SiGGy

I'd love to hear any theories on warped rotors...

Honestly in the past 10 years of owning Acura's I have never had so many warped rotors (CLS, and 6MT TL)... The thought is fresh on my mind, be interesting to hear another persons thoughts on the subject... And I don't mean this to be Acura specific; I'm sure someone else has had experiences similar on other vehicles/makes.

Improper break in of the pad?

Is it my driving style leading to pad buildup?

Lack of airflow (cooling) in the engineering?

Driving through a cold water puddle after braking hard?

Automatic car wash? water sprayed on hot brake rotors....

Hub bearings hosed from lightly curbing wheels?

I'm sure a mixture of all of this can add up to warped rotors... but the stock rotors only lasting less than 20k is really driving me crazy...

Then on the flip side, should the end user be responsible for poor engineering? Like the lack of airflow on the CLS vehicles that caused it to overheat, even if it is considered a wear item.

Also

If slotted/drilled rotors really do help alleviate the problems of warping; why don't more vehicles include them?

Moog-Type-S

It's a Honda thing......pretty much every Honda/Acura vehicle I have owned (except for motorcycles) has had warped rotors.....VERY early.

My CL-S was the worst....12k miles!!!!!!

I dunno why Honda brakes are tastic.....but it does suck...that's for sure.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

i have only experienced warped rotors once on my TL and it was on my 98 which i purchased with warped rotors... i remember first test driving the car and feeling the shake in the steering wheel when i would brake hard and initially chalked it up to the alignment... after i negotiated the price of the car, i had the previous owner deduct the cost of an alignment... i took it to a shop and the car was as dead on spec as a chalk outline would be at a crime scene...

after taking it to my independent mechanic, he advised that i had warped rotors... since they were original OEM that were never yet serviced, he turned them, changed the pads and told me if the shaking doens't improve, ill need new rotors... after install he took me out in the car and proceeded to show me the proper way to break in and bed the pads... and to also take it easy for the first 500 miles... i have always followed this process and never had a problem again...

to be honest, i think it may be a combo of things that cause warped rotors... IMHO i think that sudden change in temp would be your culprit... i always wait for the car to cool down before i wash it and always try to avoid high puddles that will reach the brakes... i don't use auto washes so i wouldn't know about that... i don't think improper cooling would be the culprit because i see many other cars have worse brake cooling that us... oh yeah and lets not talk about the 'made in china' rotors that autozone and ebay carry... those in itself are a fail train waiting to happen...

but if you really have such a bad warping problem, have you tried slotted rotors? they help to dissipate the heat more efficiently and whenever i have to change rotors on any of my cars, i always go the slotted rotora route...

tsxgoogs

I just replaced my rotors @ 55k miles but they were warped for a couple months until i could not stand it any longer. I just replaced oem with slotted stoptechs. My guess to why a lot of manufacturors will not put slotted rotors or drilled on there cars because of pad wear.

KaMLuNg

iTrader: (5)

and also i have yet to find a shop that will turn slotted rotors... so you can't really 'refinish' them at next pad change...

FastInFairway

SiGGY, according to the folks at Jay Wolfe here in KC, it's all the driver and it's always my fault.

My opinion, OEM rotors for my 03 TL-S are trash. I've had the front ones turned 3 times in the last 35k miles. I paid Jay Wolfe to do it the first time, the second time they did it for free because it had only been about 10k miles, and then I paid someone else to do it the 3rd time because Acura wanted $400 to turn both the fronts and backs.

The back rotors have even been replaced. They were brand new when I bought the car in 06 with 32k miles on it and they got turned after 10k miles. Jay Wolfe replaced them the second time they acted up, but they keep saying it's my fault.

I don't deny that I drive my car hard at times and probably brake a bit harder than I should, but there's no way I should have had the front turned 3 times and the backs turned, replaced and turned again in 35k miles.

Needless to say when they need to be replaced again, which is probably in the next 9-10 months, I'll be upgrading to slotted.

Acura OEM rotors FTL.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

I have owned an '03 CL-S and now an '03 AV6, and both were victims of the warped rotor issue.

Contrary to the previous posts which suggests slotted rotors dissipate heat better, as far as I know slotted rotors real benefit is cleaning the surface of the brake pad for better brake performance. Drilled rotors provide better air flow which increases their ability to dissipate heat better.

On the CL-S I went with slotted/drilled rotors. The slots created way too much brake dust. For a daily driven street car that's only going to the track every once in a great while there was no need for slotted rotors IMO, but the rotors didn't wap at all in the time I had the car until I traded it in.

With the Accord, I replaced the warped OEMs with Centric rotors drilled out by rotorpros. I've had them on since Feb of '08 and they're still grabbing just as well as first installed with absolutely no warpage or vibration when braking.

Another factor is the brake pad itself. I've been told by a brake pro that cermaic pads are no good for steet driven cars and eat rotors up prematurely. In the case of Honda OEM rotors, that means even quicker warpage than with stock pads. A lot of people run Brembo blanks with Hawk pads, so it's not a surprise to me that they still warp due to this fact.

My experiences convinced me that drilled rotors do truly run cooler and don't warp nearly as easily as stock OEM rotors.

fsttyms1

Over torqued lug nuts will cause it as well. If a shop has to take my wheel/s off i will drive it straight home and properly torque all the lugnuts to 80. Properly breaking in the brakes (easy on them for 500 miles) then do a bed in procedure. In 310k+ miles on my TL i have never experienced pulsing of the brake pedal. I even run the car on lapping days and auto-x events. Quality rotors helps as well. (stock ones i got 75ishk out of before running I rotor and now rotora)

dallison

i don't know if the size of the rotor has anything to do with it. It seems like the rotors comapred to the ones from something 20+ years ago may be thinner. When i used to have the rotors turned down, the guys always said" these things are so thin now, so that you have to buy new ones and we really can't turn them down any further"

I would say that a lot of people do not know how to properly break in new brakes. I know that you aren't supposed to jam on the brakes or ride em for the 1st so many miles if you can help it.


I don't really think ceramics are that great. it seems like they are more appropriate for high heat use, like a race track.

Also i don't know if the compounds that are used are too abrasive and heat up more?

I typically go with a semi metallic or carbon metallic if i can. I know metalmaster and other pads will eat up rotors quicker than their probably engineered for.



Just some thoughts.

Infamous425

imo its a honda/acura thing. they put crappy/undersized/cheap/? rotors on their cars. my accord rotors warped at 10k, resurfaced, warped again at 12k. 16k i decided to replace all rotors/pads with aftermarket and until 55k when i sold the car to my brother i experienced no warping at all.

my scion, 85k now on original rotors and no warping.

AS3.0CL

honda/acura uses crap rotors....they warp


what affects rotors the most and if they warp or not is essentially the metal in which they are made out of. different metals react differently to heat as well as rapped cooling. also the grain structure of the metal of how it was solidified in combination with the type of metal/metals used will affect the strength and properties of the rotor.

using a higher quality metal that has better heat resisting properties will not warp due to the fact they can take the stress and heat being applied to them.

bottom line is...honda rotors suck, the quality and material used sucks. put on a quality aftermarket rotor, i am willing to bet you will not have warping issues due to the quality and kind of metal used.

on a side note every honda?acura that has been in my family regardless of the person driving it has warped the rotors in a very short time. toyota's however i have yet to warp them even down to barely any metal left.

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

so the prep for new rotors is to be easy on them for 500 miles then do the bed in?

SiGGy

This is a fascinating article I read a few weeks back from Stoptech.

It covers warping and pad build up as well as break-in procedures...

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...rakedisk.shtml

mrmako

Engineering. My V70 ate through two sets of OEM Brembos before I switched to PowerStop rotors. Those were great.

dallison

back in 1995 i purchased a complete set of stoptech cross drilled rotors and carbon metallic pads for my 1987 camry that had 145k on it.

After the were installed, i took the car down a real steep hill after around 100o milles. I accelereated to 70 and slammed on the brakes. I repeated this 7 times. Only the last time did i have much brake fade.
The car did not have abs and i was fanatical about flushing brake fluid. Those rotors lasted around 100k and only needed to be turned down once. I hammered the brakes very hard throughout it's life. the pads lasted around 50k miles each set.

i miss that car.

nokiaman

08 Honda Odyssey, they were warped at 13k miles. Honda brakes suck

cusdaddy

As others have said, Honda/Acura use crap rotors. My CL had warped rotors at 18K, my parents 2 Accords had warped rotors near ~25K miles. All other cars I've had have never had warped rotors and my parents don't drive their Accords hard at all.

Costco

IMO I would never get drilled/slotted rotors, on a street car or a track car, at least not with a reasonable budget. Its mostly a marketing thing, because drilled/slotted rotors look cool.... and I think they do. But not cool enough to sacrifice the possibility of being able to resurface my rotors, along with a number of other problems that will arise. If you've ever used a brake lathe, either an on-car one or the traditional style, you'll realize why its nearly impossible or a huge PITA to try to resurface drilled/slotted rotors. A brake lathe works by either you either manually or programming the lathe to force a cutting tip into the rotor, while rotating the rotor at the hub. I've never seen it happen, but supposedly if you tried turning a drilled/slotted rotor, it would mess up/destroy the cutting tips.

If anything, "drilled" rotors that are cast with the holes in them hold up better than actually drilled rotors. Even still, most of them experience cracking at the edges. Yes, there are dedicated race cars out there that use carbon ceramic drilled/slotted rotors..... but they are slowing down from speeds of 150+ and their rotors get RED-hot, and every bit helps. A CL owner, for instance, may slow down from 60-70 at best on a track, and in 99.99% of cases drives on the street 99.99% of the time, so the drilled/slotted cons heavily outweigh the pros. And your brake rotor has a ton of vanes on it which dissipate heat well enough anyway.... usually a much bigger problem is the brake fluid boiling. It ain't fun when you step on the brake and it goes all the way to the floor, with very little braking force.... not to mention scary.

The whole drilled/slotted rotors "cleaning" the brake pad thing is a joke. Seriously...... as you use the brakes, the pad material disintegrates, so why would you even need to clean it? As for the better "venting" properties of slotted rotors, it may have been necessary with pad technology and construction of brakes years and years ago.... but today its not a problem.

If you truly want great performance, something has to give. Track pads are squeaky as all hell, puke dust like a mofo, and generally are a PITA to deal with on the street, but will make your face feel like it's getting ripped off when you stomp on the brakes. Ceramic pads eat rotors because the compound is really hard, but they are usually quieter and have very little brake dust. Buy a set of quality blank rotors - they will have less cheap filler material in the casting itself and will resist warping and dissipate heat much better than any number of marketing gimmicks can.

Stock Honda/Acura rotors usually warp because they use cheaper construction. Its not because the rotors themselves were drilled that resulted in less warpage, it was because despite the fact that they were drilled, they most likely used better materials in casting them than Honda did.

Cliffs:

Drilled/slotted rotors are a win/win for brake companies. They eat pads and the rotors don't last nearly as long, so people will buy their products more often. People think its cool-looking too... another win. Buy if you like throwing your money away for the sake of looking cool.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

^ So we agree, slotted/drilled rotors aren't worth it, but I was suggesting just drilled, not a slotted/drilled combo. The whole thing about only getting drilled rotors that were cast with the holes is bogus. If they're drilled correctly; i.e. in between the vanes, not too many holes per surface area to reduce structural integrity and not too close to the edge of the rotor, then cracking is highly unlikely. Yes, I agree, having them turned is not a good idea, but if they're lasting twice or three times as long as solid rotors, then who cares, you're already ahead of the game.

Also my point was to suggest that under normal daily driving situations that drilled rotors run cooler simply by circulating air through them verses a solid vaned rotor, not in a track situation. I for one didn't buy my drilled rotors just to look cool. I bought them to run cool and prevent warpage. To each their own, but from my experience, buying quality drilled rotors was not a waste of money, it saved me money.

LuvMyTSX

I had warped rotors on my 04 TSX as well. I bought the car with 16k on it and by 25k, the car was vibrating like crazy every time I stopped. I couldn't take the vibrating anymore and at round 28k, replaced the OEMs with Power Slot rotors (slotted only not drilled) and Hawk ceramic pads. I'm now at 56k miles and haven't had a problem. So my slotted rotors and ceramic pads have lasted longer than the OEMs. I haven't needed to get them turned or anything, they've been perfect.

None of the 4 cars I drove prior to my TSX ever had brake problems, so this leads me to believe Honda/Acura has crappy OEM brakes and/or bad engineering. What bothers me is that they refuse to fix the problem. It spans many models over many years, and continues into each generation.

dom

Yup. My 07 Ody with 25K miles is visiting the dealer next week. Same thing with the TSX's I had. Never had the problem with aftermarket rotors.

LuvMyTSX

I believe the current gen Accord is also having brake problems. I think there is a TSB or something out regarding the brakes.

nokiaman

Holy crap! I addressed a complaint over a month ago maybe the 23th of June with Honda NA regarding my rotors being warped too early and they just returned my call today, I might be getting a reimbursement for the 600$ I paid for the new rotors.

Tomorrow, I'll know for sure.

Blazin Si

There are no companies in the US that manufacture brake rotors. Like I've said in the past, the companies that did are now merely a shell of what they once were. Some of them still resurface the rotors with nickel or zinc coatings as well as other things like cross drilling and slotting. Most are made in China from melted down army tanks and other scrap metals.

My Civic's have never gave me problems with warping and neither has my CL. My parents had an '01 Mitsubishi Galant 4 cylinder and those rotors wouldn't make it 10k miles without warping. They tried everything to fix the problem. Different pads and rotor combinations, but they would always warp. I think it was due to the rotor size being to small and overheating.

Costco

I meant drilled/slotted as in drilled or slotted. Drilling a hole in a rotor could cause a stress point.... I believe Porsche casts their "drilled" rotors as opposed to actually drilling them. I do agree with you in the respect that they aren't worth the money though

I think turning the rotors once in a while is a good idea... it decreases the potential for rotor runout developing and it wears the pads evenly, and if there is runout, it usually gets rid of it. Another thing.... excessive runout can cause pedal pulsing too, and if you have drilled and/or slotted rotors, you're SOL, you'll have to either just deal with it or buy new ones. And if you do change to different pads without changing the rotors, its usually a good idea to get the rotors turned so that the surface of the rotor is "fresh", instead of having old, residual brake pad material on the rotor.

I assume I have OEM rotors on my Z28, and I'm not sure when and at how many miles they were replaced (if ever ), but the pads are nearly gone. I've yet to change the brakes on my car (only bled the fluid with DOT 4) and I assume they are OEM rotors because the service records are only from the dealership. I can stomp on the brake at 80 and the steering wheel stays true, it may shimmy but there's no actual shuddering or pulsing in the steering wheel itself. I can also ease on the brake on the highway with just my pinky resting on the steering wheel and I don't feel any pulsing. I do engine brake a lot, so that should be taken into consideration, I guess.

Like I said.... its not because of the fact that your rotors are drilled that makes them resistant to warping, but rather because the aftermarket rotors your purchased are most likely much better quality. There's a TON of people out there with drilled Brembos with cracks reaching outwards from where the drilled holes are. I don't mean to sound like an asshole if I am, and I'm glad for those of you whose drilled or slotted rotors are working out for you. But I will never buy drilled or slotted rotors. Here is a Formula 1 car under heavy braking:



and here are the brakes it uses:

Costco

That's a good point. Smaller brake rotors function less effectively like a heat sink.... there's less surface area to dissipate the heat.

Costco

I didn't plan on digging this up but while visiting a vendor's webpage on another site, they illustrated my point exactly:



take note that the hats don't even look discolored or have any rust, so they are still pretty new. These rotors are sold by another well-known vendor who has a sale on these rotors for CHEAP. As you can see, saving yourself some money could eventually become a safety issue. I think this post speaks for itself (notice the crack goes right through the middle of the drill hole):

http://g35driver.com/forums/3771014-post6.html

DON'T CHEAP OUT ON YOUR ROTORS!!!!!!!! That's for anyone reading this thread and Honda/Acura also, and any other manufacturer for that matter.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

^ That's not a drill hole, it's some horrible looking slotted rotor. I wouldn't put those rotors on my car if you paid me. Seriously those look like someone made those slots with a backyard drilled press with a worn out drill bit lol. And notice how close to the edge the slots go? That's why I said if drilled HOLES are done right you won't get cracking. These are neither holes nor done right, so this proves nothing other than some really bad looking rotors cracked because they were not slotted correctly.

SuperTrooper169

iTrader: (2)

Now here's my front rotors. Notice there's not a bazillion holes, just enough to effectively cool the rotor. Also notice the holes are not right up on the edge of the rotor. They're also drilled in between the vanes as not to effect the structural integrity. 30k miles later and besides the black coating pealing behind the wheel hub, they still look good and perform great.

Costco

I have seen a bunch of cracked drilled rotors, if anything it happens far more often to drilled than to slotted rotors, and even moreso than blanks. Yes, even blanks crack... its rare, and could be attributed to either shipping damage or just plain old cheap materials and manufacturing.

Even if the holes are drilled around and not through the vanes, structural integrity is compromised. You can't drill even just one hole straight through a rotor and expect it to last as long or be as durable as a non-drilled rotor. Just try taking a piece of tissue and poking a hole through it, anywhere, then pulling it apart from the ends. The tissue will come apart right where the tear is.

My point is, no matter how well a rotor is made, or how "well" it is drilled, drilling it only increases the chance of rotor cracking. If you don't have any problems, consider yourselves lucky, or consider those poor souls with the cracked rotors unlucky. And those relatively tiny holes in a rotor will never move as much air as the centrifugal force pushing air through the vanes inside of a rapidly spinning rotor.

If you clicked on the link for g35driver you'll see this picture of a drilled StopTech rotor:



http://g35driver.com/forums/brakes-s...on-brembo.html


and despite being drilled away from the outboard edge, here are stress cracks developing in a drilled rotor.... also take note that they're supposedly done correctly, with chamfered edges:

aznboi2424

iTrader: (10)

I started having heat cracks in my OE rotor.

stright-(paint)balling

uh you are wrong about no companies that make brake rotors in the U.S. Honda THEMSELF makes their own rotors for their cars. the Anna(Anna,Ohio) south plant For ATLEAST 20 YEARS have made rotors for all plants in Ohio,Indiana, Alabama, and Canada.
our south plant makes Rotors, cranks(machine them after they've been heat treated), axle shafts, and block machining.
then west plant(where i work) does assembly of engines(3 lines), head machining(5 lines) and head assembly(3 lines).

dallison

so this would explain it all

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

Not just a Honda thing. My Infiniti and Pathfinder have the same issue.

sho_nuff1997

iTrader: (2)

My Dad's Titan went through 3 sets of rotors before 12K miles.

RaviNJCLs

iTrader: (4)

I just think that todays cars are very heavy, we drive fast and the brakes are not made like they were. When I upgraded the brakes on my CL to the Rotora slotted ones, I didn't have any problems.

sho_nuff1997

iTrader: (2)

^ It's a combination of that and poorly/cheaply manufactured parts.

Be-in my TL

I don't have warpage, but my rears have a few rust ridges. It's damn annoying.
I'm about to replace my front and rear pads along with machining the rotors. 40k on a set of OE pads isn't too bad, so I'm gonna stick with them again =). Rotors were still good.
Fronts were 1.092" and 1.090"
Rears were .360" and .354"
I believe specs is 1.050" and rear .300". Soemthing around there, I don't remember exactly.

stright-(paint)balling

like someone else said it's not just Honda has poor brake rotor life. Ford( I had a buddy with a F-150 he could only get 12-15,000 out of a set of rotors and he didn't hot rod it), Chrysler and some of the imports. about the best 2 imports with Brakes are Porshe and BMW. but you pay when you replace those rotors.

I'm like you guys i wish they'd either do one of 2 things:
option #1. on Benz AMG models you'll notice the brake ducts to allow better brake cooling. do something like that with the designers. maybe even duct fans on it.
option #2.(this is a little more cost) Larger rotors and cross-drilling them.

Ken1997TL

IMO, Honda doesnt put big enough brake rotors for the cars, probably to keep unsprung weight down. Crappy pads doesn't help either.