Truck vs. SUV = OMG
02-26-2012, 02:56 PM
#41
אני עומד עם ישראל
02-26-2012, 02:56 PM
#42
Team Owner
I think the only thing that would have helped this guy is if god picked up his SUV.
Last edited by doopstr; 02-26-2012 at 02:59 PM.
02-26-2012, 03:03 PM
#43
Senior Moderator
And AWD didnt fail. It isnt designed to prevent that
It is your ignorance that has fooled you.
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02-26-2012, 03:09 PM
#44
Moderator
DRIVE SAFELY!!!
Just because we have ABS, traction control, etc doesn't mean we push it near the scope of the system.
02-26-2012, 03:24 PM
#45
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Stability control has its place. But in this case I really doubt it would have helped. Speed was the culprit.
You can only harness physics to a point.
You can only harness physics to a point.
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02-26-2012, 03:31 PM
#46
i think this is an unfortunate reminder of people with SUVs thinking they can overcome nature/physics. i see it all the time during winter storms, except not as fatal as this one.
02-26-2012, 07:01 PM
#48
Wow. I really wish that atleast the suv wasn't head on with oncoming traffic atleast the man wouldn't have seen it coming. 
02-26-2012, 07:26 PM
#49
Personally, I don't think anyone can claim what led the death of the SUV driver or what would have saved him. It's very hard in the video to determine why he lost control. As someone who drives with snow on the ground for almost six months of the year, I've witnessed loss of control at almost any speed and because of any nominal road imperfection. Road imperfections, abrupt driver behaviour, or even one tire spinning on glare ice while the others remain at a constant speed can often have dire consequences. I've even seen SUVs loosing control on glare ice because of a gust of wind combined with their high center of gravity.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
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02-27-2012, 08:29 AM
#50
Senior Moderator
Personally, I don't think anyone can claim what led the death of the SUV driver or what would have saved him. It's very hard in the video to determine why he lost control. As someone who drives with snow on the ground for almost six months of the year, I've witnessed loss of control at almost any speed and because of any nominal road imperfection. Road imperfections, abrupt driver behaviour, or even one tire spinning on glare ice while the others remain at a constant speed can often have dire consequences. I've even seen SUVs loosing control on glare ice because of a gust of wind combined with their high center of gravity.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
Snow tires are less to do about driving thru deep snow as they are about braking, steering, ice traction which most think their all seasons do just fine. Where your average snow tire will brake 15 feet shorter than the best all season tire at 30mph on snow
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02-27-2012, 09:06 AM
#51
Drifting
Was the video taken down? Sounds like it was pretty graphic...if it reminds people to slow down in bad conditions then at least the video has value to those who see it.
02-27-2012, 09:40 AM
#52
Originally Posted by IIHS by Saintor
Electronic stability control could prevent nearly one-third of all fatal crashes and reduce rollover risk by as much as 80%; effect is found on single- and multiple-vehicle crashes
02-27-2012, 05:29 PM
#57
Banned
TC/Stability control would have prevented this accident.... anybody who says the contrary just doesn't know what he is talking about.
Speed was not the primary reason.... the reason is that he was accelerating and tire traction was suddenly broken. The rest is history.
I wouldn't want a RWD car without ESP.
I wouldn't want ESP without a turn off switch.
All ESP are not equal.
On all BMW, you have the DTC button and pushing once, it will allow some slip, yaw and drifting. I love this button and I use it almost daily on snow. As far as I know, no other company offers this standard on all their cars under 70K$. The thresold is even higher on M cars for more fun.
Mercedes has also the equivalent on AMG cars (ESP Sport).
Porsche offers it as an option with the 'Sport Chrono' package.
Audi offers it with the Audi Drive Select package (3-4K$)
Chrysler offers it on SRT cars.
GM also offers it on Corvette, Camaro SS and Caddy V-cars.
Volvo on S60R (and maybe newer R-design ?)
Some others.
Yes it is possible to have fun with these ESP.
Speed was not the primary reason.... the reason is that he was accelerating and tire traction was suddenly broken. The rest is history.
I wouldn't want ESP without a turn off switch.
All ESP are not equal.
On all BMW, you have the DTC button and pushing once, it will allow some slip, yaw and drifting. I love this button and I use it almost daily on snow. As far as I know, no other company offers this standard on all their cars under 70K$. The thresold is even higher on M cars for more fun.
Mercedes has also the equivalent on AMG cars (ESP Sport).
Porsche offers it as an option with the 'Sport Chrono' package.
Audi offers it with the Audi Drive Select package (3-4K$)
Chrysler offers it on SRT cars.
GM also offers it on Corvette, Camaro SS and Caddy V-cars.
Volvo on S60R (and maybe newer R-design ?)
Some others.
Yes it is possible to have fun with these ESP.
Last edited by Saintor; 02-27-2012 at 05:39 PM.
02-27-2012, 06:05 PM
#58
Moderator
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02-27-2012, 06:54 PM
#59
The sizzle in the Steak
At ESP preventing this.Maybe he meant extrasensory perception....because that's the only ESP that would have prevented this car wreck.
02-27-2012, 08:35 PM
#62
Burning Brakes
02-28-2012, 03:16 PM
#64
Check what ESP will do for you (combined with TC); exactly preventing the kind of excessive slippage we saw in this accident. It will also do something that no driver can; controlling the brakes of an individual corner.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4
Even better at high speed of 70mph (toward the end of the video).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24...feature=fvwrel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiZjeeMExY4
Even better at high speed of 70mph (toward the end of the video).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24...feature=fvwrel
There are alot of variables, but I do know this, I was in a situation with my Acura TL SH-AWD, not on a slippery road (but a road with gravel/grit on the non-driven areas) where I had to do an evasive manuever around a guy that slammed his brakes on for a yellow light. The car started to slide, but all I did was kept my hands on the wheel, can't remember if I braked or gassed and the car righted itself back into the lane. I was amazed at how well the ESP worked.
02-28-2012, 03:46 PM
#66
AZ Community Team
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...bility_control
02-28-2012, 03:53 PM
#67
AZ Community Team
Personally, I don't think anyone can claim what led the death of the SUV driver or what would have saved him. It's very hard in the video to determine why he lost control. As someone who drives with snow on the ground for almost six months of the year, I've witnessed loss of control at almost any speed and because of any nominal road imperfection. Road imperfections, abrupt driver behaviour, or even one tire spinning on glare ice while the others remain at a constant speed can often have dire consequences. I've even seen SUVs loosing control on glare ice because of a gust of wind combined with their high center of gravity.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
The driver dying, people being scarred for life, and the tremendous sorrow felt by the semi driver are the only things we know for sure.
It's the one reason Tire-Rack probably does their ice tire testing on a indoor ice rink to get consistent track conditions.
One thing everyone who drives in poor conditions is to learn physics of tire traction. In wet, ice and snow the dynamic coefficient of friction is far less than the static.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../frictire.html
02-28-2012, 03:56 PM
#68
Evil Mazda Driver
Saintor...ESP is not a catch-all, save-all technology and what you are saying flaunts ignorance of its capabilities. It has its place but I must agree with the others in saying it wouldn't have done jack shit in this situation. Check out your owners manual and you'll probably find some kind of lawyer passage that tells you it cannot repeal the laws of physics. Hitting ice or frozen slush at high speeds can throw you so quickly that the tires simply have nothing to grip. And just like brakes in a normal situation, without grip...they are 100% useless. Also, we have no idea of the condition of his vehicle. Did he have snow or traction tires fitted or were they bald all-season tires? My previous Santa Fe had the WORST factory tires ever and even though it had stability control, a sharp corner on a particular off ramp in the rain would always make it plow wide, even at low speeds. Saying that stability control could have prevented this accident is putting far too much faith in a technology that you yourself quoted as saying could prevent "80% of single-vehicle accidents". This one is in the 20%.
Studies have also been conducted that show having electronic assists in a car makes drivers just that more confident that the technology will save them so they take greater risks behind the wheel. Case in point:
My cited source...NOT Wikipedia
People tend to forget or simply can't comprehend just how much momentum a car has so think about this; your average SUV weighs around two tons. What else do you know of that weighs two tons that regularly travels on the ground at 70+ MPH under its own power? Virtually nothing does. No animal that weighs so much can attain that kind of speed and even the animals that can are only able to do so for brief periods of time. Usually something that weighs as much as a car does is a piece of industrial machinery. It's trucked into place and bolted down where it remains until it can no longer function correctly. It doesn't move around, hitting things.
You can place all your faith in an electronic assist....that's your call. My Elantra has ABS, brake assist, ESP, crumple zones, six airbags, a collapsing steering column, seatbelt pretensioners and a myraid of other safety devices but guess what? Every single one of them is worthless if the person behind the wheel believes that their actions are without consequence because the safety devices are there for them if they go too far. There is only so much they can do.
Studies have also been conducted that show having electronic assists in a car makes drivers just that more confident that the technology will save them so they take greater risks behind the wheel. Case in point:
In a Munich study, half a fleet of taxicabs was equipped with anti-lock brakes, while the other half had conventional brake systems. The crash rate was substantially the same for both types of cab, and Wilde concludes this was due to drivers of ABS-equipped cabs taking more risks, assuming that ABS would take care of them, while the non-ABS drivers drove more carefully since ABS would not be there to help in case of a dangerous situation.
People tend to forget or simply can't comprehend just how much momentum a car has so think about this; your average SUV weighs around two tons. What else do you know of that weighs two tons that regularly travels on the ground at 70+ MPH under its own power? Virtually nothing does. No animal that weighs so much can attain that kind of speed and even the animals that can are only able to do so for brief periods of time. Usually something that weighs as much as a car does is a piece of industrial machinery. It's trucked into place and bolted down where it remains until it can no longer function correctly. It doesn't move around, hitting things.
You can place all your faith in an electronic assist....that's your call. My Elantra has ABS, brake assist, ESP, crumple zones, six airbags, a collapsing steering column, seatbelt pretensioners and a myraid of other safety devices but guess what? Every single one of them is worthless if the person behind the wheel believes that their actions are without consequence because the safety devices are there for them if they go too far. There is only so much they can do.
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02-28-2012, 05:07 PM
#69
Banned
I believe Saintor has won this argument with these videos, however
Preventing this very kind of accident is the raison d'être of Electronic Stability Program.
I have extensive experience with ESP for a long time and as safety goes, it just works as advertised; it reduces the risk of uncontrolled situations by landslides.
Mercedes was among the pioneers. It was the company that pushed it the most at first.
Originally Posted by Mercedes
Now being used by other manufacturers, stability control systems reduce the likelihood of all fatal accidents by 43 percent and fatal single-vehicle crashes by 56 percent, according to the most recent IIHS accident study! And, when the IIHS recently updated the results of their 2004 accident study, they found that stability control provides even more life-saving benefits for sport utility vehicles.
Although the safety system provides significant benefits to both cars and SUVs, sport utility vehicles with stability control are reported to have 80 percent fewer rollovers than vehicles without the system. The study also concluded that the risk of all types of single-vehicle crashes in an SUV was reduced by 49 percent.
Although the safety system provides significant benefits to both cars and SUVs, sport utility vehicles with stability control are reported to have 80 percent fewer rollovers than vehicles without the system. The study also concluded that the risk of all types of single-vehicle crashes in an SUV was reduced by 49 percent.
02-28-2012, 05:13 PM
#70
The sizzle in the Steak
02-28-2012, 05:15 PM
#71
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
WTF happened to this thread?
02-28-2012, 05:16 PM
#72
I drive a Subata.
iTrader: (1)
Saintor-ed?
02-28-2012, 05:16 PM
#73
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It is obvious for anybody with a brain.
Preventing this very kind of accident is the raison d'être of Electronic Stability Program.
I have extensive experience with ESP for a long time and as safety goes, it just works as advertised; it reduces the risk of uncontrolled situations by landslides.
Mercedes was among the pioneers. It was the company that pushed it the most at first.
Preventing this very kind of accident is the raison d'être of Electronic Stability Program.
I have extensive experience with ESP for a long time and as safety goes, it just works as advertised; it reduces the risk of uncontrolled situations by landslides.
Mercedes was among the pioneers. It was the company that pushed it the most at first.
Your argument is the equivalent of saying that air bags would have saved someone in a 75 mph impact. Once again, speed and deformation of the safety cage would override any airbags.
This is simple physics but as usual you cannot and will not back down on your opinions that do not have facts to support them.
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02-28-2012, 05:33 PM
#75
E92
There's a point where traction control would help, and a speed past that point where it wouldn't. We don't know if the SUV was past that point, so there's no sense in arguing in absolutes here.
That's not to say that ESP wouldn't help the 99% in a situation like this. Tiff's video proves that it would help in many situations. It helped him, and he was a professional race car driver.
That's not to say that ESP wouldn't help the 99% in a situation like this. Tiff's video proves that it would help in many situations. It helped him, and he was a professional race car driver.
02-28-2012, 05:40 PM
#76
Banned
If you have such extensive knowledge, then you should be willing to concede that speed was the primary factor behind this. It let to a loss of traction. Once traction is lost THAT quickly, NOTHING can stop it.
Why would speed the primary cause when the guy was following other vehicles? It doesn't make sense.
These techno-gizmos are designed to prevent the traction to be lost at an extremely early stage. And they does.
02-28-2012, 05:41 PM
#77
Moderator
02-28-2012, 06:00 PM
#79
It is obvious for anybody with a brain.
Preventing this very kind of accident is the raison d'être of Electronic Stability Program.
I have extensive experience with ESP for a long time and as safety goes, it just works as advertised; it reduces the risk of uncontrolled situations by landslides.
Mercedes was among the pioneers. It was the company that pushed it the most at first.
Preventing this very kind of accident is the raison d'être of Electronic Stability Program.
I have extensive experience with ESP for a long time and as safety goes, it just works as advertised; it reduces the risk of uncontrolled situations by landslides.
Mercedes was among the pioneers. It was the company that pushed it the most at first.
Well, I guess I don't have a brain, because I fail to see how you've "won" this argument. No one has. No one should either, instead appreciating the video to realize life can end in an instant and to drive carefully.
You've yet to demonstrate how ESP would have resulted in the driver maintaining control of his vehicle. If you have information that demonstrates ESP allows for 100% vehicle control in all situations, then please supply it.
If you can, please identify the vehicle involved as well. It seems as if the general consensus states that it was Nissan Navara. You may be interested to know the Narava now offers ESC as standard equipment. Before that it was offered in diesel versions, most being sold in quad cab configuration as displayed by the vehicle in the video. One could make the argument that this vehicle may have had ESP.
02-28-2012, 06:14 PM
#80
+1, agree it's impossible to replicate the exact conditions as to know what the coefficent of friction was. Snow, ice, water, asphat, concrete, rubber, and temperature make for a mufti-dimensional conditions that are not possible to replicate.
It's the one reason Tire-Rack probably does their ice tire testing on a indoor ice rink to get consistent track conditions.
One thing everyone who drives in poor conditions is to learn physics of tire traction. In wet, ice and snow the dynamic coefficient of friction is far less than the static.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../frictire.html
It's the one reason Tire-Rack probably does their ice tire testing on a indoor ice rink to get consistent track conditions.
One thing everyone who drives in poor conditions is to learn physics of tire traction. In wet, ice and snow the dynamic coefficient of friction is far less than the static.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu.../frictire.html
My 2011 F150 has four wheel drive, traction control, roll stability control, low tire pressure warning, and trailer sway control. A few months ago I drove it for the first time in the snow. It did not perform as expected. The electronic aids certainly helped, but being a vehicle with a high center of gravity it was clearly uncomfortable. Within a week I had changed it's tires to a set of Blizzaks mounted on steel wheels. The difference in performance was staggering. The vehicle responded as it was designed to and was much safer. And although the electronic aids worked well, they still weren't completely perfect in all situations. I think anyone with any common sense wouldn't expect them to be.