I still bet that the bmw gets much more HP and torque to the ground than the fwd TSX :P


Bottom line is, most people would rather buy a A4 or 325 over the TSX.
IMO

 

Sorry. Just when you come into a conversation yellin', you're going to set some people off.

As far as Accord Coupe, that's an exception. A coupe version of one of the top selling sedans of all time will obviously sell well. But that's not the case with very many coupes.

 

i was in the same position EXACTLY, now with no v6 in the TSX ill just hang on to my TL for awhile and save up cash

 

ill bet it sells real well.

 

One thing I think everybody needs to remember is that this car isn't meant to sway TL owners.

New TL should have the same goodies as the TSX with the addition to 280hp. How many of you would hop to a TLS that had 280hp?

 

How is it not on the same level as the i6 2.5l?

 

As much as I think the TSX is a stupid idea, the article's writer is a cockhead.

 

TSX= in my rearview mirror all day long!

sidemarker

 

Of course...The TSX was never designed to compete with the TL or CL (or whatever you own). It's not going to out perform you. It will, however see a fair amount of A4s and the occasional 325 in its mirrors.

 

I actually think the car is going to sell.
This car is no boring than any Lexus design and they sell like hot cakes.
need aftermarket!!

 

I agree, the Tsx needs a 6 rather than a 4. I think 2 new Accords coming out whether US or Euro is overkill. If Acura really wanted to compete with BMW, they should take the TL and CL and go all out w/ the power and styling. The Tsx isn't a bad car, looks ugly as hell just like the Accord but the interiors sure are nice!?!??! Jus my .02

 

Hmm, the LS 430 is boring looking, yes. That is it. What are you talking about?

 

And the TSX will enable the TL to go all out...The TL seemed to try to straddle the line between say the 3 series and the 5 series and in doing so, couldn't really compete with either. Now that the TSX is coming to fill the entry level slot, the TL has been freed to go straight at the 5 series. The TSX helps fill out the otherwise nichey Acura lineup. IMHO

 

I think he's talking about the IS300...which to me is a fugly car. I like the look of the TSX much better.

 

Lest we not all forget that the TSX resembles in many ways the old Infiniti G20--and we all know what happened to the G20!

 

The first gen G20 was a decent car. However, it was based on the older Altima platform so it was doomed to be the upscale version of a mediocure quasi-compact car...and under powered compared the it's competition.
The TSX is based on a one of the most popular platforms in the world, sport tuned, with as much or more power than the competition.

The fact that they are both entry level luxury cars is about where the comparison stops. In which case, you can make that comparison with the G20 and any entry lux cars (the 325 resembles in many ways the old Infinity G20--and look what happened to the G20!)

 

The newer G20 failed, imo, because it didn't have the fun-to-drive factor that the previous gen had. I think the TSX will have that factor in spades.

 

Inline 6 /w double VANOS
Compared to a I-VTEC 4cyl?

i-VTEC engine that generates 200 horsepower at 6,800 rpm and 166 lb-ft of torque at 4,500 rpm.

BMW I6 184hp @ 5900 rpms and 175 lb-ft @ 3500rpms.

DOUBLE VANOS will modify both the intake and exhaust valve timing to allow a broad powerband. Where as I-VTEC will only adjust your intake.

The double vanos engine will provide broader powerband and more torque. Which in a 4 door will make a big differnce when you have 4 people in it. I wish I had a 2.4L I-vtec graph to compare the two. The BMW is near flat on the torque curve.

Plus I believe the 2.4L has 11:1 pistions? Definetly premium gas only. The BMW is 10:1 or 10.2:1 I believe.

The engines are not similar at all except close in maximum output. And then to compare a forced induction 4cyl in the bunch makes things even a bit more crazy.

 

Double Vanos is nice but why say it's better than honda's implementation of i-vtec? Honda produces more power per liter than the bmw does. The bmw BARELY nudges the acura out in ftlbs-trq/liter. I expect the TypeS version of the car do have more trq and power out which then will far exceed anything BMW has to offer for the 325.

All driving impression of the engine indicate that the engine isn't buzzy like everybody thought and in fact the car just continues to pull. In fact the BMW 325 is SLOWER than the TSX base model. Of course true street numbers will be the proof but according to BMW's numbers the Acura will not have a problem.

You're numbers are incorrect:

tsx has 10.5:1 compression

bmw i6 325 184hp 6000rpm
bmw compression is 10.5:1 and requires premium gas only.

btw here's a graph of the trq curve Doesn't seem to lack anywhere that i can see....

 

LOL, nice fake graph. Where did that come from?

Temple of VTEC?!?

And yes, the BMW engine is 10.5:1. I said I wasn't sure.

As I was saying the engine doesn't compare. It barely has 100hp by 4000rpm like the fake graph shows. I'll wait for a real dyno.

I-VTEC is not close to the technology DOUBLE VANOS is.



And from TOV...

In 0-60. But on the highway where torque is needed the BMW will walk away even better.

3230lbs RSX 200hp

3285lbs 325Ci 184hp

But yet the BMW is still going to be faster? with less HP? And it weighs more? how could that be... ?!?!

Maybe a better engine with a better power-band? Or I guess it could be the little rodents they hide in the compartment running in the exercise wheels. hehe

power per liter, BLAH BLAH BLAH. I'm sick of hearing it. Torque is what moves the weight around.

TORQUE! TORQUE! i tell you!

HP is a calculation, not a direct measurement. Dynos measure TORQUE and compute HP.

HP=(RPM*TORQUE)/5252

If torque wasn't important the BMW wouldn't be faster.

yes, I agree Honda is good at making things that rev up to 10^2 RPMS. And sound like a lawn mower. And they are great in a 2 door setup which are light weight. But it'll lack when it needs the real grunt with 4 passengers doing 50+ mph.

However lets wait and see what the specs are when it's released. TOV has some interesting #'s.... heh

 

Let's all remember 1 thing.

The RSX replaces the Integra coupe.
The TSX replaces the Integra sedan.

All you people bashing the TSX not having a V6 and its a 4dr sedan are comparing it to the wrong cars. I see people comparing cars that should be TL territory.

As far as power goes I wouldnt worry too much about it. There are many companies that already have turbo kits for the RSX and with minimal fitting it can be put in the TSX for sure. Just like a Integra motor into a Civic. Acura is just replacing the Integra sedan that was missing in the lineup for the past year.

And half the time those C&D people are so full of $hit and are overated.

 

The 2.4L I4 iVTEC I the '03 Accord EX I drive is fairly buzzy. It's light years ahead of older 4 bangers, but it's still fairly buzzy compared to most 6 cylinders. When it's cold out, or when I am on an incline, it actually makes the steering wheel vibrate pretty badly.

The 2.5L I6 engine in the 325 is very smooth.

I am sure the TSX will be fast, but if the engine is anything like the Accord's (which it probably will be), it has a fairly unpleasant engine note and a slightly buzzy demeanor. **EDIT. I just re-read the C&D article and it mentioned the TSX had no steering wheel buzz... Sounds good!!!

Don't get me wrong though. It's the best 4 cylinder I have driven, but it's just not as good as a good 6 cylinder IMO.

I still think the TSX will sell well though and will fit the needs of most Americans (just not some enthusiasts)

 

Let's put some money on the line. You seem to be a know it all. $10 says the graph TOV has out is pretty much accurate.

So technology that isn't as good as double vanos is producing more power and is more efficient....wow I guess that's a criticism!

0-60 according to bmwusa.com for the 325 is 7.1 seconds. Estimates say the TSX will be a tick under 7 seconds.


Uhm yes the trq let's take a look shall we?

TSX 166 ft-lbs 3230 lbs
325 175 ft-lbs 3219 lbs

You say not to look at the peak numbers but it seems that's all you are doing. The bmw will also have the 3 extra passengers and if you think 9ftlbs is going to make any significant difference....

Very well matched. Remember the entire argument i'm making is that the TSX is a fantastic competitor the 325 and a4. You're assertion that the engine and drivetrain are somehow subpar are baseless. I could see if the TSX had 184hp and 131ftlbs of trq but it just isn't the case. There isn't anything in the interior that's available in the BMW that you can't get in the TSX aside from heated steering wheel and perhaps some other small things but for the most part. Luxury isn't a question.

 

From the honda website

I can give you my address so you can send the $10.

 

The JDM and Euro Accord doesn't have the same engine has the TSX.

 

bah,

I'm only going to say this more than once more.

POWER BAND! I have been saying that the entire time. And Acura claims the car to be a "STEP BEHIND" meaning slower than the less HP powerful, but more torque BMW.

i.e. power throughout the RPM range ... Power band.

Dig up a graph for the BMW and compare. VANOS allows for more power throughout the RPM range. As it has a lot more room to adjust than does I-VTEC. And what is your definition of power? HP? or Torque? Technically the BMW engine produces more power.

And my torque statement was to disqualify the crap ass "honda has the best HP per liter" B.S. The S2000's power-band isn't anything to brag about either. You have to beat up on the clutch to run a low 1/4 mile time. Granted it is an impressive HP # for the size engine.

Know it all? At least I bring up valid arguments from my own thoughts. You are just repeating others words. I'm not web surfing looking for answers. I'm just replying with my opinions and I-VTEC isn't shit compared to VANOS. Two different applications for similar results. Honda is shooting for efficiency. BMW is shooting for a good power-band. I was only comparing at a performance level. I don't know enough to compare at an efficiency level. Honda is a conservative company, BMW is not. Thats about all I can say on that.

Estimates 0-60 ... I hope your right BMW's are underrated unlike their Japanese counterparts. Which usually seem to be overrated.

I'm off to sleep, I did quickly look for a 2.5L dual VANOS dyno. But I couldn't find one . However I only spent 1-2 minutes looking. I could honestly care less.

B.T.W. When I compared the graph, it doesn't seem to cross at 5252 when you adjust for the scale differences. Maybe I made a mistake. I'm not here to prove anything. Sorry you feel that way, I like competition, but not on something like this. I'll bug out However if you can find a dyno I'd love to see it
(for the dual vanos 2.5L)

EDIT:

I was only answering someone who stated the engine wasn't lacking. And they dumped the BMW 2.5L and some turbo 4cyl as examples by showing the PEAK HP outputs. However they had forgotten the Acura only does these numbers for a small peak in a very SHORT RPM window. I was just trying to point that out. And then getting into BMWs technology that allows for a excellent power-band.

 

you do realize that there is more to a car than straight line numbers. :o


I want you to tell me that the TSX will outhandle the 325
:P

 

(No, there is a version of the JDM Accord with the same 2.4L i-VTEC K-series engine. The factory graph is cited correctly. You can see it here: http://www.honda.co.jp/factbook/auto...200210/10.html )

The TSX will not outhandle the 325i.

 

How may low end cars with an inline 4 are they going to come out with TSX and RSX. For a honda luxury line they sure are becoming a little repetitive.

They need to come out with something stronger especially when all the other car makers are going for brute power or luxury and there seems to be a high demand these days for performance autos.

 

http://www.activeautowerke.com/dyno/...20AA%20Exh.asp

 

I might be wrong but I think I read somewhere that it's nearly impossible to run a BMW on a chassis dyno...the engine shuts down if it detects the rear tires spinning but not the front.

 

Acura really did need the TSX to fill out the line. Because of the TSX, the TL is now going upscale (more power and features). Once that is done, we will see something new for the RL.

The way I see it...
The competition has
A4 A6 A8
3 series 5 series 7 series
However Acura sorta straddles those standards.
TL RL

The TL is too big for an A4/3series but doesn't quite fit in with the A6/5. The RL is too big for the A6/5 but no where near the A8/7.
Now with the TSX filling the A4/3 niche, it frees up the TL to be upgraded and go head to head with the A6/5...and soon, we'll see an RL that can compete with the A8/7.

I get a little annoyed by people who are angry at the TSX because it's entry level and not some supercar. Be patient...it takes time to reengineer a car line.

 

ya that is the case for the e46 M3s. the car magazine couldn't dyno it on a normal dyno machine since the front wheels were not spinning

 

No matter what the power, weight, balance etc. is on the TSX, by simple virtue of the crappy tires that it wears it will never outhandle a 325!

 

The engine in the accord and the TSX are different. Accord has the 2 rocker vtec and the TSX has the 3 rocker vtec.

 

OMG you BMW sheep need to slow your roll. All I am saying is that the TSX base model is more than adequate competition for the 325 and the a4.

 

I give you evidence and you want to ignore it. My assertion is not tha the TSX is greater(although i think it is) than the 325 but a great competitor. It gives the consumer a very VIABLE option. The consumer doesn't give up on any technology or suffer from lack of power by choosing the TSX.

You keep bringing up every other engine aside from what the TSX is producing. You keep trying to make it seem that the i4 is a buzzy engine with no power which simply isn't the case.

I bring evidence. That's what you do when you want to make a legitmate argument. I give my opinion supported by facts and data. You on the other hand just give your opinion.

You say IVTEC isn't shit compared to double vanos. Why? You say it produces more power but completely ignore when I tell you that for each inch of cubic displacement the ivtec i4 exceeds the 2.5l i6 both in HP and TRQ. Sure the i6 will produce more torque; It should as the engine is larger. The numbers are compariable. Yes the i6 gives you the power earlier but if the i4 was preformed that poorly you'd see it in the performance numbers.

Remember I'm not saying the TSX is a worldbeater. My only disagreement is with you statement that the TSX drivetrain is lacking. Perhaps we should define what you mean by lacking. If you mean that one engine has 5 horses and one engine has 4.99 horses and so one engine is lacking, ok I can't disagree.

 

the cl/tl are entry class vehicle. the RL is suppose to be the flagship for acura. how many more entry class vehicles does honda/acura need?

the TSX will sell no doubt. acura will make a crap load of money from it. but what the hell are they going to offer me????

i see tl's every where on the road. so i think it safe to say its very affordable. but if you are a current cl/tl owner and a couple more years down the road when you look into purchasing a new car what the hell are you going to buy? the RL??? people tend to make more money in the future and want better products. I plan on buying a new car in 2 years, judging from the line up acura has to offer right now i dont think ill be purchasing another acura!

sidemarker

 

i think the bottom line is this: the TSX probably is a better buy then the 325 in value and performance. BUT i dont think it matters! PEOPLE WILL BUY A 325 BECAUSE ITS A BMW and thats all that matters to them!!!!!!!!

i think the a4 will be a better competitor for the TSX. Usually these people are not to showy and look at value rather then brand names!

I see lots and lots of 325s out there and those people could have purchased the tl or tl-s or even cl. The tl and cl is probably a better car but they still purchase the 325 only because its a BMW!!!!

sidemarker

 

I really think all of the negativity towards the TSX is the engine. Acura wants to be known as a luxury manufacturer. Other than the slk 230, and mercedes hatchback ( thats another travesty in itself imo) luxury cars do not have 4 cylinder engines. If the CLs-TLS engine was in the TSX, I'm sure just about everyone on this board would change their mind about it. Personally, I would buy it in a heartbeat if it had the type s engine in it.