Ok everyone knows about the "friends ladder" right? If not it's pretty easy to find on google. Well I've been there a few times in the past but this situation is kind of different to me, so I ask:

-Is it possible to end up on the friends ladder AFTER having already hooked up with said girl a hand full of times?

-Is it possible to end up there not for being a "nice guy" but for (in her eyes) being a "player" or "sleazeball?"

I'll add more background details later but wanted to keep it general for starters.

 

The answers are YES ad YES.

First one - Don't confuse LUST and LOVE. My guess is that you guys are friends and hooked up because you both happen to be in that place at the same time. Was alcohol involved?

Second one - She has no desire to date or be in a relationship with someone that she doesn't see as being serious about being in a relationship. She thinks that you will probably end up hurting her so she's better off being your friend.

That all said, if you are serious about this chick then (AFTER YOU POST PICS OF HER) show her that you can change. Talk to her about this, not just us. Don't assume she can read your mind.

 

I've been in #2, and you will never recover from that. I didn't even do anything wrong. She found out that I associated with a girl that she considered a whore.

 

if u have slept with a girl and she puts you on the friends ladder afterwards; you did something wrong

 

^ well.. was she?

 

 

 

Ahh the great struggle...as with most women, she openly says "I don't do the whole bf thing," etc knowing full well she does. But a guy can't really say "I'm serious about being in a relationship with you" because she will run for the hills.

Backstory (shocker it's very long so if you don't want to read it check out the cliffs): I am ready to "next" this one and move on bec I have a couple other girls lined up, this one has just been at the top of my list, probably because I have the longest history with her, and she's been the most elusive.

We met almost a year ago when I had a gf, hit it off well but nothing happened since i had a gf. But we kept in touch and over the summer she started dating someone at her work. Now all along she always referred to him as her "coworker" and said she was "single" even though she obviously was not. Who knows what she told everyone else but this is what she told me. I caught on as this clearly being her attempt to not scare me off.

Later on she drunkenly confessed to my friends how much she likes me and wishes i was single etc. So her thing ends, and a few months later in Oct/Nov my gf and I split up. So we start talking more, like everyday, and things start heating up. And I start to think ok I can see myself dating this girl. And yes most of the times we did hook up it was alcohol fueled, but there was one time it was sober and planned pretty much (coupled with her saying we need to do this more often etc etc.)

A few times over a few weeks after that we hung out but she would always give me the "i can't hook up tonight" line and I was like alright whatever take it slow no big deal. Looking back I probably should have taken her out on some dates but I remember her whole "I don't do bf's, I'm not trying to date anyone" so it scared me off. But one night we started hooking up and she said it again and (maybe I had a few to many cocktails) I acted very inappropriately (basically said welp cya later, then foolishly tried to justify myself by texting her a million times). So I learned my lesson concerning the sauce and trying to minimize it around the ladies, and more importantly to never make a woman feel bad for not wanting to hook up. (5 years with the same girl makes you forget a lot of shit!)

The next morning I woke up and figured well I guess I'm never hearing from this girl again but I tried to apologize profusely and she eventually said "it's cool but I see you differently now...as someone who [cue jimmy buffet] just wants to get drunk and screw." So I tried a few times to tell her I'm not like that, I like what you offer as a person, it was just 1 bad night etc etc to no avail. Other than a few random texts from her here and there I didn't hear from her or initiate contact over the next few weeks.

Just when I'm starting to get over her, around Christmas, she starts crawling back into my life again. Facebook, texts, telling me what she got for Christmas, telling me about work, asking how my work is, etc. At this point I'm treading very carefully bc I know there's a lot of repair work that still needs to be done and if I say one thing that is remotely more than just friends sounding, I'm done, back to sleazeball status.

So, last Fri she asks what I'm up to that night (which with her is always a precursor to an invitation somewhere), and even though I was out with a girl who I only agreed to go out with just to get over girl A, I lied and said I was at home chillin for the night.

Sat. she's talking to me about her DirecTV and other random bs so I feel things are back to where I can ask her to hang out. My friends and I were going to this bar near her house to watch football, so I invited her. Then the dagger came: "Maybe. One of our residents (she's a nurse) is coming over to see my new house but I don't know when or for how long." (SOOO salty at this point) So I play it cool even though inside I'm not, and thinking damn this girl loves banging her coworkers! Later when were out I text her and ask if she's coming and ummmm yeah no reply til the next morning. My other friend actually texted her too and got to reply at all, so he's not even on her friends ladder.

She asked how last night was and if I was going anywhere to watch football today (sunday). I was tempted to reply with "i can't talk to you like this if you're going to have other guys over to your house" but I didn't bc even though it would end things quickly it would make me appear weak and I didn't want that. Plus I didn't want to assume what I thought to be a mortal lock but you never know. So I dodged her first question and said yes to the 2nd, then she asked how last night was again and I said "good." Obviously she got the message b/c the daily texts from her stopped abruptly.

I haven't talked to her since other than a text to say "have a good trip this weekend" and don't really have a reason to talk to her after either.

Wow, that was pretty long, glad I could vent here. I feel I put in all the work I could to repair my misdeed on that one drunken night, but it just didn't happen. Someone else is gonna be nailing that now I failed to remember the "friends" ladder (or the sleazeball ladder), mainly bc I had already hooked up with her and heard her wishes to do it again, etc. So I guess I figured we'd get back to where we once were and it would just take some time.

My friends aren't really much help because they all say "ehh she's not that good looking, move on." But they're a bunch of idiots pretty much who don't realize that when you're feelin it, you're feelin it and you can't do much about it.

I need to decide what my "nexting" strategy is, bc I'm going to assume they didn't just sit around and chat all night, or if they did, they won't be just chatting for long. Do I stop talking to her cold turkey, or keep in touch ever so slightly (like 1 text per week) just to make her think she didn't scare me off but rather that I've just been busy, just to make it look like I'm the one in control??

Cliffs:
-Knew a girl for a while, talked here and there but didn't hook up bc I had a gf.
-My relationship ended so we started talking more and hooked up a few times. I considered her "dating material."
-I fucked up bad one night, tried to apologize but thought I'd never hear from her again
-Slowly she starts to come around and we resume talking
-I take the plunge and ask her to hang out but she has plans for a guy to come check out her new house that night
-I get bitter and decide it's time to "next" her, but need to know the best way to go about it.

 

1. Calm down.
2. Throw your fucking phone away bc it's killing your points.
3. She fucked that dude. She'll probably do it again.
4. She's not into you anymore, once a chick loses respect, you almost never earn it back.
5. Move on, ignore her and when she want's your attention, blow her off.. Your friends might be idiots, but they're correct.

 

No more responses until we see pics.

 

1. I'm calm
2. Killing my points? what does that mean
3. I know
4. You're right, but it's always been because I was the "nice guy." I've never been the sleaze/player. And usually when a girl isn't into me anymore they stop talking to me all together so it's pretty easy to tell.
5. I know my friends are right and I need to move on. One of them said if she was hotter it would be different That's what I meant by they are idiots. Because even if she was hotter I'd still have to move on.

You'll get a pic eventually but it wont be up for long since I don't know who looks at this stuff nowadays.

 

+2 with Majofo, just listen to his advice you'll be kewl.

 

Scouring facebook for pics taken in dark bars isn't the best way to get over a girl, but enjoy. I'll take them down later tonight.

 

She's cute but you can find a woman as physically attractive as her minus the drama

 

Yes to both questions.

Even though she said that she doesn't want a bf, it sounds like she eventually considered the idea of being more involved with you but didn't want to let you know. Or, she secretly wanted to have you as her bf from the beginning but was afraid to get hurt so she says one thing but means another thing (in order to protect herself).

In either case, I think she was hoping that you'll actually pursue her regardless of what she said before. And when you didn't show convincing signs you are serious about her, she decided that the physical relationship is not progressing and therefore ended it.

 

+1 on Rick's comment..

Points as in Respect points.. not just on her tab, but when you reflect on all the texts you sent her and times you thought about her, you'll respect yourself less as well.

Some personal advice from a 'nice' guy. Don't do anything to lose points.. things that don't work are clinginess, gifts, excessive attention, immature comments, apologizing, getting shitfaced, etc..

Give it some time to get your head cleared and don't look back, that's the worst thing you could do for your mental health. Best thing to accomplish this is to hang out with your retarded friends and meet new people. I would also delete her contact info completely.

 

Eliminate the possibility of "drunk dialing", you will only feel worse in the morning. Chalk this up as a relationship lesson that will better serve you as you pursue other available women. Without failure there can't be success right?

 

^ exactly.. plus out of sight out of mind.. drop her from fb as well, pathetic comments on fb will haunt you and amuse friends & strangers for years.

 

Because she wants to nab you with her sexuality and manipulate you into falling for her, where she will then have the frame in the relationship. For women, it's very "safe" to say they're not looking for boyfriends, fuck around with multiple guys, and only when a guy they deem worthwhile practically begs for her loyalty does she acqueisce. It's ego-preservation.

That's not accurate. Most women almost always want to be in relationships, they just want to be in relationships with men they value higher than themselves. So, if you're low value to her, or she only wants you as a sex toy, then your statement is accurate since it displays neediness and girls don't generally find needy guys attractive. A moment of weakness from a lesser alpha or a greater beta may work and serve to satisfy the provider needs of a typical girl.

I see this more as her keeping her options with you open.

Bingo. Note that you were probably a better deal than the guy she was dating at the time. Also note that she's a typical branch swinger and can fairly quickly move on to another guy assuming the other guy shows her interest enough for her to swing to the next branch.

Can't? Or was holding back?

Women know that men instinctively value a woman holding back her sexuality, it's in our nature to hold that to mean that she's capable of mothering our children, and so we see that as a quality for a longer-term partner. The only problem with that is that women often play this card in disingenuously to lure unsuspecting guys into their webs.

Well she's sending you mixed signals. She wants to party and hook up but then other times she wants to play the girlfriend? If you're going to give her emotional support and intimacy, she's not a booty call, she's a de facto girlfriend. If she's going to parade the fact that she's NOT going after a boyfriend, then she needs to accept the fact that intimacy and traditional dates are also NOT in the picture. Otherwise she's being immature and dishonest with you, and probably herself.

Really, as if drinking and screwing were horrible crimes to humanity - but this is just an attempt to shame you into her frame. And you fell for it...

See? Instead of holding the frame, or reframing all together, you fell into hers. You apologized for your actions even though you really didn't do anything wrong. You didn't owe her anything, you were simply going off of the information that she gave you. She didn't want a BF, and you're not her BF, so she can't expect you to act like one. Your mistake was in NOT treating her like a booty call or at least demanding that she be upfront with her needs for intimacy.

Good. You don't need her.

Well I see here that you were falling for her, and you allow her to come back into your life after a break that she initiated.

Why are you feeling guilty because you're not living your life to her expectations? You're not a sleezeball for wanting to get your dick wet, don't be ashamed of it.

In these exchanges she's testing you for your acqueisance and it's working perfectly. She has you under her spell and you're practically walking on egg shells.

You should have told her you had plans with another girl. She would have felt competition anxiety and either told you you were an asshole because she's a controlling bitch or she would have stepped up her game by being more sexually available. Either way, lying to her and telling her you had no plans was the worst you could do - not to mention that it was a Friday night and you sound like a loser staying home on a Friday night.

WHY are you feeding her with your attention? A man's attention is what fuels women. Don't give it to her, she doesn't deserve it! If it's not sexual, and this isn't a real relationship, phone conversations are akin to breadcrumbs. You don't deserve breadcrumbs my man, you deserve steak!

Basically she's not interested in you at this point and she'd rather watch paint dry.

At this point you shouldn't even be texting or calling her, you should be making out with a girl you just met at the bar.

That's true it would make you appear weak, but that's because you are weak, at least with this girl.

Because it was a passive aggressive response. She knows you're not being "real" (for lack of a better word), and there's nothing girls hate more than guys who are needy. You should have ignored her texts all together and texted her at 4:00pm saying you just woke up from a crazy night and you'll talk to her later.

Don't even text her that. That's nice guy BS, you don't give a shit if she has a good trip or if she has a bad hair day, so stop being dishonest with yourself about it.

No dude. This is what you do, you forget her because she's not worth all of the drama and heartache it's putting you through, trust me! What you need to do is find MORE girls. You have to NOT rely on your friends and your social circle but develop the confidence to open new girls that you can successfully turn into lays. Having the ability to pick up in this sense will give you all you need to feel better.

First of all, stop texting girls so much. And stop the chit chat with girls you're not actively banging. All this does is make your time less valuable - your attention less valuable. If she wants you she needs to make much more of an effort and YOU have to control the frame, at least in time being so that you can get your head right.

Second you have to meet new girls, approach them, get a good vibe and a bit of rapport, some number closes, and then some new dates. I would guess that you're not dating anyone else at the moment, and you probably just have some girl "friends" that you may have upgraded to prospects, but starting off as friends is terrible to begin with.

 

that girl is a grenade dude. move on

 

Well thanks everyone for chiming in. I should have posted this 2 months ago! Amis you really bring it but it's constructive and not offensive (not to mention confirms the fact that ppl actually read long-winded rants).

Also, what do you mean by "frame" or "reframing?" Is that like who has the upper-hand??

To clarify a couple things:
Well, the "period" excuse only works so many days out of the month....so probably a bit of both.


Damnit I knew I should have told her the truth! The reason I held back is bc she would have said "oh cool have fun." But I forgot what women say and feel are 2 entirely different things. Even though she would have said one thing she probably would have thought: "Date?? I never got no stinkin date!" But I'm not tooo broken up over it because as you mentioned below she would rather watch paint dry. Yeah it could have turned the tables, but most likely that decision was already made. And these 2 girls cross paths quite often and in retrospect that could have made things real interesting. Oh well, lesson learned.

Yeah you're right. I also added "don't do anything I wouldn't do" just to try to be funny and she says "well that's not much haha." Well you know what, F that. I'm 26, just out of a 5 year relationship so yeah she just might be right. And I just might be proud of that.

Well, I have 1 that you could say I'm dating, the girl I was actually out with when I lied, and by all accounts she's hotter, but we've only hung out a couple times and never talk during the week but we are going out tomorrow. And luckily we didn't start as friends. Just met, exchanged digits and set up some dates. But she already gave me the "I really like you a lot" line on the 2nd date (sober too) so that might lead to some more fun stuff. She's not bugging me all the time so I can't really say she's a clinger. But that's another thread for another day

 

^ This. Talking once a week or less is perfect, respect her space. In fact, give her the opportunity to reach out to you. You got this Mike, I hope the 3rd date goes well..

 

I'm not trying to be offensive

Framing in the context of dating…

Men and women generally communicate differently. Women communicate in covert terms while men communicate in overt terms. Men mean what they say and say what they mean (for the most part). Women, on the other hand, largely operate covertly. That's not to mean that they necessarily have bad intentions, but the message that they're often trying to communicate isn't always obvious. There’s typically something beneath the surface. They don’t communicate that to you because of other anxieties and socially instilled conventions.

One tactic women employ to test a man’s mettle is the shit-test. A shit-test is a jab, a comment said in passing, an unfavorable action, or a joke that’s designed to rattle you. It happens very often, women shit-test subconsciously, and it’s comparable to how a man check’s for a woman’s sexual availability (like when you see a girl in a short skirt crossing the street, you look). And just like checking for a woman’s sexuality, it never really ends. As a guy, you can appreciate just how necessary it is for a woman to be sexually available to you. A shit-test satisfies the same desires in women, but in terms of figuring out how much of a strong and confident man you are, not how sexually available you are.

The reason this matters is because of the simple fact that if you enter into an interaction with a woman and you don’t have the wherewithal to know better, you're very likely to end up falling into her frame. This is typical of guys who were raised by single mothers, or in a household with a weak father. The average man, once he falls into a woman’s frame, supplicates and behaves in ways that aren’t true to his desires. A man that falls into a woman’s frame, very quickly loses understanding of his own boundaries, and is less capable of directing interactions by his own compass.

So what is a frame? Look at it as your paradigm; your world. Technically, everyone can look at things through entirely different perspectives. You can see someone else’s perspective on things, and agree or disagree. But it’s when you allow someone else to form your understanding of a situation or perspective that you accept their views and not your own. That’s a critical component in smashing shit-tests and successfully navigating through potentially manipulative ploys.

In attracting women, holding the frame serves two purposes. First, it gives you the ability to filter out the type of girls you do or don’t want in your life. Second, it has the residual effect of further attracting women who already find you interesting.

Ultimately, framing interactions in initial conversation, and knowing yourself well enough to hold the frame, are key indicators of confidence and high self-esteem. That’s highly attractive to women. But again it also serves to propel you forward in your attempts to filter out the lower-quality/undesirable women because you know what you want and don’t deal with those that you don’t.

It doesn't have to be a matter of control over another person, or power as you suggest it may be. But in dating it has everything to do with having control over what you want and defining whatever it is you want your world look like.

Successfully framing interactions with women, and having successful relationships – long or short – is dependent on your willingness to define yourself and accept your desires as normal and not shameful (i.e., drinking and wanting to have sex, so long as you’re not self-destructive).

Exactly. Live and learn.

Good atittude.

Good. But don't limit yourself to dating/banging one girl at a time.

 

I love reading what you have to say Amis... some of the best advice I've ever heard about D&R...

I'm definitely hitting a rough time in that department (failing LT relationship) so it's advice I see myself actively trying to work into my own life when the time comes... :P