SodaLuvr

First off, I do not own a digital camera, nor would my mother allow me to take the family film camera out of the house, so I was stuck with using a buddy’s cell phone camera to snap some pictures. So until (and if) I obtain the pictures from his camera, you’ll have to take my word.

Earlier today, I replaced the valve cover gasket on the 96 Saturn SL2 w/96,000 miles. The reason for the valve cover removal was to replace the leaking spark plug tube seals that have been causing a “swimming pool” in my cylinder #1 for the last few years.

Upon removing the valve cover, I found no sludge at all. The valvetrain only had a light coating of golden varnish. There was no dark, heavy coating of varnish at all. Everything looked great. The auto shop instructor (also mechanic) wouldn’t believe me when I told him my service schedule.

For the first 30-40k miles, the car was driven about 6-8k/yr and the oil and filter was replaced every 3-4k miles/6 months. For the last 50k miles or so, the car has been driven between 10-15k miles/yr (depends on the yr), and receives an oil/filter change every 7-10k miles. Most driving consists of 1-2 mi trips with the remainder consisting of 5-10 mi in-town driving.

Now, you may ask what oil has been used. The cheapest 5w-30 oil that Kragen has on sale; Chevron for the past few years, before that, Pennzoil, Castrol GTX, Flag, Valvoline, and a few bulk fills of Kendall by the local dealership during free oil change specials. Oil Filters? The cheapest available, mostly Penseke filters when K-Mart still existed, then a few runs of the orange can, and lately, Purolator PP. A few Saturn OEM filters as well when we had free oil changes at the dealership.

Oil consumption on this car has existed since new. From what I can recall, it was about 1 qt every 4000 miles for the early part of the engine’s life (0-30k), about 1 qt every 3000 miles for the next 30k miles or so (30-60k), then 1 qt every 1500-2000 miles from then ‘till now. However, I have always kept the engine filled to full…I’ve never allowed it to run lower than ½ qt low.

In conclusion, I think everyone is overly paranoid about changing their oil/filter on a super excessive schedule to achieve decent engine cleanliness and wear control. On average, I changed my oil/filter at 2.5-3x the recommended interval, yet my engine shows no signs of sludge or even heavy varnish. In my application, there was clearly no need to use synthetic oils to achieve a relatively clean engine…or even change my oil every 3000 miles religiously. If I had kept my oil changed every 5000 miles or less, imagine how clean my engine would be.

Therefore, I plan to continue changing my oil every 5k or so from now on. The new SM/GF-4 dinos are even better than the GF3 oils this engine has been run on for much of its life, so I know that my regimen works, but I’ll still make an effort to keep the oil changed more frequently now that I do all service work. On my next new car, I plan to follow the OLM religiously and change the oil when called for with mineral oils and the orange can (or equivalent)…and not even sweat it.

In other words, those of you who think you need synthetic oil (or use it) in hopes of keeping your engine clean, or are changing your oil every 3000 miles, are probably wasting a lot of money.

danny25

I can afford the extra few dollars for Mobil 1, and peace of mind is worth a lot of money

SodaLuvr

peace of mind= obsessive compulsive

Costco

I get OCD with oil changes and tune-ups because whenever I do oil changes on someone else's car the oil looks like coffee. And by changing every 3k miles with synthetic, I get peace of mind. I let it go longer than 3k a lot of times, not a big deal to me.

Oh, and BTW...

peace of mind = priceless

Crazy Bimmer

Me turbo likes synthetic.

Plus im sure my driving style isnt the same as your moms.

subinf

3k and I'm never gonna change

SodaLuvr

Well, of course if your car REQUIRES synthetic by all means use it.

Driving style has little to do with it...heck I'm sure if my mom drove it super hard it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

lemacfar

i dont know.. my uncle used to lease lexus cars for at least 10-15 years... (finally figured out mercedes is the way to go lol)

Anyways he never ever ever changed the oil during hte lease... Think about how nasty the oil is after 40k miles..

I mean never and i'm serious lol

The last couple leases got a couple of oil changes because they came w/ the car but thats crazy...

mclarenf3387

I do it every 6 months cause I never hit the mileage, but last time I let it go to 7500 miles before I changed it and I only did it then because the oil was almost a year old.

fla-tls

1-2 miles trips and no sludge? No wonder. You're not getting it hot enough to sludge. Try baking your engine at idle for 45 minutes twice a day in bumper to bumper southern heat.

Also - try that on a Toyota 3 liter engine with known sludging issues. I've seen quite a few neglected Toyotas and they get scary looking inside. A freshly paved road has less tar than those engines.

SSMTL01

perfect examble was my 95 sc300 that had the "swimming pool" you were talking about.
-It all goes back to your driving style/habits. I probably wouldnt be too concerned about changing the oil in a saturn very often either but the TL gets it every 3500.

iTimmy

I actually agree, having performed literally ten's of thousand's of oil changes, a few things I've grown to accept. The 3k mile oil changer interval is for the cars of yesterday, newer car's just don't need it and there is no benefit to doing so - its only kept as the standard interval because the oil manufacturer's(who have a bit of a conflict of interest going on here) push it. The second truth I've learned 99% of the people who use synthetic are throwing there money away, and in many cases are doing more harm then good to there engine by using it. The third truth I've learned, I have NEVER seen an engine failure that was not caused by an outside force, be it a rock through the oil pan, a small leak that people didn't check and ran the car out of oil, etc... In other words, modern engines are so forgiving and well engineered the rest of the car will literally fall apart to the point its not worth fixing before you will experience an engine related failure due to seizing.

I was brought up with the 3k mile interval, but as I grew and my knowledge and experience with cars also grew I realized how wasteful it is. This piece of mind most of you are so convinced your getting is beaten into your brain by the oil companies for them to sell more oil - its that simple.

Crazy Bimmer

What harm?

My a4 I change it with syntheic every 6-7k miles.

My mom and dads car (NA) i change every 10k miles.

Bad?

iTimmy

Your case would not classify as most, like I said in my post. Some people may see a benefit from synthetic, in particular with forced induction(more so with turbo's). Those who do 3k mile oil change interval's with synthetic and those who swap between dyno and syn. are the ones I was refering to. Even with that said, I have never experienced a "benefit" from synthetic, its 90% marketing and it works.

Just because its your birthday doesn't mean I am going to go a day with out giving you a hard time

Crazy Bimmer

Naw, i wanted your opinion

I too think every 3k with synthetic is overkill.

But hasnt synthetic proven itself to be better than dino? Many owners get their oil tested to prove that, no? I guess that doesnt prove the wear of the engine in those oil analysis.

Infamous425

ive never done 3k oil changes. always thought that another way for shops to make more $$ of you. always done 4-7k depending if i use synthetic or not.

iTimmy

Another great point, those who get their oil tested, to prove that syn. is better does not translate to real world gains. Until the rest of the automobile is built as well as the engines of modern cars then these "benefits" are all moot... my

fsttyms1

I love how people are brainwashed by the 3000 mile crap. Hell alot of car manufactures are starting to state 7500+ mile intervals and people still do 3k. Dont you think the people who build the motors know more about the motor and what it needs than the oil placed trying to make money? I wonder how much oil could be saved if people started following what teh auto manufacture recommended and not the 3k crap.

Before my swap, my 2000 TL motor for the first 100k went 8k plus on oil change intervals with regular dino oil, then typically 15k on the 2nd 100k on the motor. Motor was still in perfect shape when i pulled it out. It also idled all day long.
Motors today are built alot better with alot better materials and tolerances.

Black Tire

I only used normal 5W-30 from the dealer oil change. My car is 7 years old now and still whisper quiet and pulls strong. Never used the expensive stuff. I do my oil changes about every 5-6K.

STL+3.0CL

Question for the Oil debate. I know its safe to go from normal oil to synthetic, but what happens if you go back? Assuming your car doesn't require synthetic. I want to put Mobil 1 synthetic in my girls car, but dont want her to forget and use the standard oil one day. As for the 3.0 It gets Valvoline extended life 5w-30 in the winter and Valvoline 10w-30. Both are changed every 5000 miles. I will check the levels and color around 3500.

SpeedyV6

fwiw, rumor has it that Mobil has cheapened the formulation of its synthetic oil to remain competitive with companies like Castrol that have historically used a looser definition of "full synthetic" when marketing their oil.

btw: In the old days Mobil 1 was guaranteed to be good for 15K mile oil change intervals, so 3,000 or even 7,500 mile recommended oil changes might be excessive.

csmeance

this is how i do my oil
4000 miles or 6 months. The service indicator does show that i have 20-35% life left but i still get it changed anyway. Also i get the techs to pull any other codes such a B service or something like that.

mclarenf3387

Porsche actually now lists oil changes at 20k mile intervals. Some of the slightly older models are 12 to 15k.

Joe5.0

I have switched to Mobil 1 (5w-30), but still will change it every 3k. I drive it hard, and it sees all climates. I plan on having it till it dies, so the longer I can make that, the better.

Does 3k intervals and synthetic make it last longer? Maybe not. But it definitely doesnt make it die sooner, and running low quality filter/oil definitely CAN.

You guys think you have it bad? Try having a bored/stroked supercharged car that burns ~ 1qt every 2k miles, needs 20w-50 synthetic oil, and has a 7qt pan.

GreenMonster

I've always laughed at classified ads that list "3k intervals and synthetic"

I used to use Mobil 1 Sync on my 94 Tbird since I wanted a LONGER drain interval. I was driving 65 mile to work and back each day at the time. I'd get the oil changed every 10K miles.

Since I only drive 23 miles to work with the CL, I'm back to using dino oil at the honda recommended drain of 7500 miles. Only need to get an oil change twice a year (not even).

SodaLuvr

1-2 mi trips with no warm-up is arguably one of those worse operating conditions for the engine...unburned fuel and water will cause buildup as it will rapidly deplete the oil's additive package. Getting the oil up to temp under normal driving is one of the best things you can do to allow the fuel/water to be burned off and removed by the PCV system...

Of course, your YMMV...I think I just lucked out.

Costco

Since it has been established that newer motors make the 3k intervals absolutely unnecessary, what do you guys recommend for a 12 year old Integra LS with 150k miles? All stock for now.

sbuswell

i use syn because it adheres to the internals of my engine instead of just passing by them like dino oil. by adhering it creates much better protection during startup. syn oil also has higher viscosity which is never a bad thing. i don't see how anyone can make a point that dino oil is better than syn oil other than the price of it. it doesn't break down as fast, it provides better lubrication protection, it has a higher burnoff point and can add a real HP benefit to an engine over dino oil. albeit small, but even a few ponies is a bonus. not to mention better fuel consumption.

SodaLuvr

Dino oil doesn't adhere to the internals of an engine ???

Oh, and synthetic oil doesn't have a higher viscosity...where did you get that from?

And all of the other benefits you mentioned may exist but are so small that they are negligible to most drivers on the road today.

SpeedyV6

Speaking of synthetic I notice that my car runs quieter with Castrol Syntec than it did with Mobil 1. Also, when I ran Mobil 1 it would take ~ .5 - .8 seconds for the low oil pressure light to go out right after I started my car. With Castrol Syntec it takes less than .2 seconds for the low oil pressure light to go out. The funny thing is that for most people, Mobil 1 is the gold standard of over-the-counter motor oils.

SpeedyV6

In the old days Castrol Syntec used to brag about how its formulation would be slightly negatively charged so that it would stick to your engine better after shutting the engine off. Also, and I am speculating here, the capillary action that can pull oil up through a fine crevice may be different with synthetic oil, but I am just pulling this part out of my butt.

Costco

Soda I respect your knowledge of motor oils so I wanna ask, is Royal Purple really that great? Or is it only recommended in highly tuned motors, or not recommended at all?

At $7 a quart RP isn't cheap at all, I'll stick with Mobil 1 for now....

gocubsgo55

I'm at University right now so I'm not really driving much. But when I have been driving recently, I have noticed my oil "magically disappearing" somewhere. No leak, ground is dry as sand, right? So I add 3 quarts and FINALLY the dipstick is level. Well, 1 day later after driving for about 30 minutes the previous day, the dipstick reads low . I'd say a damaged exhaust valve .

But when the engine is good, and on my parent's, it's gotta be synthetic. I myself use Mobil 1. Think about it this way, as soon as you drive away you're throwing money never to be seen again away, so why not make your "poor investment" last a long, long time?

gocubsgo55

if i may jump in for a sec: RP is renown for being used with boosted or high compression engines. The performance shop I go to uses it in their oil changes and sells it for $8 a quart. And yeah, I stick to Mobil 1

vishnus11

As far as intervals go, I 110% agree that 3k mile/per change is way, way too much overkill. That just marketing BS from yesterday that express oil change places preach to retain customers. Truth is, modern oils can go for a heck of a lot longer than 3000 miles.

Like McLaren said, one of the most telling examples is that a 2007 Porsche Boxster S requires an oil change every 20000miles!!! And you know Porsche expects a car of this calibre to be driven hard at high speeds, and high rpms.

However I don't agree with dino = synthetic. Synthetic has many small, proven benefits that in my eyes are worth the extra cost. Especially in a highly "stressed" motor such as the S2000 where the piston speed is astronomical, I'd prefer the peace and protection that synthetic offers.

ChrisQ1980

I don't mind paying the price for Mobil 1 oil and changing it every 5k, even though it comes out as clean as it went in. Why take the chance? As the oil gets dirtier, loses it's additive package you are using more gas since there is more friction, wearing out the motor all because you can't take the time to change it? That makes no sense to me.

fast-tl

I have never seen my exact position stated so eloquently! Where's the RoadRage guy when you need him. He needs to read this workd for word. All the formulations that are spouted and oil analysis at $20 a pop. The reality is that paid engineers deisgn and assemble automotive engines to run on a lowest common denominator of fluids, with some exotic exceptions (turbos, supercars), and these guys must know their stuff when they specify oil quality, else their warranty claims would be through the roof!
I ran Mobil 1 in my Z28 for three years/43K miles, and what did it net me? Nothing that I can tell except a lighter wallet. I did take the car to the strip a few times, and I DID "enjoy" the 330+hp, but conventional oil would've been just fine. I'm glad to hear soemone educated in thing automotive NOT buy into the hype.

Sometimes peace of mind = financial ignorance!

SodaLuvr

I just sent RR an e-mail. Perhaps he'll respond...

I think RP is a decent oil if you can get it for a good price. But then again, my cars will never see any synthetic oil unless it's specifically required.

fast-tl

Frist, you'd have to explain what "chance" you're taking by using the conventional dino oil recommended by the people who actually designed and built the car? I know my maint req. light comes on every 7500 miles, so why spend money in between those intervals?

If we were seeing blown up Acuras at 50,000 miles that were run on dino oil and changed every 7500 miles, then I'd say we have something to worry about, but many a Honda engine manages to survive to well over 100K running on the facotry service schedule or less without the added expense of synthetic oil. I don't see the real-world advantage. It's like buying a $60 box of Tide; it may well clean a bit better but what's the real gain when regular Bounce still gets your clothes clean? The bottom line is: what's WRONG with conventional oil, and why switch if there's no problem with it?

iTimmy

That's a great point that I nearly forgot. Someone mentioned the high interval of new porsche's. Prior to purchasing my new G I was thinking of keeping my TSX and getting a BoxsterS as a fun vehicle. Upon searching the forums there were two common problems RMS(rear main seal) leaks and low mileage engine failure. It is more common to see a porsche with the RMS leak(syn. oils don't do seals good, though some blame it on a mis-aligned crank or machined hole in the block), and the engine failures no one can seem to explain, except you hope it happens while your still under waranty. Those reason made me not want to get the car, a lot to risk to drive an already over priced car.