SouthernBoy

First off, you are to be congratulated for realizing and knowing that you both need and want to learn correct methods and not learn bad habits. Most people ignore this for some reason, probably because the way they learn is, to them, the correct way. Unfortunately more often than not, they learn from a relative or friend who already has bad habits so they adopt those habits without knowing the consequences.

The first thing I would suggest to you is to learn how a clutch assembly works and how a manual transmission operates. Not to the depth of knowing how to disassemble and reassemble one of course, but so that you will understand terms and develop an intuitive understanding of what is actually taking place when you operate a manual transmission. This, in turn, leads to a certain mechanical "logic" that will aid you as you learn and actually help to keep you from developing bad habits because you will know what is best for your car. Here is a link you might find informative. Read down to post #30, then follow the three links I give in that post for some more info. Feel free to ask questions.

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...7#post11888357

4cruizn

If it doesn't have three pedals, I won't buy it.

majin ssj eric

Lol! I thought this thread was about OWNER'S manuals!! I was thinking, "well, it is getting rarer to get a full set of books with a used car purchase these days..."

SouthernBoy

I fear this is coming because of a number of reasons. Economies of scale, emissions, move to all electric cars, the diminishing manual market... these are just a few of them. For folks like me and other diehard manual lovers on this site, we may be left with some 4-cylinder stink-o-wagons and that just ain't gonna work for me. My left foot and my right hand is not going to know what to do.

Legend2TL

That's the number I see for all consumer 4 wheel vehicles in the US for getting MT. Not sure but I thought MT for the Euro market was >70% and Asia >50%. America is a strange place for transmissions demographics.

Legend2TL

I agree, it's diminishing and I think the main factor is emissions for the Euro and Asian manufactures. They already have the MT for their markets, it's the question of importing and getting emissions certification for the MT's.

I still believe there will be MT in Accords, Civics, and 3 series, and others 2 decades from now.

teranfon

I hope so, but I'm still hesitant to think that manuals will increase or even maintain their current numbers. Along with manufacturing and emission requirements, the continual improvement of automatic gearboxes may also lead to demise of the manual.

Another consideration is China. I suspect NA and European markets will have less of an influence on the automotive landscape than they do now within a few short years. China will become the premier marketplace, and I'm very curious to see what their preferences will be.



Terry

Legend2TL

Last time I was in France I took the Air France bus from downtown Paris to the airport. This standard city metro bus (~60 passengers) had a 5MT. Still remember the driver rowing through the gears in stop and go traffic to the airport.

dallison

the 1st car i ever drove was an 83 renault 3 or 4 speed. I destroyed that trans learning to drive.....

knavinusa

Many people in China still drive manuals, mainly for the fuel savings.

And it's definitely worth learning how to drive a manual. Even if you aren't an enthusiast, you never know when you might be forced to drive one.

black label

It's the only excuse for one! The reason they are going to clutchless manuals are they are faster than the best test drivers! When the goal is ULTIMATE preformance, you have to do everything you can to be fast.

I'm with you on that one until we reach the 500hp mark, then I think's it's truly more fun to deal with paddles or full automatic. You no longer need to have a manual clutch to extract performance at that level.
It's not the transmission, it's the limitations of the human body, the machines are just faster than we are.

Purists are always resistant to change.

'01White3.2CL

i too think a manual transmission is the epitome of driving and should be in any FUN car. I would NOT however want a manual as a daily driver because I drive 250 miles per week with plenty of traffic. Some would still want stick in those situations, but not for me.

to get to the point, I see myself having an auto daily driver, but always having that manual fun sports car in the future for when I really want to drive.

As for Ferrari, think about it guys: Ferrari is not the same as it used to be. the 458 has lost the Ferrari charm and I personally think its an extremely ugly car, which is not like Ferrari. Either way, with the car being as it is, I cannot see it with a full manual transmission at all...it simply doesn't fit the car one bit IMO.

anyways: Porsche, BMW, and manual transmissions FTMFW!!!

speedemon90

Thanks,

I'll take a look at the thread later, I've already seen some videos of how a manual transmission operates, curiosity got to me.

SouthernBoy

And that, my friend, is how to do it. In a nutshell, here's a couple of things to give you a start.

• Use as few (low) RPM's as your engine and the conditions support to start off. This reduces clutch slip and makes for a smoother launch.
• Never hold your car on a hill with the clutch. That's what brakes are for.
• Don't keep the transmission in gear with the clutch depressed while sitting at a traffic light. Put it in neutral and get your foot off of the clutch.
• Never rest your foot on the clutch pedal when driving.
• Never "ride" the clutch any more than absolutely necessary.
• If you don't know how to properly downshift, avoid downshifting as much as possible.

Heat is the enemy of a clutch and any time your clutch is allowed to slip, there is friction and thus, heat. Of course, a certain amount of slipping is both necessary and desired (you have to slip the clutch to get moving). But the goal is to keep this to a minimum. You are off to a great start because you are curious and have expressed a desire to learn to operate a manual transmission correctly. Take your time, put in the effort, and apply both logic and knowledge and you will be just fine.

Legend2TL

I agree over time we see manufacturers dropping MT option from models. But every so often some manufacturer brings it back to a model, the 2G TL had no MT but Acura included a 6MT for the 3G, MB had a 6MT option for the 2G C-class in 2000.

China is a good point, never thought about that market. My brother got back from a one week business trip to Shanghai and said the amount of traffic seemed about the same as NYC where he lives.

NwTSXmt

Avatar...I'm in

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Very well said.

Something I usually do when I get behind the wheel of a car that Im not familiar with is put it into gear and slowly let the clutch out (not touching the accelerator) till the rpms start to drop, just to find the engagement point.

Do you think thats bad for the clutch?

4cruizn

These are great pearls of wisdom. I daily drive a car with 435,000 miles on an original clutch. I can claim 340,000 of those miles. While it's true that most of the miles I've put on are highway, I still adhere to all of what you mentioned above.

To add to your list - clutch life can also be prolonged with conservative driving habits (i.e. in a traffic jam - I'd rather roll in 1st/2nd gear at 10 mph constantly, than be speeding up to 25 and slowing down to zero repeatedly). I shift as little as possible. If I'm in 3rd gear and I know I can comfortably make the corner without downshifting, I won't shift.

I love love my 6MT.

speedemon90

thanks

I've already decided that my next car will be a manual, lets hope that doesn't change. Hopefully after understanding how it operates and learning all the kinks to keep the clutch in good shape, I will be a good manual driver. Once I also feel that I can drive a manual pretty well, I plan on autocrossing. So I know my clutch won't get the best treatment all the time, but I'll try not to be to harsh on it, when autocrossing. (I'm assuming doing harder shifts, and shifts at higher rpm's wears down the clutch more, correct me if I'm wrong.)

SouthernBoy

No, it's not because you probably only do this for a moment and the clamping pressure is not that strong at the initial point of engagement. There is another technique I use for this sometimes, but it is something I generally do not bring up because if done incorrectly, it can result in damaged dog teeth.

SouthernBoy

Thank you. I am really impressed by the miles you have managed on your clutch (and whomever had the car before you). That speaks all that is needed of the fact you are doing things correctly. I also "time" my speed and positions in heavy traffic to reduce clutching even though I have this down pretty much pat.

Let me guess. You double clutch your downshifts... right? Or at least rev-match them.

SouthernBoy

Hard shifting, yes. Shifting at higher engine speeds, not necessarily - unless it is also a hard shift. Think about it. An engine produces torque which is transmitted through the clutch and into the transmission where it is multiplied by gear ratios. If the clutch is tasked with having to "fight" a hard revving engine against a gear ratio which is not that low, there is going to be more wear on the clutch than in the lower gears. And even in those gears, the clutch is the "give" point.

AsianRage

Wow, what a great marketing scheme for Car&Driver.

teranfon

I hope some manufacturers still continue to offer them, but we'll see. I learned on a manual and most of my cars have been standard shift and would like to have that option in the future. There's something wonderful about a perfectly matched upshift or downshift. Hell, I don't even use the clutch any more once underway. I'm certainly open to new technologies and practices however, and admit many of the new automatics and electronic shifting manuals have really impressed me. Newer technologies aren't always readily embraced, but tend to become desired over time. I can remember a point in the eighties where enthusiasts vehemently claimed that traction control and antilock brakes would be the death of performance driving.

I'm really curious as to what the automotive climate will be in China in the upcoming years. I definitely think it's an automotive marketplace that will eventually eclipse our own.



Terry

teranfon

Going to have to disagree with you on this one P. Whether an automatic or manual, a car should always be in gear while on a roadway, including traffic lights. The amount of wear on the pressure plate and throw-out would be negligible, and from a safety standpoint it's best to have the car ready to move in any situation.



Terry

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

Do you mind bringing it up? Im just curious, I most likely wont try it (on my car ).

speedemon90

People have always told me when you come to a red light, put the car in neutral and get off the clutch. Leaving the clutch depressed while sitting in first gear is not good for long periods of time, thats what I've heard. Never heard an explanation as to why.

SouthernBoy

I understand your point and I have been in several serious situations where I had to react quickly from a stop light. My car was in neutral and I reacted as I would have expected. One time in particular in 1998, it saved my life.

I do stand by my statement and the reason is primarily to reduce wear on the release bearing as you mentioned.

teranfon

Some claim that the throw-out bearing will wear prematurely if the clutch is continually depressed. There seems to be some who agree with this, and still others who don't. The manuals I have rebuilt have never exhibited premature bearing wear, but admittedly they were not driven by me when new.

At a safety standpoint I was taught that a vehicle should be able to move at all times. I suppose this is a matter of preference, but I always teach others never to have a car in neutral at a red light.



Terry

teranfon

I recall once sitting at a light in my '67 Shelby and looked up briefly in the rear view only to see a pickup sliding towards me. I instinctively rolled off the clutch (the car was in gear) while looking both ways and accelerated forward about ten feet. The pickup stopped about three inches from my rear bumper. Scared the hell out of me, but I shudder to think of what would have happened if I had been hit from behind.


Terry

SouthernBoy

Ok, but I do not recommend people doing this unless and until they really know what they're doing.

You disengage the clutch completely, move the shifter just past neutral but not into first gear - you will notice a "smooth" point there of many two inches. Now move the shifter slowly towards first gear but not into first gear and let out the clutch just a little. As the friction disk makes contact with the flywheel and pressure plate, you will hear and feel the dog teeth grinding against the mating hub. This is where initial engagement begins.

Once again, DO NOT attempt this if you don't know exactly what you're doing. You could seriously damage your transmission.

SouthernBoy

You know I respect your knowledge and opinions, Terry. I just happen to disagree on this one. One does have to weigh everything they do in their driving experiences and consider all manner of things: safety, longevity, legality... you name it.

I have taught people over the years to constantly be aware of their surroundings (a pet mantra thing with me). At lights, do not pull too close to vehicles in front of you. Always look for ways out of an extreme situation. And never take anything for granted. Do I always practice these things? No. But I try to do so most of the time.

SouthernBoy

The incident in 1998 for me was this. I was stopped at a light in my '96 Ford Contour SE. It was a four-lane highway with a 55 MPH speed limit and I was in the far inside lane next to the left hand turn lane (which was really for U-turns since this was a 'T' intersection). I saw a flatbed semi loaded with three very large cement sewer sections bearing down on the lane on my right. Since there were several cars in those other lanes and I was the only car in my lane, the semi changed lanes into my lane, heading straight for me. I immediately shot in front of the left hand lane's car to avoid being hit and the semi went through the red light doing probably over 60 MPH, just missing cars crossing from the street which had the green. Had I stayed in that lane, I would not have stood a chance.

teranfon

No problem P, as you know I respect your opinions as well. We wouldn't be friends if we didn't respect each other, regardless of the varying opinions at times.

I have honestly never lost a throw-out or rebuilt a transmission because of it, but each of us has different experiences. And I will always personally feel more comfortable with a car in gear whether I am driver or passenger.

Take care.



Terry

CL6

I had a new transmission put into my Bus and I often depress the clutch when I'm in gear taking turns or waiting at lights. 8 years later driving up a huge San Francisco hill every day home from work for 4 years and my throwout bearing was fine so was the clutch. A new throwout bearing is about $40. No big deal.

Maybe modern cars aren't as sturdy?

Rick_TL-S

Except Ferrari is obsessed with remaining on building some of the fastest track cars in the world, & to keep breaking records, their F1-SuperFast II has to be advanced more & more.

Regardless of what the customer will use the car for, they're still buying it for the name & the name behind Ferrari means top-of-the-line performance. According to one rep at Ferrari, since nobody bought manuals, the 458 was designed for the 7-speed dual-clutch to help maximize performance. The rep. said a gated manual was outdated technology.

Here's also a quick fact. In 2009, Ferrari offered manual transmissions to those who wanted it because people said, "Ferrari, please give us a 6-speed option". Guess what. Nobody bought the 6-speed in any big numbers, thus, Ferrari dropped it.

This article says the California will be the last available with the 6-speed, but says 0-60 drops to 4.2. For those who care (& they're out there), that's a near-second slower to 60 than when MT got a California there in 3.5 (others average 3.7). Fuel mileage also drops surprisingly.
http://www.luxist.com/2010/03/22/end...h-manual-tran/

civicdrivr

iTrader: (9)

.5 seconds slower but much more fun to drive in my book.

Nothing will replace putting the left foot and right hand to work while behind the wheel.

SouthernBoy

Legend2TL

The clutch in while at a stop light is a pretty controversial topic for wear on the release bearing and the main bearings in the motor. That bearing force is also transferred to the main shell bearings as well.

Also I respect Southernboy and Terafon opinions, both are extremely knowledgeable in vehicles.

SG81

iTrader: (1)

i'd rather take the bus than drive an auto