Southeast)
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Any reason not to check out Miele. Think there loudest dishwasher has a rating of 50db and some as low as 39db. My parents have one and the only way you can tell it is running is if you touch the front of it to feel that it is running. It also holds the most I have ever seen of any dishwasher.
http://www.mieleusa.com/products/ind...dL=Dishwashers
http://www.mieleusa.com/products/ind...dL=Dishwashers
03-12-2013, 10:47 AM
#12
Safety Car
Thread Starter
The base model Miele Classic G4205 starts at $1000 and it is a base model; it doesn't even have delay start, although it's an excellent and quiet dishwasher of course. Meile, like Bosch, follows the European system of filtering water and eliminating the food grinder. Basically, Meile is a European dishwasher with the same functionality and the same annoyances as a Bosch, but for more $$$.
Bosch and Meile offer several advantages and annoyances of the Euro system:
Flow through water heater: Much more efficient than the old oven element down in the base. The flow through heats every drop of water continuously as it cycles through the pump. It allows for very precise water temp control with less energy used -- important for precision cleaning.
Also, plastics are safe in the lower rack.
The old oven element heats unevenly and only the water nearest to it, while using more energy. The oven element is well known for melting plastics. KitchenAid shields the element now, which should protect plastics more.
Filter instead of food grinder: Allows for the renown quiet operation. The Bosch (1/4 turn) cannister filter is easier to clean than the Meile, which requires removing the lower spray arm.
I do no prep to dishes before loading -- that's what the expensive machine is for. Dishes sit all day and the Bosch is run in the evening. Food particles that aren't emulsified catch in the filter. At the end of the cycle, the filter is backwashed and food debris is sluiced out the drain. I typically find only a thin slurry in the filter screen, so I'm starting to reduce filter rinsing now, to perhaps once a week.
The Bosch filter is a 1/4 turn canister; it takes about 30 seconds to rinse and reinstall it.
Condensation drying: Without an oven element to bake the dishes and melt plastic, the hot rinse cycle heats the dishes, then steam condenses on the cooler stainless walls and is pumped out. No electricity is used during drying. Dishes are bone dry, but plastics may still be damp. The door must remain closed for condensation drying to work.
Weird German racks: They have their own ideas how it should be loaded. Takes some getting used to.
Bosch and Meile offer several advantages and annoyances of the Euro system:
Flow through water heater: Much more efficient than the old oven element down in the base. The flow through heats every drop of water continuously as it cycles through the pump. It allows for very precise water temp control with less energy used -- important for precision cleaning.
Also, plastics are safe in the lower rack.
The old oven element heats unevenly and only the water nearest to it, while using more energy. The oven element is well known for melting plastics. KitchenAid shields the element now, which should protect plastics more.
Filter instead of food grinder: Allows for the renown quiet operation. The Bosch (1/4 turn) cannister filter is easier to clean than the Meile, which requires removing the lower spray arm.
I do no prep to dishes before loading -- that's what the expensive machine is for. Dishes sit all day and the Bosch is run in the evening. Food particles that aren't emulsified catch in the filter. At the end of the cycle, the filter is backwashed and food debris is sluiced out the drain. I typically find only a thin slurry in the filter screen, so I'm starting to reduce filter rinsing now, to perhaps once a week.
The Bosch filter is a 1/4 turn canister; it takes about 30 seconds to rinse and reinstall it.
Condensation drying: Without an oven element to bake the dishes and melt plastic, the hot rinse cycle heats the dishes, then steam condenses on the cooler stainless walls and is pumped out. No electricity is used during drying. Dishes are bone dry, but plastics may still be damp. The door must remain closed for condensation drying to work.
Weird German racks: They have their own ideas how it should be loaded. Takes some getting used to.
Last edited by XLR8R; 03-12-2013 at 10:56 AM.
03-13-2013, 07:55 AM
#13
Senior Moderator
The lack of a food grinder seems to be a European thing and Bosch argues that food grinders are too loud to meet their quiet requirements and use additional energy. Well, yeah but...
Comparing the Bosch SHE43R to the KitchenAid KUDS3 looks like this:
Sound level: Bosch 48 dBA, KA 49dBA
Yearly operating cost: Bosch $27, KA $31
Yearly electricity kWh: Bosch 259, KA 288
Price (from hh gregg): Bosch $719, KA $764
So Bosch squeaks by just enough to be ranked higher in searches and on data charts, but the slight Bosch advantage would likely not be enough to sway anyone inclined to one or the other for personal reasons. But the Bosch-y-ness requires a more involved user than the KA.
Perusing the reviews makes me fear for our country though.
Most common Bosch complaint: The end-of-cycle chime wakes them up after bedtime. The chime level can be adjusted or turned off very readily. It's in the manual.
Most common KitchenAid complaint: Brushing against the machine turns it on. The childlock for the buttons can be activated very readily. It's in the manual.
Comparing the Bosch SHE43R to the KitchenAid KUDS3 looks like this:
Sound level: Bosch 48 dBA, KA 49dBA
Yearly operating cost: Bosch $27, KA $31
Yearly electricity kWh: Bosch 259, KA 288
Price (from hh gregg): Bosch $719, KA $764
So Bosch squeaks by just enough to be ranked higher in searches and on data charts, but the slight Bosch advantage would likely not be enough to sway anyone inclined to one or the other for personal reasons. But the Bosch-y-ness requires a more involved user than the KA.
Perusing the reviews makes me fear for our country though.
Most common Bosch complaint: The end-of-cycle chime wakes them up after bedtime. The chime level can be adjusted or turned off very readily. It's in the manual.
Most common KitchenAid complaint: Brushing against the machine turns it on. The childlock for the buttons can be activated very readily. It's in the manual.
10-23-2013, 02:58 PM
#16
Team Owner
My POS GE that is only 7 years old bit the dust. The pump started leaking a crap load of water on the floor and no way I'm fixing it since I'm not happy with the way it cleans dishes. Sad that I call it a POS considering I think I paid around $500 for it.
The wife and I selected a KitchenAid KUDE20FBWH to replace it with. Funny enough it doesn't have a grinder but the filter is super easy to clean/replace.
Once again I was able to save a boat load of money by going to a local appliance shop. The appliance shop was $15 cheaper than BestBuy/Sears and also hooked me up with $125 worth of rebates.
The wife and I selected a KitchenAid KUDE20FBWH to replace it with. Funny enough it doesn't have a grinder but the filter is super easy to clean/replace.
Once again I was able to save a boat load of money by going to a local appliance shop. The appliance shop was $15 cheaper than BestBuy/Sears and also hooked me up with $125 worth of rebates.
Last edited by doopstr; 10-23-2013 at 03:05 PM.
10-23-2013, 03:04 PM
#17
Race Director
iTrader: (1)
My MIL & FIL just got a Bosch. And they say they will never buy another brand again.
11-04-2013, 04:48 PM
#18
The sizzle in the Steak
My POS GE that is only 7 years old bit the dust. The pump started leaking a crap load of water on the floor and no way I'm fixing it since I'm not happy with the way it cleans dishes. Sad that I call it a POS considering I think I paid around $500 for it.
The wife and I selected a KitchenAid KUDE20FBWH to replace it with. Funny enough it doesn't have a grinder but the filter is super easy to clean/replace.
Once again I was able to save a boat load of money by going to a local appliance shop. The appliance shop was $15 cheaper than BestBuy/Sears and also hooked me up with $125 worth of rebates.
The wife and I selected a KitchenAid KUDE20FBWH to replace it with. Funny enough it doesn't have a grinder but the filter is super easy to clean/replace.
Once again I was able to save a boat load of money by going to a local appliance shop. The appliance shop was $15 cheaper than BestBuy/Sears and also hooked me up with $125 worth of rebates.
Why did you forgo the grinder...being that KitchenAid is one of the few that have grinders?
11-05-2013, 10:24 AM
#19
Team Owner
01-07-2014, 08:23 AM
#21
Honda+Blue=My garage
Just ordered the Bosch 800 series. Best Buy on line it was about $150 less than Amazon or any of the Brick and mortars and free shipping to the house.
Looking forward to it, as our current Whirlpool grinder stinks and leaves the plates/glasses with particles. Hoping the filter and better cleaning solves the problem. the sound is rated at 44dB, so should be really quiet.
Looking forward to it, as our current Whirlpool grinder stinks and leaves the plates/glasses with particles. Hoping the filter and better cleaning solves the problem. the sound is rated at 44dB, so should be really quiet.
01-07-2014, 09:16 AM
#22
Team Owner
A quick update on mine.
I'm very happy with the way it cleans dishes.
It's very quiet. I can hear it running only if I "tune in" my ears to listen. The loudest it gets is when the drain pump is running.
There is a light on the front of the door to indicate that it is on but my kids never notice that and constantly end up opening it while it's on.
I don't like that the start button has to be pressed again to continue the cycle if the door is opened/closed while it is running. Every dishwasher I owned before this one would start again simply by closing the door.
So I really would have preferred front controls so people would realize it's on. I know the controls are hidden for style but I prefer the practicality of exposed controls. So far it's a good machine though.
One feature I miss from my GE dishwasher is that it had a display that would indicate how many minutes were left for it to run.
I'm very happy with the way it cleans dishes.
It's very quiet. I can hear it running only if I "tune in" my ears to listen. The loudest it gets is when the drain pump is running.
There is a light on the front of the door to indicate that it is on but my kids never notice that and constantly end up opening it while it's on.
I don't like that the start button has to be pressed again to continue the cycle if the door is opened/closed while it is running. Every dishwasher I owned before this one would start again simply by closing the door.
So I really would have preferred front controls so people would realize it's on. I know the controls are hidden for style but I prefer the practicality of exposed controls. So far it's a good machine though.
One feature I miss from my GE dishwasher is that it had a display that would indicate how many minutes were left for it to run.
Last edited by doopstr; 01-07-2014 at 09:27 AM.
01-21-2014, 12:06 PM
#23
Honda+Blue=My garage
Installed this baby yesterday.
Amazingly quiet, and the convection dry is great.
24" Recessed Handle Dishwasher
800 Series- White
SHE68T52UC The new 3rd rack now offers 30% more loading area. Perfect for ramekins, cooking utensils and extra-long silverware.
44 dBAQuietest dishwasher brand.
New 3rd rack adds versatility and offers 30% more loading capacity.
Touch Control Technology allows for quick cycle programming.
RackMatic® offers 3 height levels, for 9 possible rack positions.
16 Place Setting Capacity
Amazingly quiet, and the convection dry is great.
24" Recessed Handle Dishwasher
800 Series- White
SHE68T52UC The new 3rd rack now offers 30% more loading area. Perfect for ramekins, cooking utensils and extra-long silverware.
44 dBAQuietest dishwasher brand.
New 3rd rack adds versatility and offers 30% more loading capacity.
Touch Control Technology allows for quick cycle programming.
RackMatic® offers 3 height levels, for 9 possible rack positions.
16 Place Setting Capacity
01-21-2014, 02:48 PM
#24
Team Owner
Nice choice!
My KitchenAid has a third rack too. People are amazed when I slide that out to show them.
My KitchenAid has a third rack too. People are amazed when I slide that out to show them.
01-22-2014, 09:25 AM
#26
Team Owner
Yes, it holds a lot of them. It's really good for holding the over sized ones and things like spatulas. It frees up a lot of space in the lower racks for more dishes/cups/etc. It's a very good feature to have.
Last edited by doopstr; 01-22-2014 at 09:29 AM.
01-22-2014, 09:35 AM
#27
Team Owner
3 months into service I pulled the filter on mine. I was shocked to only find one small remnant of some vegetable in there. Besides the vegetable there was a film of "stuff" attached to the filter mesh which i rinsed out in the sink.
I can see why people don't empty the filter and run into problems. The sales guy told my wife repeatedly that this machine had a filter and it had to be cleaned. He even showed her how to do it. When she saw me pull the filter she was like, "What is that?"
I can see why people don't empty the filter and run into problems. The sales guy told my wife repeatedly that this machine had a filter and it had to be cleaned. He even showed her how to do it. When she saw me pull the filter she was like, "What is that?"
Last edited by doopstr; 01-22-2014 at 09:40 AM.
02-18-2014, 11:34 AM
#28
Ex-OEM King
That said, my old GE dishwasher just puked out a ton of water out the back and now I have some drywall repair to do in the basement below.
I bought a new for 2014 Kitchen Aid KDTE334DSS dishwasher yesterday and it should arrive next week some time as they need to order it from the factory. The one I got has both the "power scrub" option (I'm sure it's a gimmick), the third upper rack, and is rated at ~45dB so it'll be a lot quieter and more functional than our old one.
I'll post back up when I get it in and try it out a few times.
03-03-2014, 04:26 PM
#29
Ex-OEM King
Just wanted to write a followup on this. Got the new washer installed last Friday and ran it twice over the weekend. The thing in phenomenal in performance, uses way less water than the old one and is pretty much silent (45dB rating), you have to stand right next to it to hear if it's running or not.
Only downside is that it takes FOREVER to wash dishes. Guess the newer ones use less water but filter it over and over to wash the dishes so it takes a lot longer to finish a cycle. Overall happy. Haven't used the power scrub thing but I just made enchiladas last night so I'll try it with that pan soon. Third rack is totally worth it to put utensils up there.
Only downside is that it takes FOREVER to wash dishes. Guess the newer ones use less water but filter it over and over to wash the dishes so it takes a lot longer to finish a cycle. Overall happy. Haven't used the power scrub thing but I just made enchiladas last night so I'll try it with that pan soon. Third rack is totally worth it to put utensils up there.
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