EPS CL

I need to see a video of your car already!

gavriil

Yes, but I would have bought something by the time it arrives here.

gavriil

Be patient for the Vette reviews. I will talk extensively on the loudness item for the Vette (or lack thereof).

Maximized

After driving a Porsche, your opinion will be flawed. The M3 is a great car, but it's not a Cayman. The Cayman is more of a track warrior and not as compitent of an everyday driver. Did you drive a 997? The Cayman S is almost approaching 911 price.

gavriil

I have not driven a 911 yet. Not eager to do so either to tell you the truth, but maybe I should.

jz-97-c7

i just like reading gav's reviews

Dan Martin

I'm surprised by the M3 review. I know the suspension was stiff, but I beat the hell out of an E46 M3 on the track for a day and thought it was a formidable car. The car I drove had 19's and SMG.

As far as sound is concerned, you can get rid of that raspy note by installing an x-pipe just before the split to the mufflers. It sounds much cleaner.

Edit: Link to said X-Pipe: http://www.uucmotorwerks.com/raspx/

Beltfed

Amazingly, I find the C6 Vette to be much more comfortable to drive than the M3.

I'm not the only one who believes that to be the case either. Feels almost like a lux car in comparison.

And I have an E46 M3.

Exhaust wise, I just did the Eisenmann exhaust and the rasp is barely noticeable. The car sounds great.

The vehicle is going as of Oct.

dbox

I have an e46 M3(2004), buddy just got a c6(2006)...

I think the c6 is very cheap inside he thinks so too. we both prefer driving the m3. what we don't like is how you have thang your head forward too much in the c6. it's like you have to drive it reclined. the lux car feel you speak of I agree with you 100%. over a bump that quickly goes away. my guess would be the extra wide stance of the vette gives it that lux feel

fast as hell though. he also wishes he had the smg tranny. his paddle shifts are slooooooooow.

top gear has a review on youtube.com...they trashed the vette so bad.

getting rid of the M in october, why?

gavriil

Yeap. I will write everything about that in great detail probably tomorrow or later tonight. In the meantime it's almost impossible to find 2007 CLK550 even if I wanted to buy one today.

In a different and probably completely irelevant note, I raced a brand new Passat with the new 3.6, 280HP engine from 10mph to 75mph and we were dead even. I was surprised as they have done 6.1/14.5 for the 0-60/1/4 mile.

Beltfed

Why did your buddy get a C6, if he prefers to drive the M3?

The interior of the Vette obviously is not up to M3 snuff (materials wise), but overall I feel build quality is there. Not something to turn me off from buying one. The interior is definitely better than the C5 I had and that was tolerable.

I just think the Vette is a nicer more compliant car to drive on the street.

That aside, its time for the M to go back...lease term is up.

Time for the next, but that's for a different thread.

Beltfed

Cool......

Yeah, last time I checked the CLK550s are just starting to show up, depending on where one is located. Local dealer hasn't received any to date.

F900

S Florida Merc dealers have already sold some CLK550s and they have been delivered to customers.....


Gavriil

I had the 06 CLK500 AMG, car had plenty of power, handling was excellent, but I just could not be sold on the interior ( felt cheap), especially for $60000+ with no options.

dbox

he's a dumb ass... said he didn't want the same car I had

i'd get the same car a friend had if I liked it. he's already mad about only having two seats.

have you researched the e90 m3? i'll be trading mine once that gets here

Beltfed

Sure, we've all seen the test mule running around......that car is 15+ months off at this point.

And don't forget, its definitely moving upmarket.

Beltfed

What do you mean you had one?

Crazy Bimmer

So is Mr Beltfed getting a C6 for the next car.

GIBSON6594

Gav, what about the S4? It's not as harsh as the M3 and it has the V8 growl you are looking for.

Beltfed

GC SRT8.....

I'll discuss it in another thread at some point.

Crazy Bimmer

He didnt like the S4 when he drove it awhile ago. I agree with him, S4 is nothing taht exciting.

GC SRT8

Nicky Pass

My dad's friend owns Schaumburg Jeep and he "demoed" the GC SRT8....OMG...If I was going to get rid of my Cobra, thats What I'd buy. I drove it...its comperable to the new Mustang GT speed wise...but thats awesome when you realize you can go that fast...handle that well....and fit 6 people in it! For $45K loaded....there isn't a better ALL AROUND vehicle.

gavriil

https://acurazine.com/forums/showthr...39#post4151139

I may go and retest the S4 in case there was something wrong with me or the car when I did above.

Tomorrow I am going for a second and third test of the CLK550 btw.

F900

".I sat inside and was very disappointed at the lack of attention to detail with certain interior pieces as far as lack of quality."


^^ you wrote this in another thread about the Merc C55, I'm curious to know if you get the same impression about the CLK550, especially b/c its more money etc....

gavriil

So after calling BILL JACOBS CHEVROLET - - 2001 W JEFFERSON, JOLIET , IL 60435 and talking to one of the sales reps, I am ready to go and test a C6. He was the nicest sales guy I ever dealt with. To say he went the extra mile to make me happy, even though he knew that I would not be buying a car from him that day, would be an understatement, to say the least.

He knew I would not buy because I told him I'd be testing the CTSV and the CLK550 at a later date. He told me that they are also a Cadillac dealer and that he also sells those but they dont have a CTSV. It's the time where the 07s are coming in and no one did. I called 5 dealers. The closest CTSV was an hour away or more.

I told him that I am very interested in driving the C6 with the magnetic suspension but he said that the only one they had was the one in the showroom and it was obvious the car would not be coming out. He told me that the two modes in that car's suspension basically feel like the other two suspension options. In comfort mode it feels like the base car and in sport mode it'd feel like the Z51 car. So I said, let's try the Z51 then. After all I still remember Hill saying that by buying the Z51 car you get 85% of the performance the C5 Z06 gives.

Here let me say that while he was bringing the car, I sat in a bunch of GM cars. The C6 with the new auto tranny has very interesting paddles behind the steering wheel. You have the option to use your fingers, like most other paddles, OR your thumbs. There are plus and minus buttons facing you, so you have two options.






Also, the interior of the Escalade is a HUGE! leap ahead of the previous car, however there are still some pieces here and there that are completely unacceptable considering what they did with others. The Equinox's interior needs to be replaced yesterday, I would not had put it into production. Also the SSR was very disappointing to sit in and very tight.

I see a brand new C6 arriving outside and get out. The car was not just new, it just arrived from the factory. ALL the plastics were still there. Even the levers behind the steering wheel had plastic nets around them. I later looked at the odometer, it had 5 miles on it.

Let me say here that this was the second C6 he brought for me, because the first one would only blow hot air and it was 95 degrees out. Something wrong with the AC or the controls of the AC. A little disappointing to see a brand new car have an issue like that out of the factory.

I sit in and the sales guy shows me how to operate the HUD and a few other controls, after a minute's worth of orientation, I already feel like I've lived with this car for a few months. Ergonomically, it's fine.

So at this point, the sales guy tells me, it's all yours go. I go, you wont come with? He goes, no it's all yours, go play.

Alrighty then!

The seats are almost the same as those in the Cayman S. The steering wheel moves vertically and telescopically (both power), so it's very easy to find the right driving position. The seats also power, except for the backs where a very cheap feeling lever adjusts. Seriously, that lever felt like it would come off any second. I would be embarrassed to have the car go out the factory with that lever, even if everything else was Maybach-like with respect to quality. Anyway.

As all of you know, the top/roof of the C6 is removable. Manually removable. I could see the tons of magnesium used to make that thing, even the levers that unlatch the top are made out of magnesium, I am guessing in the interest of weight gain. However, what I was not aware of was the fact that for 750 dollars more, you get a top that's see-through and tinted. When you feel it, it feels like cheap plastic, but you get a VERY panoramic view of the sky. For 1.5K you get both the fixed piece and the see-through piece.

Here it is:



Chevy calls it "Transparent Roof Panel" and it says on their website:

The trunk space is huge as some of you know. With respect to width it is possibly the largest trunk space this side of the SUV lineups out there, however it does not have much depth. Overall though, one could put luggage for four people in there, let alone two.

The C6's interior is light-years ahead of that of the C5's, however there is tons of room for improvement. IMO the strength of this interior is its design. Also, they got rid of that super ugly four spoke steering which we saw in the first few months out of the C6 coupes and now all of them have the Z06's beautiful, sporty-looking, three spoke steering wheel.

Finally, as far as room, there is plenty for two people and with the transparent roof top, it feels even roomier.

So I push the start button and the LS2 comes to life. Right away, even from idle, you know there is a V8 under the hood.

The clutch feels pretty light, not bad at all considering the torque available from the engine. The steering wheel, not Cayman S accurate, but fine. The shifter? A little notchy. I was expecting better, however I was expecting better from the M3 also. So maybe my expectations are way up.

I get out of the dealer's lot, I turn right, on a two lane main avenue and I switch to second gear at low rpm, but once in second, the gas pedal at 85% immediately! OH MY GOD!...this is the engine for me!, I yell. Yes I did not think of it, I yelled it, in the car...to myself! I did not even have to go above 4K rpm. No need. Because this thing caught me by surprise. My internal organs felt almost like they were inflamated and disoriented, because of the unexpected change of rate of the (forward) acceleration (g force).

Lowering the speed and rpm in 2nd gear, again gas pedal at 90% OH BOY THE BRUTE FORCE!

I mean I hate exaggerating, and we all know that the C6 is not the quickest car on the planet (although at 4.3 for the 60mph run it's one of the quickest), but I do not think I felt like this, when I drove this car on the race track a year ago. Maybe because the track did not have long straights? However, the feeling this engine/chassis give you between 1500 rpm and 4500 rpm at WOT, is close to unbelievable.

I was thinking of the Porsche cars and the M3 and, no disrespect, but I was laughing my ass off. Those things were..."mockups", is the best word I could find. I dont know but after driving this thing, I realized that for me there is nothing like a large V8. Because I love torque at low and mid rpm, so the saying "there is no replacement for displacement" does apply no matter how hick-like it sounds. A smaller engine, say a 6 cylinder engine, no matter how much peak power it makes, does not matter. To me. What matters is how much power an engine makes at low and mid rpm. That's what you feel, that's what matters. And if it sounds great, I will pay gold for it

So what about sound coming off the LS2?

You probably can tell that I am very particular on this criterion. I have no idea how this happened, I have no control over it. Maybe the CLS' engine spoiled me?

It is very difficult to describe the music coming from the LS2. Why?

First of, let me say that it's got nothing to do with the LS1 from the C5 car. Let me share with you that I almost bought a C5 6 months before I bought my CLS in 2000. I was at the same dealer, 6 years ago, with the wife (you know what the means) and ready to pull the trigger on a C5. And what completely turned me off was the super loud noise of the C5's LS1. I drove every C5 body they made back then, including the Cabrio which according to the dealer, was the quietest of all (I still remember this...imagine!). I was so saddened by the experience, I still remember it because I was so sold on the C5 from reading all the mags and people's testimonials! That's when I realized that no matter how much you love a car on paper, do not make up your mind then, because when you drive it and drive it again and again, you might change your mind. Dramatically so!

Anyway, back to the C6...

The sound of the LS2. Weirdest thing in the world.

Since I was talking about loudness above, let me start with that factor in the case of the LS2. In two words, NO COMPARISON! Choosing two different words? Very livable!

The growl of the male lion is there, as expected. It rumbles, however that growl is controlled by load. Gas pedal load, that is. So it could be almost inaudible (exaggerating) to very mad, depending on where you are on the gas pedal. Which makes sense and it's exactly what I want.

Under heavy load, from 2K rpm to 4K rpm it gets louder as rpm rises, however the bass sound stays just that. Bassy. Usually engines get more trebly when rpm increases. A good example is the M3's engine sound. And things get even more complicated. Above 4500 rpm everything changes. Although the bassy nuance stays, the loudness...decreases! Yes it does. I mean you expect the engine to get louder with rpm, this thing changes completely to a less pronounced sound. And something else is added to the noise. Something that sounds artificial and has completely different nuance characteristics than the bassy sound of the LS2 up to 4500 rpm. It consists of high frequencies and it comes not so much from the engine compartment but from the central axle tunnel, under my right hand's elbow (you know, the axle that sends power to the rear wheels coming from the clutch area in the front). It almost sounds like a second, smaller engine which starts going at 4500 rpm and blends its sound with that of the not-so-pronounced-any-more LS2. And when I leave the gas and coast, the artificial sound takes over. The bassy part almost disappears.

Whatever the hell they have done with the tuning of the sound of this engine, it's very complicated, not that I am saying it's intentional. However, overall, this engine does not impress at high rpm with regard to sound character. And the same applies for power and torque characteristics. Maybe because I am used to our CLS' engine where it pulls hard above 4800 rpm and when I get in another car which destroys you in mid rpm, I have this expectation that it will pull even harder at high rpm? Maybe it's that, maybe it's because this is a classic OHV engine and like most OHV engines (possibly with the exception of the LS7), is not super happy above 5K rpm.

However, overall, the sound character of the LS2 sounds better to me, than that of the Porsche cars and the BMW cars.

So the C6 easily won the power character factor and won the sound factor. Up to now.

There was a button next to the shifter. When you press it once, the instrument panel, with big capital letters, shows: Active Handling Off. When you push it again, it says: Competition Mode On, again: Active Handling and Traction Control ON.

I thought I'd leave everything ON and play a little and see what happens with everything off. Well, the Vette's rear comes off the line very easily even with the stability control to ON, so I never felt I'd take anything off. It was that non-intrusive. Let me say here that the M Roadster's DSC was not the most non intrusive SC system I have driven in.

So the problem with this car?

The suspension. Ride quality was pretty bad. It almost reminded me of the M3, only it was worse on broken pavement. I was sure that the Z51 package was not for me. What the hell is happening? Am I getting old at 34 guys?

When I got back, I told the sales guy of my problem with the car's suspension and he immediately said, "no worries, let me go get a base car". A few minutes later and while checking out a few more Cadillac car interiors (CTS, STS), there is another C6 waiting outside. This time this car had a lot less options as compared to the first car I drove. No HUD, no GPS, etc.

I immediately can tell that the shifter is a little better. Does GM do anything to the shifter based on the suspension package? I did not even ask.

The ride quality is a lot better. Still not as refined as I'd like it, but it's livable this time. With the base suspension the car is a lot more of a GT car than a sport car.

So I went back and told him about that. He was glad I liked the car as much as I did. Especially when I told him I liked the car more than the M3 and the Cayman S. Another sales guy heard me say that and he started clapping.

So...the sales guy told me that he did not have a CTSV in stock. So I told him the two cars I have to for sure drive are the CLK550 and the CTSV before I make up my mind (the SC430 was also another).

So at that moment he goes, "Gabriel...hold on a second, I'll be right back". I thought he was gonna go get a business card for me, but a minute later a CTSV pulls up outside. I go "you've got to be kidding right?" He explained that this is a 2005 CTSV they had in their showroom for 382 days and it sold yesterday (apparently CTSVs are NOT selling well at all). So the car was at their garage for them to fix all the dings from the car being exposed to so much during the 13 months in the showroom.

So he was basically breaking the law by bringing the car out for me to test drive.

I firstly sat as a passenger and then drove it so I experienced both. The first thing I remember thinking of was how much higher I was sitting in this car as opposed to the Vette and justifiably so. The suspension felt almost identical to the C6 base car. I was expecting a lot better.

Then I though that if this car is a 2005, that means that the engine under the hood is the LS6. Hmmm...

I start driving the car later and am completely surprised by the...LACK of torque here. Yes the gear ratios felt longer, but still. This thing would not move! I mean compared to what I just experienced with the other two cars I just drove.

The shifter was a lot better though.

And finally, the interior is so ugly, I did not even want to look at it. Sorry.

So I am thinking: what do we have here? A much slower car, with two extra doors which I do not need, extra seats which are nice to have but not necessary, the suspension is not more refined as it should since the badge says Cadillac as opposed to Chevy, a car that's about the same price, has no transparent roof option, is heavier, what's the sense of even continuing to examine it?

The only good thing about the CTSV is its looks from up front. The V package adds the mesh grills and they look very cool. To me.

Bottom line, I was completely turned off by the CTSV.

So...I loved the Vette. It's a great car. But is it THE car?

Stand by to find out...

Crazy Bimmer

Wow im shocked to hear the base vette has a softer ride than the M3.

Great post! (i actually read it all too!)

ZtotallynakedZ

I've heard nothing but praise for the vette, go for it, if you can deal with having smaller car like that. I loved the SRT-8 GC, but you cant tow with it, and after reading up about it, has lots of stupid things wrong with it. I drove the Trailblazer SS, and thats my next car, and I can tow with it. I've heard the same things about the CTSV, ugly interior, and surprisely not comfortable. I am surprised that you didnt like the M3; one of my favorite cars, hands down, is the e36/46 m3. In any case, awesome write ups, very through and honest

cob3683

Good Vette review.

I would be livid if I was the guy who bought the CTSV though.

derrick

gav,

Great review of the cars ... I have been anxiously awaiting the next installment on your car quest. I am eager to buy a sports car by spring 2007 but what discourages me is the premium Canadians pay for the same car in the States! (ie Cayman goes for C$10 000 more! ) So, the next gen g35c is probably on my short list. Importing a car from the US is the alternative ... but the GF/financee will probably have some say on the 'limit' I can spend.

I drove a 2005 CTSV at a Cadillac event on a small track in a parking lot. It handles well and the clutch felt a little weird for me (maybe I am used to a lighter clutch and much less torque? Or maybe that car had been beaten up by previous guys at the same event across the country?) Nevertheless, I was truly disappointed by the fit & finish of that interior. Of course, they are going to change all that with the next gen CTS. But I will say, the LS6 engine (to me) was an amazing step-up from my J32A engine in terms of brute force. The track wasn't big enough to do the 'sound test'. (Not as important to me because I never thought of it... but maybe I will on my next test drives!)

I am surprised the SC430 on the list. Totally different demographic. Fit & finish is top-notch. Ride is rather numb compared to the others. Definitely for more serene ride -- probably a good thing considering the shape of Chicago roads.

Well ... looking forward to the next installment.

Moodist

iTrader: (2)

Just reading your review of the vette makes me want one...hmmm...might have to go check it out.

Ashburner

I miss my LS2! The engines are awesome!

I put a Ligenfelter CAI on my GTO and it's definitely noticable. The slight whine at 60%+ throttle sounds like a turbo spooling up.

Anyways, if you are into modding, you can't go wrong with the Vette.

Dan Martin

The C6 is a great car. For me, it would be a tough decision between it and the 911, but ultimately, I think the 911 would win.

Beltfed

The two are not even remotely comparable due to the price differential.

That aside, a C6 Vette will run circles around a standard Carrrera.

At this point, I personally would not buy a CTS-V this late in the production cycle. After 07, the car is done.......the interior has not aged well and it was never that great to begin with (especially in comparison to the M3). I think the front looks great, but that yeallow bumper foglight is an eyesore.

For a 4k lb car though, it definitely moves. Not as fast as the lighter C6, but its fast.

gavriil

I will explain it all about the SC430. Two reviews from now. Next is the CLK550 which I will be going to Barrington, IL to drive for the second time and then at Naperville for a cabrio ride (they dont have a coupe).

Dan Martin

I was referring to the used 911 that I was talking about earlier. If we're talking new, it's about a $20K spread here between the car Gav drove and a base Carrera ($80K vs $100K).

I agree 100% that the C6 is a faster car in every respect, but it's probably unlikely that Gav is looking to track his car, so I wouldn't put too much emphasis on peak performance. The 911's I've driven feel more nimble on the street and very strong. The Vette pulls like a train, but it feels very big when cruising around the city.

In the end, it all boils down to personal preference. I'd be happy with either, but I think I'd be happier with the 911.

gavriil

The dealers got hurt by the CTSV. Especially lately. I called like 6 of them and there was not ONE 06 CTSV to be found. One of them had four 2005 CTSVs! New!

Also, every single one of them told me that there is no difference between 06 and 07 and one basically said that the 07s are 06 cars that GM could not sell. That's how slow they're selling. When I asked why, the Corvette sales guy told me that it's mainly because of the manual tranny and no auto tranny option. Makes sense, but this is probably ONE of the many reasons they are not selling.

Dealers are dealing with the CTSV by a TON!

gavriil

What do you mean? Which car is the 80K car and which the 100K car?


But see, again, it's not about how fast it is, it's about how quick it is. Quick is related to acceleration and fast to top speed, but not to nit-pick I know what you mean. Still, it's not about how quick it is either because from an acceleration standpoint, the 911 I bet will feel very close to a Cayman S. The Cayman S does the 60 in 4.8 every time they tested it.

If that's what the 911 will make me feel, it only feels like a strong car. The LS2 felt like a monsteroulsy strong car (making up a word here). So it's not about peak power, which will give you the acceleration numbers in the end. For me. It's about how much power you make at low and mid rpm. This is what people call, torque! That's what brings the show to a completely different level! And it sounds like it's not even trying, that LS2. Amazing!

Have you driven any Porsche cars? The 911?

gavriil

Also, let me correct myself above and say that the Z51 car's shifter was more than a little notchy. It was worse than the M3's.

Beltfed

Oh they are, in my car research in the last 8 months (thinking about what to do).......the guy at the Caddy dealer told me that if I wanted a CTS-V he would absolutely bend over backwards to sell me one.

juniorbean

iTrader: (5)

Gav, great reviews! I love the fact that you're driving a lot of cars that i have on my list as well! Of course, when the time comes I'll be doing some test driving myself, however, it's always good to hear what others think...

gavriil

By the way, thank you to all the nice words about my reviews guys!