Maximized

The 645i and 650i coupes I've driven, exihited nothing that he mentioned. The only thing that I can agree on is ergonomics. The interior of the 5/6/7 series is love it or hate it. I wish they would get rid of I-drive personally, but it's not bad once you get used to it.

gavriil

What do you mean?

Dan Martin

I agree with you on the ergonomics gav, I thought the same thing when I was driving. The indicators were very odd for me. I'm sure I could get over the I-Drive with time, but why should I have to? There's nothing wrong with having a knob to adjust the volume, or a button to turn something on. I don't want to use voice controls either.

I'm not sure why anyone would buy a 6 series. The M6 is nice, but I'd rather have the M5.

Crazy Bimmer

Im so confused, whats your price range Gav?

Would driving a z06 everyday be too harsh for ya?

How about for kicks how about driving.....

Jaguar XK
911
RS4
XLR

gavriil

You should see how confused I am

A Z51 C6 was too harsh for me. So no way on the Z06.

911, too much money when I price it the way I'd want it and something tells me it will not be blow me away the way the C6 did.

The RS4 is so oversold, I'd have to wait for ever to even buy one, let alone drive one.

I have driven the XLR last year on a closed course. I'd buy the XLRV for the price of the base model is the bottom line. Otherwise the base is too slow and the V is too much money.

I know it's not easy. Let me drive some more cars down the road. FOr now I will wait for a few weeks, possibly months.

Crazy Bimmer

You and Beltfed said the RS4 wouldnt sell.

gavriil

^ I did? This is a very limited production car, so even if it does not sell, it will have a waiting list in the beginning.

Crazy Bimmer

Oh i was wrong, Beltfed said if they make a lot of them then they wont sell.

But its very limted so.......

I know Continental Audi in Naperville had a black one in stock when i was there two weeks ago. Give them a call?

Beltfed

The thing just came out a few months ago, give it time.....the RS6 sold well also when it first dropped.

A $73k, manual only AWD small sedan......limited appeal. Most people that want one can't afford it.

Maybe Audi will learn its lesson and not overdue the amount of cars it brings in.

If that's the case, then the RS4 will not rot on dealers lot's like the RS6 did.

And there are dealers that have RS4s in stock, they aren't ALL sold order cars.

West6MT

gavriil will never be happy,...........

gavriil

^ Probably my problem and the reason I cant find anything to satisfy me for its price!

Or maybe that also shows how good the CLS is for its price.

I got the car for 30,900 six years ago almost to the month. I can sell it for 15K or so today (it only has 49K miles). So in 6 years, this car lost half its value, maybe a little more than half, which is 15K. I see and drive the other cars, then look at their prices and cant believe the prices for what they provide.

However, I am tired of this stupid tranny. Otherwise it's in great shape.

Beltfed

The two cars coming out soon that you should look at, which would be a logical move from the CLS.

Is the 335 and 07 G35.......new technology, speed, comfort, practical, good handling/overall performance, fairly priced, etc.

F900

I feel the same way about the CLS, I kept comparing (price wise) it to other cars I was interested in.

If you like the interior, I think you should try and look for a cert 645ci coupe, (with sports package and preimum sound) I think its the next step up from the CLS.

There are some around here with low miles ( under 10K) that can be bought for around 60K. You say there over priced buy what current large sports coupe is not.

Trust me, just like you i've looked and drove most of the cars you have, out of all the CLK500 appealed to me most, but comparing it to the CLS which is easy to do, I got the impression for 65K+ i'm really wasting money here and gave it back.

Other than a bigger engine, a merc badge and the back windows that go down... CLS has everything else and more the CLK does have standard and costs more money like a better sound system, heated seats, navi, a extra cup holder....

Add all this to the CLK your well over 70K...


If you don't like the BMW 6 series coupe then the only thing I have to say to you is goodluck lol, because right now for the money (other than a Acura 06TL) which is not a coupe, there is nothing out there that comes close money wise to the CLS.



Btw the 645ci has a 18.5 gallon tank will do about 400miles on a full tank. Not bad considering the CLS is just 1 gallon a bit less in the Full tank.


Also just to compare interior specs Acura CLS Vs BMW 6series coupe

BMW 6series coupe

Interior - Passengers

shoulder room rear (in) 49.4
shoulder room front (in) 56.4
leg room rear (in) 28.8
leg room front (in) 42.0
headroom rear (in) 36.7
headroom front (in) 37.8
Passenger Volume (cu ft) 81


Acura CLS

Interior - Passengers

Internal dimensions: front headroom (inches): 37.5
rear headroom (inches) 36.7
front hip room (inches): 52.9
rear hip room (inches): 50.4
front leg room (inches): 42.4
rear leg room (inches): 33
front shoulder room (inches): 56.4
rear shoulder room (inches): 54.2
interior volume (cu ft): 90

Bananaairsoft

" WHY THE HELL DO YOU HAVE TO DO THAT? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CONTROLS THERE? If I worked at BMW, I'd loose the argument and later be laid off since as I said it's clear this is a company ran by engineers."
You said it bro. BMW is run by engineers.

M TYPE X

650Ci has iDrive, and that bothers me. The taillamps could be cooler, too.
Otherwise the car looks and drives the part of a GT cruising coupe, and has
the tiny rear seats to match!

gavriil

Yeap. Unfortunately the latter comes out 6-9 months from now.

gavriil

Yeap! You summed it up there very nicely.

I will wait for now and get off this rush to buy something. I need to distract myself with something else for a few weeks/months

gavriil

LOL

It's almost identical.

gavriil

Actually I was just reading this:

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1/TOC01ARCHIVE

gavriil

But if it cost 45K it'd be worth its money. At 80+ sorry.

GreenMonster

Those would be on my list as well...

Beltfed

Coupe yes, but you wouldn't be interested in the sedan?

Glad to see that Mr. Green also agrees.

gavriil

Sedan? Naah...

chiawei

Yes there is. It's the button to unlock your door with the remote. Or with keyless go, this is programable.

I also work for a major hardware/software company in the bay area. I have to totally disagree with you on I-drive and reduction of control.

Yes, I-drive takes time to learn. But after at most 30 minutes, I-drive is very easy to use. Why do I want to use tiny buttons that I need to take my eyes off the road.

You can program the steeering wheel buttons to control anything. The volume control is also on the wheel. How difficult is it to memorize 4 main menu and its direction. It's simply moving up, down, left, right, turn the knob to scroll, and push the knob to select.

It beats looking down and side way.

There are some issue with layout of the menu structure. Such as sound tuning is under the setting menu not under the entertainment menu.

But it's not an issue for anyone that take 30 minutes to learn it.

Plus, BMW's voice recognition is one of the best out there. So this is really a mute point.

Actually I found this to be a great feature after extended use.

Why not? If there is progress to be made why not re-learn. I really fail to see your point here. May be we should all go back to stone age and simply stay put to use our 2 legs.

To be fair, the regular 6 was never intended to be a CLK550 competitor. Nor it was designed that way. 6 main compeition is the SL, which unlike the CLK aims at different crowd. 650i is actually quiet fast, it just too smooth and you really don't feel that way.

I think the biggest issue you had with 6 was simply you went into it looking for a nimble and tight car. But 6 is a luxury coupe/convertible hence it will not be as fun to drive as a c-class based CLK. Two different car for different purpose. If you drive the SL, you probably have the same complaints about it as compare to CLK550 coupe.

As far as ergonomics issue goes, I really think this is way blown out of proportion by lack or fear of learning. I had my M5 for 9 months now. The I-drive is extremely easy to use. Just learn the basci knob control and there is nothing to it.

I will take it over CLK's command any time. Talk about poor design. The command has tons of buttons, and a lot of sub menu buttons are not even marked on the unit. So basically you have to take your eyes move it downward out of sight of traffic and look at tiny buttons on each side of screen to choose the items you wanted. How is that safer and easier to use than I-drive?

GreenMonster

I'm a coupe guy, but I might consider a sedan for my next car... I've only had my CL for 3 1/2 years (50K miles), so I'm probably good for another couple of years... The CL is paid for, so maybe I'll keep it for longer. I'm a cheap bastard, so I don't think I would consider a car for much over 30K (the 335 the way I'd want it would be over 40K tho')...

Gav's looking at cars that would be out of my self imposed budget. I could buy a more expensive car, but I just can't see spending too much of my income on a depreciating asset. There are some decent bangs for the buck for under 40K tho'. The TL comes to mind as does the 3 series and G35...

My list will probably change over the next year or so, but I'll be looking to buy again in Sept/Oct. 2007 (when my CL turns 5 y/o)... I'll have to start test driving next summer...

My list (slanted toward RWD coupes under or around 40K):

Acura Coupe ??
Bmw 3 series (maybe a used 330 coupe or sedan ??)
Ford Mustang
Infiniti G35c
Lexus IS350 (used sedan or new coupe if Lexus makes one ??)
Subie Legacy GT

gavriil

Dude, I am talking about a button on lovely door that says, lock down, unlock up. Simple stuff that all cars have. What remote are you referring to?


Who says they have to be tiny? Large buttons for major controls like you find in our Acura CLS or most Japanese cars and even many American cars now, is what most people want.


You dont understand. People are not bitching about iDrive because they cant memorize a set of scrolls and ups and downs, or cannot do that. It's that they do not have to and it does not make sense to do so, because simple controls like HVAC should be within hand's reach and should not take more than ONE operation, may that be a push of a button or a turn of dial, BECAUSE IT'S DISTRACTING THE DRIVER FROM THE ROAD AND OTHER THAN INCOVENIENT IT'S ALSO DANGEROUS.


You mean a moot point?

Anyway, I just do not see anything moot about simple controls for major operations within a vehicle's interior. Every one is complaining about it. Even BMW owners. Look at the latest JD Power report which includes ergonomics. BMW got hammered because of the above issue.

And why is that? Did you find it difficult or inconvenient with the "regular" way of operating your indicator lights?

That's my point. There is no progress in this case at all. HOw did BMW make anything easier exactly?

Now you sound like the smart progressive and me the old man idiotic conservative. Dude I love technology, I work for a tech company like yourself. I understand how technology can help you but it's very easy to let technology make your life miserable if overused. And in the case of most recent BMWs it has been overdone. There a million other things they should be putting their energy on to find better solutions like saving weight for example.

You're partially right. The 6 sits right in the middle of the CLK / SL "gap". Not going directly against the SL though, but certainly not the CLK either.

I dont know....the CLK is supposed to be smooth too, I felt that torque like it hit me with a hammer. Cant say the same for the new engine in the 6 series. Like I said, it needs another 20% torque to feel right (in the case of the cabrio at least).

You're probably right.

Also probably right.

Trust me, I have no fear about learning new tech. I am 34 years old and I still build my own desktop part by part. I do heavy video editing, arrange music with synths and complicated sequencer programs that run on PCs. It's not that.

You're probably one of five people that will honstly say the above and truly mean it with no issue of saying something bad about a very expensive product they bought. Sorry.

And sure one can get used to something after a while, no matter HOW non ergonomic it might be. We've seen worse than what BMW has done with their interiors lately with other products.


Certainly the CLK dash had more button than the 6 series and maybe any BMW of late I have been in to. And also many of them are small which is one of my complaints about many Euro cars. Porsche for example is probably the ultimate in the case of small buttons used.

However, I felt more at home in the CLK than the BMWs I drove with iDrive in the past, or just sat in. I know what most of these buttons do and the rest will take some reading to do, however I will know that ONE button push and SOMETHING will happen. Instead of going into menus like I am using an online wizard for filling out a credit card application or something rediculous like that.

It's about simplicity and simplicty depends on how quickly and easy I can change an operation using ONE control in my car.

gavriil

I think that typical 335s will run for 50K after tax and all fees.

And you're a smart guy for that. That's the mind set I followed for the past 10 years and paid off cars and the house and you wont believe how fast money accumulates when one has no major bills to pay.

The thing is though that I will not let VALUE not be a factor even in this next car purchase. If I feel the car is not worth its price, I simply will not get it. Right now, I like the CLK550 but I feel it really does not worth its price. For 10K less, yes. The Corvette probably comes the closest and now I want to wait for the 335, see how that would feel.

You know what? I was reading the latest MT mag today and it said that there are unconfirmed reports of a 300HP Type S TL coming out for 2007 and was thinking. If that think looks like the A Spec TL and gets more torque and 300HP and sells for around 40K fully equipped, it might be a car that I would need to test drive. Seriously. And it also comes with a stick!

I sometimes feel like getting in a G35C 6MT sometimes (for a year or two) becasue I cant even imagine what dealers will do to get me into one if I showed real interested and started hard negotiations for one!

GreenMonster

Yeah, it's definitely going to be up there... I probably should have said that the 330 spec'd the way I'd want it would be over 40K....

I'm about 10 years behind you... I should have bought a house in my twenties, but decided to spend my money... ah... on other things. Once I pay off the house, I'll be able to rationalize increasing my car budget...

Unless you wait for the 335, I have a feeling you'll be in a vette...

Crazy Bimmer

If you like the CLS so much then why not get the current TL with a 6-speed or is it because its not a coupe?

I mean its still a great bang for the buck with a nice interior.

gavriil

That's what I wrote above. I am pretty sure I will give it a test drive however. We'll see from there.

Crazy Bimmer

Ahh figured sedan would be ok since you drove the CTS-V.

Also do you plan to drive the vette in the snow if you get it? How capable is it in the snow even with snow tires?

picus

FWIW, production date of my 335i just got moved to Sept 12th. CA said they should be appearing for test drives last week of August/first week of Sept. Maybe a week sooner in major US cities (so Chicago should see 'em soon).

chiawei

There is an unlock and lock button in the center console by the vent. Again reachable by hand. So it does exist. And is also programable.

Really. I guess you havent see how buttons are now being integrated into the screen for japanese cars or use of a controller. Last time i check, Infiniti is doing similar design as well. Pretty much big three german are also sold on cosolidating controls.


Wrong and wrong.

1. some HVAC control are within reach. How many of you adjust vent setting after having the automatic climate control? The automated climate control is outside of I-drive. So you are dead wrong on this.

2. How? Majority of Japanese car's A/C control are now embedded in the LCD screen (other than temperature control) for cars with navigation. How is this different from BMW embedded other control in I-drive screen. The only difference is that BMW screen sits higher next to the eye and has much easier control since all you need is to understand basic control of I-drive controller.

SO ARE YOU TELLING ME THAT TAKING YOUR EYES OFF THE ROAD TO ACCESS A/C SCREEN ON A TOUCH SCREEN IN WHICH YOU HAVE TO SEE THE BUTTON TO PRESS IT IS SAFER?????

YOU ARE NOT MAKING SENSE HERE.


Every side has two coins. I can tell you if you go to any BMW forum, pretty much everyone is more than convinced that I-drive is the way to go.

Why do i need to hold on the indicator light to temporary flash? When on european car i can simply tab and it and do temporary flash for me. Yes, I am lazy. I actually like this feature.

They made things quiet easier then you made it out to be.

When using navi, I don't need to take my eyes off the road to enter the address. Which I need to do on my wife's old TL, my current minivan, my E55...etc.

To me that is more safe than taking my eyes off the damn road and have to make sure I touch the right buttons on the damn touch screen. Which often sits much lower than I-drive screen.

If I am more lazier, I can use voice prompt to enter pretty much everything by voice.

SHOW ME HOW TOUCH SCREEN WITH SOFTBUTTONS MAKES YOUR DRIVING SAFER.

The simple truth it is not that easier.

Again, you are used to old style in which buttons dominates the console. I like the way in which buttons are gone and i don't have to take my eyes off the road.

Crazy Bimmer

Some people just dont like to change.

I actually enjoyed driving my buddys E90 with the one touch to turn on the indicator lights. I thought it was like paddle shifting where it only takes one quick movement to flip the signal on. It was somthing different than just the plain boring old ways.

It didnt have Idrive but the A6 loaner i had was easier to figure out. MMI was pretty cool and after 20min of playing with it i was able to fly through the screens pretty quickly.

I thought Idrive/MMI was a terrible idea till i actually had real seat time playing with it. I used to be one of those guys who LOVED lots of buttons so i always bashed the 7series when it first came out. But now im starting to see why they went with this.... keeps things fresh and interesting for the most part.

But like my Father, he refuses to get a car where it takes an extra step to change radio stations. So its not for everyone.

mrdeeno

big difference between what Infiniti's controller does and idrive.

for example, on my m, i have 4 ways to change radio stations (or cd disc or track)...1. voice, 2. steering wheel controls, 3. buttons by the radio, 4. with the controller / screen.

come to think of it, the ONLY thing I need the controller for is for setting up different settings (auto on/off headlight sensitivity, navi settings, default comfort settings, etc.)...but all the functions can be access, including navi, WITHOUT using the controller at all.

Yes, the Japanese are integrating everything into a main controller like the germans...but unlike BMW, they aren't getting rid of the good 'ole ways of doing things.

West6MT

Does anyone else want chiawei to STFU, because I certainly do. Just thought I would point that out.



Oh, and Idrive SUCKS.




Oh, and I agree with Mrdeeno.

picus

For the record, I think the newest version of iDrive is actually fairly intuitive; that said I can absolutely understand why many people would dislike it; it can be cumbersome in some instances and has a pretty steap learning curve. I'd like very much if BMW made the obvious stuff (HVAC, Radio, etc..) more traditional, and left the really in depth stuff to iDrive (for example, you can program the car not to beep when you lock it, etc...which is cool).

Cheers.

gavriil

Even with all weather tires (let alone snow tires), I expect no major issues with the Vette.

gavriil

Good to know. Thanks!

gavriil

I guess we disagree on the critical matter of interior ergonomics.