ttribe

Yeah, the folks you've been arguing with in this thread are not quite the dumb bumpkins you've made them out to be...except Yumcha. He's really dumb.

Yumcha

Go stomp on a LEGO brick. And hope a bug flies into your face as you're driving.

ttribe

knv8

i think tommy is in the lead, at least he has provided links. all you others post with no proof or links...

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

fixed.

Yumcha

I'm not arguing on sales numbers. So, what "proof" are you asking for?

ttribe

I think you, like Tommy, don't have a grasp of how the automotive industry uses the term "Tier".

a35tl

I think that if Tommy had simply modified the term, "Tier", with the word, "Sales", all this hoopla could have been avoided. He was simply arguing that Audi is on a second tier in regards to sales not product. His numbers back that up. He just didn't express his point in the most articulate way, which prompted all this drama.

ttribe

Yeah, I kind of read the discussion the same way.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Welcome to the boards...
Hope you enjoy your new TL.

Oh, PS, how did you find Acurazine? What inspired you to post today?

Majofo

07Acuradude

Now that I have read this thread, I feel dumber lol

weather

^^ (lol) I am not sure if I'll be able to sleep tonight after seeing the above picture

Tommy8888

Ya thanks. That's what I meant.
I know Audi as a brand overall is on par with Lexus/BMW/Mercedes(maybe even better) I was simply stating that the USA Luxury Buyers don't view it that way. Which is no indictment on the product Audi puts out.


A couple of things:

1- The Audi forums seem to give the Acura Brand more respect than the Acura Forums give themselves.

2- I am adamant in my widely backed opinion that a

2013 Acura TL is in the same tier as a 2013 Audi A4.

Countless articles and rankings back up my theory. It don't really matter how much 'better' some posters think an A4 is.. it's in the same
'Upscale'
'Entry Level Luxury Sedan'
Tier as the Acura TL.


3- Audi is not reliable. I don't even think I need to 'post links' in that regard. It will break. It will die. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.
The Oil consumption issue is real. I know 4 Audi Drivers(2 in the family and 2 friends) every single one of their Audi Consumption issue is a hassle.

They might have fixed it in 2013/2014.. but the scare is always there.


4- Once again, quality wise.........Audi is probably up there with Lexus(I strongly disagree, but that's my opinion) Sales does not reflect this.


5- You can't use 'Ferraris' as an example. Because we are talking about a 250k+ Niche Market.
You got to use the 'Common Luxury Brands of America' as a better comparison.

That is all.

wreak

I agree this whole thread could've been avoided if Tommy actually knew what "tier" refers to in automotive speak...

Tommy8888

They are not sheep. Sales usually indicate a strong product.

When the Acura TL was out selling everyone outside of the BMW 3 Series.. were the buyers sheep as well?


The fact of the matter is, most buyers look at Audi and see a 'product' that doesn't have the immense brand name of Lexus/Mercedes/BMW but also doesn't have the 'great deals' of the Acura/Infiniti. It's stuck between it's Luxury competitors with no where to go.


I find it surreal how Audi still have this much backing when sales clearly indicate a product that's only RECENTLY turned things around.

There's thousands of complains regarding Audi's 2010-2011 disaster.


You guys study an Audi and go 'wooh and ahh' and look up/test it's speed/performance/handling. The normal luxury car buyers study an Audi and see a suspicious but expensive machine who's price screams to the American World that they 'belong' with the L,B,and M... but in reality is going life and death against Nissan and Honda's Luxury Divisions.

Tommy8888

So when I link 200 different articles saying a 2013 Acura TL is in the same tier as a 2013 Audi A4... what happens?

Because in 'auto' language.. they are in the same 'tier'.

An A4

Tommy8888

Sales is a direct correlation to how the public view a product.

When the TL was outselling everyone and going toe to toe against BMW 3 Series.. were they viewed as rivals?

Yes or no? Wide spread market opinion said they were.

Is the TL a rival of the BMW 3 Series now?
Wide spread opinion said they are not.


Just like Audi is not a rival of Lexus right now. Not even close.

In fact, it will take a miracle for Audi to even seriously challenge the Lexus brand and even Audi knows it.

saturno_v

Trying to get the thread back to a some sort of useful discussion I think the OP has a kind of point but he does not express it very well.


Audis are technically Tier 1 luxury cars because their lineup simply goes all the way to the top with exotics (R8) full size luxury (A8, A7) and hyperpowerful powerplants. Audi cars are very well engineered and with excellent fit and finish.

Acura is not a Tier 1 luxury brand simply because it does not offer anything above the TL-RLX level, no coupes, no convertible, no V8, etc...

On that note, Infiniti is more Tier 1 than Acura, at least they have the gorgeaous G37 (now G60) coupe and convertible and the excellent Infiniti M.

Now I agree with the OP that Audi is not a on par with other Tier 1 brands (meaning basically MB and BMW) in the perception of the general population he got a point...simply it is not...as you step up from the A4 territory it's BMW and MB all the way and Audi sales fade fast....a lot of people think (wrongly, except for the A3 and the TT) of Audis still as tarted up VW exactly as many people think of Acuras as tarted up Hondas or Lexuses tarted up Toyotas (again wrongly except for the ES).

I do not think Audi are generally viewed above Lexus or maybe even Infiniti.

Now, Audi is doing its best to climb the perception gap with the BMW-MB magic duo with a continuous avalanche of products ranging from very good to excellent...Acura does not even try to play in that league.

I would add that in terms, again, of average user perception, MB is the top dog of Tier 1 luxury brands, more than BMW....it is famous (and true) that there are people (especially women) going to a MB dealership and tell to the salesperson "I can afford a XXX dollar payment on a car.....what is the best Benz I can get??" Is that simple....no matter the car, they want the 3 pointed star....I do think that not even BMW come close to that kind of brand strength.

Just look at the Mercedes lineup...nobody come close, small coupes, big coupes, convertible, hyper GT, etc...

Jaguar was as strong many decades ago but years of subpar products have partially destroyed that reputation....

Cadillac is basically following Audi script in trying to gain the full acceptance in the Tier 1 club (technically they are basically almost already there) and so far they deserve their success.

Yumcha

^ Great post, saturno_v.

unr1

"My Mom will spot me the rest of the money needed."

2014 join date

obvious troll

saturno_v

Yumcha


The fact that I fully recognize Acura faults (lately that turd on wheels called RLX which is not going anywhere exactly like the previous RL) and the fact that it is not a Tier 1 brand does not necessarily means that they weren't capable of cranking out cars on par with the Germans in the same segment or that having the roundel badge on the hood automatically means that car is better...I do not give a damn about brands I look at content and substance.

The 4G TL was an exceptional value for the money. I'm still in love with the standout looks (but that is subjective so let's not go there) but sorry I consider a TL a superior (decisively superior) vehicle to a 4 pots A4 which is a rather underwhelming car.

We already talk about this in the past.

The problem for the TL was the idiotic Acura decision of having 3 sedans when it had really only 2 platforms....The TLX without AWD was put in a position of not being able to compete with the entry level Germans, the TL grew to the RL size (so a 5 Series class size) but in order to defend the RL (which did not sell anyway) it was decontented of options to make it a fully fledged 5 Series E Class competitor.

Basically it was a tweener car so it was destined to be a runner up, at beast, in both segment...too big to compete with the 3 Series, and not capable to match a 5 Series top end engines (the 550i and the M5 so to speak) or equipment.

Car magazines do not care if it takes over 70 grand to beat the level of equipment of a fully loaded TL in a 5 Series...is not their money, they woudl declare the winner and go home.

Sorry but a middle of the pack optioned 4 cylinder 528i is not superior to a fully loaded TL by a long shot....again when it comes to substance over brand

So in my view the TL is a middle pack 5 Series competitor (and some publication acknowledge that and it was rather the intention of Acura in the official release, the TL was supposed to compete with top end 3 Series and the then 3.2 liter A4 and the entry/mid level 5 Series, A6, Infiniti M37 and MB E Class) and many of 4G owners actually cross shopped the with a 5 Series, I quickly did look at the 3 Series which was simply too small for me.

So as a "tweener" car, jack of all trades and master at none but the SH-AWD, especially in manual form is wicked fast and agile....you want to be impressed by the numers...what about the TL SH-AWD capable to be 3 Series agile and nimble in a 5 Series size ormat...that should have been an Acura commercial for the TL.....

The interior appearance of the TL is significantly more upscale than the A4 or the E90 3 Series and fit and finish is on par. The seats of these Germans are a major letdown compared to the beautifully bolstered TL.

Yumcha

Fair enough and valid points.

Let me be clear, I have no brand loyalty (unless you want to consider Ferrari, Pagani, and Aston Martini...) to the main car manufacturers. I go with what appeals to me with my budget given performance, looks, and fun-factor.

There is no doubt that Acura has done a fine job with "bang for the buck" and has found a nice way to fit a bit of everything into an affordable package. Want some HP? Sure. Want some luxury amenities? Got it. Still, lately, the cars have not made my heart race and in driving what's available out there has consistently given me reason to pick the alternative. For the most part, my gripes remain the same: RWD (please?) and the design. This 2015 TLX is a huge step in the right direction...still, back to my comment earlier, if I was shopping for a new sedan, would Honda get my $$$ or would I spend more and just ante up for the BMW? I'd say the latter...just because while I'm impressed, I'm not sold.

Is it a matter of preference and person taste? You bet. I'm in no way saying the BMW 3er and 5er are perfections...but, they sure are darn good and pretty much agreed upon by most as benchmarks for their segment.

saturno_v

I agree with you....but models and marketing are very important the the Germans are very good in creating the uber and powerful luxurious models which generate the Whoa!! effect and pull the sales of the lesser models....I'm convinced that there would be less eagerness to get a 4 banger 328i from certain people if it weren't for the M3....as I'm pretty sure that if Acura created a 400+ HP twin turbo Type S or Typer R TL SH-AWD trim the TL would probably have got more respect, attention and "street creed".


Again, I love my TL but is unbelievable and maddening how inept Acura (read Honda) management really is, they have what it takes to make truly standaout cars if they want to...sometimes I feel that the 4G TL was an excellent car despite of Acura and not because of Acura....like you I have no brand allegiance whatsoever and at this point I'm almost sure that my current car is my first and last Acura...I'm getting the GT-R itch (long term, my ride still is going to last few more years)

Yumcha

Your last paragraph is exactly my frustation: Honda CAN make a fantastic car that pumps up your heartrate.........if they want to.

Case in point? The original NSX. The Prelude. The S2000. Heck, even the Mugen Legend Max which they stubbornly refused to produce. I promise you, if it were made, I would've found a way to have it my garage...but, nope...instead, they stick to more "vanilla" stuff. And I get it (as per the OP), vanilla may sell to the masses...but, to the car enthusiasts? Not so sure.

winstrolvtec

I don't know about the whole notion of not competing, perhaps not competing well enough, toe to toe, or not to one's liking or not having the same full fledged model line and higher end trims, V8's, etc, etc, all which I would agree with but somewhere in all of this there are models and trims that do better align and so they should compete and should be compared.

It's easy to throw out broad statements to that effect but in reality all of these higher end models and performance oriented trims are really just showcases, any of the meaningful sales and volumes come from entry sales and trims of cars like the class lowering CLA's, 320's and the usual 328's, etc. These are not vehicles that are far and above any TL as a whole. As a matter of fact the reason the sales represent a top 3 is primarily a function of these cars and trims selling two to three times the rate of the comparable competitor car and basically being "affordable" or fanciable (including leases especially) to many mid to high end mainstream buyers who are more concerned about the badge than the content, or engine, or performance, etc.

We often hear that people will not waste their money on this car or brand when they can get a - insert brand name here - but then they usually end up getting a car that is priced about the same, has the smaller engine, not really any more performance oriented as a whole in comparison, often less, it's less spacious if one likes or could use it, doesn't have the same feature count or less, you maybe could argue that it might be less statistical reliable or resale in a broader sense, etc.

saturno_v

Well put in this way...in my opinion the TL SH-AWD is an enthusiast car within that sedan size class/power...much sportier and engaging to drive than a 535i which by the way has a fantastic motor...If I could have that inline 6 turbo on a TL body.....granted the V6 J37 it's a gem but the turbo BMW is pure joy....

But, as we said, Acura has no halo cars to attract the masses so to speak.

I barely saw any TL ads on TV even when it was new...look at the web site page on the TL...plain vanilla, no bragging....like when the TL was able to go faster than a 335i on a track in an Acura sponsored event...I would have hammered that point over and over in a commercial if I were in Acura marketing department....

saturno_v

Funny you mention that....few weeks ago I was going my way on the freeway and a kid with a 320i kissing my rear bumper did the lane swapping and tried to pull away to pass to cut me out and put himself in the front....kid with a 320i?? Seriously??

Wait few years when with the next promotion at least you can afford a proper 3 Series...

Tommy8888

This Saturn guy made some fantastic posts. Great reads.
Looks like I'm done here because he illustrated what I wanted to express better than I did.

I will like to add that after talking to Audi Dealers, they admit they are trying to crack that BMW/MB Market and take their place at the top of the Luxury Main Stream food chain.

The issue is that Audi's are such a biger seller World Wide, I don't think they care as much about American Expansion.

The reliabliity of Audis was just recently improved but I fully expect the reliability issues to come back within 1-2 years. Of course the 2012 and 2013 models have 'no issues' yet and it's scoring high.. Why? Because it just turned 2014. Wait until 2016 and when all the Audis start breaking left and right, than we'll see how the Brand hold up.


Audi is a 'Tier 1' Luxury car in product. I agree with that.
It will never be a 'Tier 1' Luxury car in sales. Never. Because that niche realistically can only have up to 3 Brands at a time. Audi will have to almost double their sales to break into Lexus's ground and I just don't see that happening.

What I see is Audis dominating the 2nd level of Luxury sales against the Cad,Volvo,Acura,Infiniti Brands(all inferior brands product wise, but that could change in the blink of an eye)

I don't think some people realize just how dominant the Lexus Brand has become in the 34,000-70,000 Bracket.

For a non BMW/Mercedes brand, the bread and butter is in the 'Entry Level and Mid Level Luxury Sedans' bracket.

In other words, it don't really matter how brilliant Audis are 'higher up'.. unless their A4,A5,and A6's start being great value buys and start delivering.. it will always finish in that 2nd bracket of sales(US).

You need the 'Entry Level Luxury Sedan' bracket to be considered a 'big seller'. It is the meat of all these Brands.

Another thing is Audi SUV'S suck. That hurts them. Gotta get with the times. You need to deliver a great SUV these days.

Tommy8888

Ya, you illustrated my point with this post. I was also mentioning this.
The truth of the matter is the actual important segments is the 'Entry Level Luxury Sedans' 34,000-45,000.

I know forum posters love to talk about 'higher up' but the reality of the situation is these Luxury brands survive on their 3's and 5's.. not on their M5'S.

Upper Middle Class is the biggest buying segment, not Upper class.
This is why Audi will never compete with Lexus/BMW/Mercedes in sales because their 'Entry Level Luxury Sedans' is garbage.

Tommy8888

http://247wallst.com/special-report/...rs-in-america/



This is a fun read. As of 2012, Luxury Brands in America only account for 10% of the overall car buying. Out of that 10%, maybe 8% are 'Entry Level Luxury buyers'.

This '10%' is what determine the true rankings of a Brand in that niche.

ichi d

Cool story bro! I wish my mom could float me some money so I can drive a newer car.

saturno_v

....yes but you need the "rarefied air ", "up there" products to be considered a serious player in the luxury segment even if you want to sell entry level luxury...it is a kinda of a conundrum....it helps perception and, in the end, pricing power.....you could not sell a $50K 4 cylinder car without an M5, an RS6, and the super big fancy iron in your model range.....

Imagine the magazines if Acura tried to sell a 4 cylinder RL..or Infiniti a 4 cylinder M....they would be chewed mercilessly....but BMW sells a 4 banger 5 Series and it is all good, it is acceptable....

saturno_v

...the fact is that in that 10% is where the majority of profits in the car business are made...

Tommy8888

Actually now I'm thinking of getting a Volvo S60.

All this talk of Audi's and Acuras is depressive.

Volvo S60 forums are filled with wonderful people who are modest yet good looking, decently rich yet never flashy, big smiles but not too big.

They also got the coolest ever music.

Majofo

121traffic

Big Macs outsell Whoppers 2 to 1.

McD's is Tier 1.

BK is Tier 2.

Both are STILL fast food.

And you're still a D-Bag.

Tommy8888

Just did a lot more research.

It doesn't matter which site I go to, it doesn't matter which car review I'm looking at. Whenever I look up the Audi A4............... the Acura TL is there as it's direct competitor.

Audi's overall brand might be better than Acura's..but the A4/TL is and has been linked in terms of purchase choices.

I was almost tricked by that one Audi Nut Hugger into thinking the Audi A4 was a superior car................. Thank God I am a research man or I might have been misinformed.

Tommy8888

Boy oh boy the Audi A4 is a shit car. Just finished reading this mega thread on the Audi Forums and the title of the thread is


'What went wrong with my Audi A4 today'

Lmao.

rockstar143

iTrader: (6)

Why are you so hellbent on being right on the classification? You're arguing the subjective because people will weigh the strengths of each vehicle differently depending on preference.

I know a guy that was also adamant about classifying things. He had a real funny mustache and didn't like blacks and jews.