Tommy8888

I was given a Lexus IS this year. I used to drive a 2008 Acura TL and thought this was going to be the end of my Acura Journey.
After looking at the TLX, I am definitely going to be trading in my IS for the car the moment it comes out. My Mom will spot me the rest of the money needed.


This TLX is going to do very well and it will be like the old days when the only competition in it's segment for the TL will be the BMW 3.

Let's take a closer look at the TLX'S competitors before you bash it.

Q50-Basically a more expensive G37. It's like if Acura decides to rise the price of the 4G TL and call it a 'TLX'. Who the Hell will want that?

Lexus IS- Giant fish net at the front. We are not living under water. Why do we need to catch fish? That design is going to age very badly. We are not fishermen. We are drivers.

Audi A4. My Mom drove a 2011 Audi A4. It had the worst oil consumption issue ever. They said it's 'all good' for 2014, but we all know they are lying. Good luck with your Audi leaking oil every 2k miles by 2015. Have fun topping it off every month.

Cadillac ATS- I'm not saying it might break. I'm saying right now it WILL break. You will be driving a broken down American Box by mid 2015. After 30,000 Miles, it will fall apart on the road and if you are stuck in a wilderness area you will probably get eaten by wolves.

Volvo S60- Good looking car, but name is like woman's vagina.


BMW 3 Series and Mercedes C Class- Name value, but looking duller and duller over the years.

TeamAcura

LOL this guy trying to stir the pot.

amill

Lol. Great and insightful post. You should write for automobile magazine.

Yumcha

Wow...interesting thread.

Q50 is the G37...not an upgraded car. So, difference. It is just a car model that got renamed by Nissan/Infiniti.

Secondly, while you listed an interesting list of the "competition", I think we need acknowledge that Acura no longer competes against BMW, Mercedes-Benz, and Audi. The TLX definitely a nice car and refreshing to see that Honda did not go backwards IMO...BUT, it is more apt to be against Lincoln, Buick, Cadillac, and Volvo. To include the German Big 3 is doing their cars a disservice.

Head over to the TL thread in Automotive News to get more insight if you wish.

VR1

Uhhhh... Ok.

JS + XES

iTrader: (1)

Yummy, move this to Ramblings.

Tommy8888

1- Acura never completed against BMW/MERCEDES/LEXUS as a brand.
Those are the actual 'Big 3' among mainstream Luxury Brands and Acura/Infiniti/Audi will never crack it.

2- Audi is a myth. You can tell me all you want about how 'Audi' is part of that BMW/MERCEDES/Lexus crowd, but sales says you are lying.

Sales number says the Audi Brand is in the Acura/Infiniti brand Niche. BMW/Lexus sold TWICE as much as Audi among Luxury buyers. You can't be a 'competitor' when you are getting outsold like that.

3- I listed the competition as US NEWS listed.
US NEWS list the following cars as competitors:
Volvo s60
Audi A4
G37/Q50
Lexus IS
BMW 3
Mercedes C.

We all know BMW/Mercedes is a higher brand. I was just listing the 'Segment' they group the TL/G37 in.

Yumcha

Tempted.

But, nah...I'm nicer than that.

Tommy8888

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...-Midsize-Cars/

This is the 'segment'.

We ALL know BMW/Mercedes/Lexus >than Acura.
This is not rocket science. I'm simply listing the 'segment' it's all under.

This is the sales of Luxury Brands in America:
2012.

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/07...xury-cars.html

Once again, nobody cares what Audi claims they are.
Sales among luxury brands proclaim Audi as part of that Infiniti/Acura Triangle behind the Lexus/BMW/Mercedes triangle.

Men lie, Women lie, Numbers don't lie.
Audi is a 2nd tier Luxury brand. It is what it is.

ttribe

Troll.

Yumcha

Fair enough...but, you sounded like Acura was competing against the German Big 3.

I do not agree with you at all about Audi. Audi may be lagging behind BMW, Lexus and/or Mercedes-Benz in sales, but their cars are JUST as comparable. Just because sales is poorer as per your argument, it does NOT mean the car is not comparable.

The point is, Acura's cars are NOT comparable to any of the prior mentioned luxury brands...and so, I was not referring to sales; which is what I think you thought I meant.

If the US news wants to peg the TLX against the Audi A4, Mercedes-Benz C-Class, and BMW 3-Series...ehhh, I think they need to redo their homework. I'm as big of a Honda fan as any...but, I'm being realistic.


And BTW, until I see some numbers and etc., I'll take the Q50 over the TLX, thanks.

Tommy8888

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2013/02...-rankings.html

A year later in 2013.. Audi continues the trend that's been active among the last decade.
Once again it proves it is part of that Acura/Infiniti Triangle.

Nobody cares what 'Forum posters' have to say about anything. The vast majority of Luxury Brand buyers don't read or post on these forums. They speak. Their opinions matter more than yours.

And THEIR OPINIONS as proven by STATS is that among the mainstream Luxury Buyers.. Audi is part of that 2nd tier.

Yumcha

And OP: Your comment about Audi being a 2nd-tier brand is the FIRST time I've ever read it anywhere.

Sorry, dude...but, you are wrong.





Hmmm...the Audi RS6, S8, and R8 is "second tier"...?

Well, those cars can "second tier" me...anyday.

Yumcha

Time for an IP check.

BRB.

Tommy8888

Numbers mean everything. If you can afford a 37,000 Audi, you can afford a 37,000 BMW. 95% of Acura TL Buyers can also afford a Lexus IS. 95% of Volvo S60 buyers can also afford a BMW 3 Series. These are all 30,000USD+ Cars.

So yes.. numbers actually do mean everything when you rank.

You rank the Luxury Niche based on NUMBERS. Not on 'quality' as you so expressed. People look at numbers.

Volvo quality is actually top notch, but their sales number sucks, hence they are slipping more and more into that 'Unique' tier.

H_CAR

All this bullshit about tiers needs to stop. If the TLX performs well, it WILL very much compare to the 3 series, A4 and C class. Why is this so damn difficult to understand?

Just because Acura is a lower tier, doesn't mean anything if it's priced right, drives great and has all the right technology. (It already has Acura's biggest problem down, styling)

Yumcha

By numbers, I'm talking about HP...performance.


Could give a fark about the other "numbers" you are referring to (i.e. sales figures). I could care less what the general public as per your comment drives. We'll see how the TLX does but again, this is contingent on a few things: performance numbers, MSRP, and (IMO a big one), what it finally looks like.

Honda loves to "nerf" their concepts/prototypes before it hits the mass-production conveyor belt.

Tommy8888

Let's think real carefully and consider the ACTUAL numbers before speaking should we?


Audi barely outsells Infiniti.
An Audi A4 is around the same price as a G37.
SAME PRICE.

So if Audi is '1st tier' as you suggest, what is making all these buyers pick an Infiniti over an Audi? Don't make sense to me.

You don't need to IP check me, I'm a new user and the best rep of the ACTUAL BUYERS OUT THERE that you can find.


The bottom line is.. I go to UC Irvine.
Everybody is rich there, most of the people who care about cars(99% Male) all know that Lexus/Mercedes/BMW utterly destroy Audi.

Now in reality that might not be true. In REALITY Audi might be just as good, but that don't really matter now does it? What matters is that Audi barely outsells Infiniti and Lexus doubles their numbers. WITH SAME PRICE CARS.

AZuser

Tommy8888

And that's why 99% of these forums will not accept what I have to say. Because you guys are elitists in that you guys don't give a fuck about sales numbers. You guys rank Luxury Brands/Brands in general based on performance and styles.

THE REAL WORLD ranks Luxury Brands/Brands based on sales.

I know Audi is a '1st tier' car based on overall quality. In the luxury market?
It's a 2nd tier luxury car.

That's the bottom line. You can't just go around saying 'Audi=Lexus' when Lexus sells twice as much in the same price range.

Yumcha

Beautiful.

So, I suppose, using your logic, Ferrari and Pagani are 102000000th tier brands because well, they only sell a few hundred cars a year. Nice.

Firstly, welcome to the forums...Secondly, you're nuts.

Tommy8888

I can't believe this.

I post ACTUAL SALES NUMBERS in AMERICA among the Luxury Car Buyers.

The numbers prove Audi is in that 2nd tier and yet a lot of you still refuse to accept that.

This is surreal. Even the AUDI forums accepted it. They even admit that in sales THEY ARE SECOND TIER, BUT NOT IN QUALITY.

They said the reason they are 2nd tier in sales is because of a variety of factors/ marketing/bad rep reliability/more known brands/ etc.....

But you guys can't just deny that Audi is a 2nd tier luxury seller when I PROVED IT BY POSTING ACTUAL SALES NUMBERS.
http://www.edmunds.com/industry-cent...nners-are.html

Numbers DON'T LIE.

Audi's been a '2nd tier' Luxury seller for the last decade.

Tommy8888

Wow.. surreal. They are not mainstream luxury brands.

What part of that don't you get?

A mainstream luxury brand is a brand that you ACTUALLY see.

Your examples are horrible because they are 250,000 Cars.

Now if a Ferrari outsells a Lambo 2 to 1.. the ferrari is a better brand because it is dominant within it's own market.

A mainstream luxury brand is 30-60k USD. Cars that is actually seen and brought by the general public.

Audi's sells figures are 2nd tier AMONG MAINSTREAM BRANDS.


I don't get how YOU DON'T GET THIS.

Wow.

ttribe

I'm sorry, I must have missed where you became the representative for the "REAL WORLD." How is is that you reached this conclusion about the "REAL WORLD"?

Don't forget Lamborghini, Bugatti, Bentley, Rolls-Royce, McLaren, etc.

Yep, those "performance [numbers] and styles" don't matter one damn bit.

docboy

I beg to differ.

Numerous so-called reputable automags compare the TL against its Bavarian counterparts. Car and Driver is one, with its rankings of entry level luxury cars: http://www.caranddriver.com/acura/tl

On above Car and Driver article, the 3-Series, A4, IS, are on that list, along with the TL

There are too many articles to reference pitting the TL against the likes of BMW, Audi, etc.

Tommy8888

You still don't get it. I represent the real world because I posted sales of Luxury brands from 2011-2013.

Ferraris and all those cars you listed are not part of that niche. They belong in a much higher niche that have very little relevance to the Auto buyers industry. Few writers give a shit because they have very little impact on the overall economy of Luxury cars.

The Mercedes/BMW/Lexus range is what people care about because those are mainstream.


The bottom line is this:

If you have 40,000 USD.. Sales prove that you will rather buy a Lexus than a Audi.

If you have 37,000 USD sales prove you are looking at a Infiniti/Audi/Acura.

This proves that Audi is not even comparable to Lexus, Lexus don't even consider Audi a competitor. To Lexus, Audi is a joke.

Lexus have doubled Audi's sales despite being JUST AS EXPENSIVE.

Also every single reputable car magazine puts the TL alongside the A4 in rankings. Just because a small niche of 'car forum' guys don't, have no relevance on the actual world of car rankings.

mobusta

THis is the stupidest thread I've ever read. Lexus has a fishnet? That large grill is one of the most aesthetic points of the car with the F package.

Tommy8888

Exactly. It doesn't matter what Forum posters on an Acura or Audi forum thinks.

Every relevant source puts the TL in the same class as the A4.
And that's the bottom line.

Yumcha

My last effort and then, well...yeah.

OP, sales numbers is a nice number to crunch financials and perhaps gauge the general public's opinion on something. However, they are not the be-all-end-all to determining how GOOD a product is.

Let's take a moment and look at timepieces. The "popular" brands are what, Omega and TAG Heuer...but, does that mean, the competitors who arguably sell less by mass AT THAT PRICEPOINT (i.e. IWC and Zenith) are second tier...??? Impossible.

Audis are fantastic luxury vehicles. They offer amenities AND a segment (i.e. R8, A8/S8, A6-Class, A7-Class) that Acura has no interest in joining currently. Maybe the NSX will nick some of that...but, to compare line-ups, they are NOT similar. This is why they are not the same tier. You following? If you refuse to take this argument, at this point, there is nothing else I can say to you to change your mind.



Enjoy your TLX that you're buying. I'm sure you'll love it. But, me? I'm taking my money to get a 3-Series if I were shopping UNLESS, Acura blows me away with some performance numbers.

Tommy8888

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/08...july-2012.html


@Those saying I don't represent the 'real world'.

Those numbers represent the real world.

Real World:
(LUXURY BRANDS that cost around 33,000-60,000)
Lexus doubles Audi Sales.(Despite having the same prices)
BMW doubles Audi Sales(Despite being MORE expensive)
Audi is in a life and death race against Infiniti/Acura
Audi=2nd Tier

Acura Forums World
Audi=1st Tier because I say so based on my personal views and I refuse to accept numbers and I will pull up random comparisons of Ferraris as a absurd way of backing up my absurd claim.

Audi

Yumcha

Yep, I'm absurd.

Well, like I said...enjoy the TLX when it arrives. Viva la variety. I guess I'll stick to my absurdness and stay away from Acura for a bit longer until they really make my jaw-drop with something amazing.

Tommy8888

I agree 100% with you.

But you also have to agree 100% with the numbers.
Which states that in terms of LUXURY BUYER Preferences.
A Lexus is on a higher tier than a Audi.

You must admit that the numbers are more important than your personal views when it comes to ranking the Brands.

If Lexus suddenly drop to Infiniti sales.. can we still put Lexus on a higher pedestal?

You say Audi is a T1 Luxury brand that goes against Lexus/BMW/Mercedes.
I tend to agree with you that based on quality you are right.

BUT what I'm saying is that the general perception based on USA Luxury sales is that Audi is NOT of that rank. That's it.


Also like that other poster proved.. maybe you personally feel that the TL is not on par with the A4. But the vast majority(I will actually say close to ALL) of the reputable car rankings sources put the TL side by side against the A4.

HeartTLs

iTrader: (5)

I stopped reading.

potmilkz

yup i was just going to say that..

so technically you driving your moms car.

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Of course they never "completed" against Ze Germans, that would imply they actually started

Tommy8888

I just realize that I am 99% certain those Luxury Sales numbers I posted were not seen by you guys until today.

You guys post on a 'Acura' forum. For every one of you there's 1000 people out there willing to spend 33,000-60,000 on a car.

Those 1000 people's opinions matter just a bit more when it comes to the rankings as compare to the 1 of you.


Self Loathing is actually a unique thing among Car forum posters.

I am currently reading Camaro forum guys saying how their Camaros are inferior to the Chargers.

I read from BMW 3 Series guys how their 3 Series are inferior to the Lexus IS.

I don't take forum opinions seriously, what I do take seriously are Stats and Numbers.

Because Stats and Numbers represent real world buyers.

Tommy8888

My Mom represents real world buyer.
Her entire Company drives Lexus/Mercedes/BMW.

And you know what they did when they are choosing their luxury brands?
They looked at sales and they did their homework.

Do you know how they do their homework? It's not by going on forums like this.
They did their homework by looking at US News Rankings, by looking at Sales numbers among 33,000 USD+ buyers. They did their homework by looking at Luxury Stats.

And the homework's conclusion comes out to:
Mercedes
BMW
Lexus


Acura/Infiniti/Audi

Volvo

ttribe

Umm, you might want to check out this part of the board - https://acurazine.com/forums/forumdi...daysprune=&f=6

There are entire threads dedicated to analyzing the monthly sales numbers of all manufacturers.

Tommy8888

New Poster comes in posting facts and rankings that says
The Acura TL based on wide spread opinion is ranked right alongside the Audi A4.


Acura TL FORUM POSTERS deny this logic and puts themselves below the Audi A4'S.

Tommy8888

Holy shit. I realize I'm on the wrong forum. Lmao.

Going over there now. Thanks for the link.