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Rant: Old Honda/Acura vs. New Honda/Acura - Quality, reliability: Your Experience

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Rant: Old Honda/Acura vs. New Honda/Acura - Quality, reliability: Your Experience

 
Old 11-18-2013, 07:44 PM
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Thumbs down Rant: Old Honda/Acura vs. New Honda/Acura - Quality, reliability: Your Experience

I just want to continue my thoughts on a similar post I decided to follow up which was started in 2011:

Originally Posted by Greyout View Post
Rant:

I have been a honda guy my entire driving life. My first car was a 1992 Prelude S, and have since owned 4 other hondas, the last being youngest and lowest milage when I purchased it - my 2006 TSX 6-speed with 50000 miles (it has 60K now).

But I am on the brink of telling Honda to go to hell for the rest of my driving life.

they just don't make cars like they used to

They don't actually make cars period. They just put them together. Yes, they make the engines and chassis, but all the other crap is made by companies like Denzo and Mitsubi and, yes, even AC Delco, the same company that makes stuff for your dads impala.

My A/C compressor on my Acura, which is not made by Honda or Acura, died at 5 years and 60,000 miles.

When it died, it crapped the "black death" sludge into the entire A/C system, requiring the replacement of basically the entire A/C system, to the tune of $4000.

My friend now owns my 1995 Accord, which is now well past 200,000 miles.

That car still has A/C
That car still has all its door lock actuators working
That car still has power seats that work as designed
That car has syncros that all lasted WAY past 50,000 miles... 150,000 miles actually...
That car was built by Honda, when Honda tried.

My Acura, sadly, does not.

I think Honda builds some of the greatest engines in the world.

Their cars however, are no different then every other Pontiac, Ford, or chevy on the road, because all the hundreds of tiny bits that make a car work are made by the same people.

One day, that will catch up with them. They are riding the wave of public perception of reliability they rightfully earned in the 90's, and they are ruining it. 10 years ago, a honda with 60,000 miles was just getting started.

Now, its falling apart like every other piece of shit on the road.


/buzzed rant
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:45 PM
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I just wanted to air my frustrations and totally agree with the OP.

I owned the following Honda/Acura products with no major issues at all:

1997 Honda Accord ex-r V6 (2.7) C27 motor
2001 Acura 3.5RL (3.5) C35 motor
1996 Acura Integra SE - leather (1.8) B18 motor

BUT, then I wanted to upgrade to a newer Acura.... The first gen TSX was always sexy (and still is in my eyes). After a year of ownership of my 2004 TSX from August 2012 to August 2013, I couldn't believe just how bad the company had gotten.

I even made sure I bought a "Japan" made Acura product. A/C quit working, door lock actuator on both front doors quit, starter died (despite the starter being replaced in 2010 as well), upper and lower balljoints and control arms, Dash lights all went out, including the audio and climate control screens LCD-- irritating during winter and daylight savings time when it gets dark at 4pm, headlights leaked water/condensation, front wheel bearings, radiator, car shut down and refused to start when applying full throttle for the first time (and finally re-started after multiple attempts-- car didn't burn oil at all), only to find a check engine light and an extremely rough running engine that needed a new timing chain.... DESPITE well documented oil changes since new with synthetic oil from the Acura Dealership)... This was a 1-owner car, mature owner. Zero mods, not even tinted.

I never took the car over 3K RPM, infact I drove it like a granny (2.5K rpm shifts) - this is an auto) - to save gas. I liked the motor. It was torquey and smooth. When it worked. Again, I had every service record, which was confirmed with a local Acura dealership. 1 owner car for 8 years, until I bought it in 2012.


Enough was enough. I sold it and found a 2000 Integra GS with leather. 1 owner, old man, and dealer serviced to the book, right down to the fuel filter being done. It's mint and rust free (oil sprayed annually). Very happy with that car, and judging by the reviews I've read of the 3rd generation Integras, if I treat her well, it will be just as problem free as my first 3 Honda/Acura cars.

I will NEVER own a post-1990s designed Honda EVER again, unless the company shapes up and loses its bean counting corporate bafoons. The newer cars may have nicer designs, more premium features, and MUCH nicer interiors - BUT, the quality of all the parts as a whole which come together to form the vehicle is INFERIOR.

---> My 97 Accord -- 5th gen accord released in Japan in 1993, later came to North America as a 94 model - a 90s Honda, oozing with quality and reliability. Used the First gen Acura Legend engine.

---> My 2001 Acura 3.5RL -- known as the 3rd gen Honda Legend in Japan... released in Japan in 1995 as a 1996 model -- again a 90s design (produced from 96-04). I would own this car again. Just a little thirsty on fuel in the city.

----> My 1996 and 2000 Acura Integras --- 3rd gen Integra released as a 1993 model in Japan, later came to North America as a 94 model.... - - 90s Hondas, oozing with quality and reliability.


To each their own. My TSX was sold. Never again. By the way, my RL was sold with 309,000km. Problem free besides as timing belt. My Accord 2.7 was sold with 282Km, just a timing belt. Ditto both Integras.


TSX? Sold with 239K, with all the aforementioned issues. Almost any car (under $50,000) can run for 300,000 easy highway kilometers..... throw in city traffic, tons of potholes and rough roads, frigid winter temps, hot summers, etc and it becomes clear which cars were built to stand the test of time. In other words, I've been able to separate the boys from men, if you will. Old Honda for the WIN. Especially the Old Integras and 3.5RL and 4th and 5th gen accords. All of those cars were tanks! They survived/ are surviving BOTH the tests of TIME and MILEAGE better than my newer TSX with lower mileage ever could.

As long as one can keep rust away from the aforementioned older Hondas, especially the 4th/5th gen Accords and the 2nd/3rd gen Integras, they will probably outlive a lot of what is rolling out of automotive factories today with MINIMAL maintenance, IF they are driven and treated with RESPECT and not neglected and beat on by their owners. Simple as that.




:endrant:banghead:
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Old 11-18-2013, 07:48 PM
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Original thread was initially posted in the wrong sub-forum. These were the posts from that thread:

Originally Posted by voiddweller View Post
Your rant deserves it's own thread since it's not AC related

My '04 TSX has 148k miles and still has the original AC. The AC clutch is a bit loud, but I had it checked out and it appears to be normal for this car. The original owner said he only used AC a few months a year and the car never left Florida.

$4,000 for a replacement AC is a bit much, but I'm not surprised.

BTW - I had a '96 Accord SE auto and '99 Integra GS-R before picking up my '04 TSX. In regard to your comments, I agree with most of them. My Accord had decent quality and wasn't difficult to work on. Mold in the Honda AC and terrible service at a local dealer prompted me to try Acura.

The GS-R was really fun, but it had an issue with the 2nd gear synchros after 15k miles that was eventually rectified by Acura under warranty. Both had substandard AC, but the Integra was very reliable and easy to work on. Acura screwed up on the oil filter orientation (there's almost no way to avoid oil running down your arm when changing it...lol) but the DC2 and DC4 Integras are my current gold standard for reliability and easy access to most components.

I thought replacing the TSX clutch would be as easy as my Integra...wow, was I wrong

Originally Posted by tekneek View Post
Although I agree with you, what else is out there thats on the level of 90's hondas for the average consumer? Unfortunately, I think its a trend that many japanese automakers are experiencing.
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Old 11-18-2013, 09:24 PM
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My multiple Acuras and Hondas have been 110% reliable.

As always, your mileage will vary.
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Old 11-18-2013, 10:10 PM
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My personal opinion is that car makers don't care about making reliable cars anymore, so they will ooooo and aahhhhh you with all the technologies and stuffs. Like you said, they dont make their own parts no more, they are partners with other companies that make certain parts, and those parts malfunction more often then they should. Thats how their partners will make money, is when your car brakes down and you will have to buy parts from them.
I used to have a 95 legend, it currently have a alittle over 230,000 miles and still running strong, had it since 125,000 miles. I gave the legend to my little bro. the only thing i didnt like about my legend was that it is a salvage. the control arms are bent in an accident, so i had to constantly buy used tires every 3000 miles. other then that and the legends front bumper design. I would of kept that car forever , i already had it for 12 years. I never had oil problems. when ever theres an issues, its very cheap to fix.

And please don't compare a pontiac with an acura, the 1st car i own was a pontiac, and OMG, what a piece of crap that car was. my dad used to own an oldsmobile, and that was a piece of crap.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:12 AM
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I didn't have any problems with my '04 TL, and I know many other people who haven't/didn't, as well. Same goes for people with TSXs. Sounds like you got a bad TSX...there are always a few bad apples in every bunch .
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:24 AM
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I'm not a import fanboy. I'm not married to any brand. Most of the cars I have had shared some problems like bad transmissions, & various little things.
My CLS was reliable enough, however I was a bit disappointed that after I clicked past 100K it fell apart. Had to get a new steering rack, needed axles, plus the 105K mile service, engine mounts again, AC had a leak........
It was not what I expecting to happen with a Honda product & why I got out of it. Wasn't worth it to me to keep throwing $ at it.

Say what you want about older American cars/trucks...But my 93 Explorer is kicking, & kicks ass for reliability.

Last edited by fuzzy02CLS; 11-19-2013 at 08:26 AM.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:31 AM
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My 98 CL was pretty good. Only problem it had was the sunroof stopped working. Techs found a wire wedged behind the dash that basically got chewed through over time (not chewed through by an animal, but worn through b/c of rubbing against the dash). They fixed under warranty.

My 02 TL-S was good except for the tranny. As of when I sold it it was heading onto #3. Not sure if the new owner ever had to swap it out again.

Ever since then we've been out of Acura. Mainly b/c nothing has appealed to us since then. We have had 3 Germans (currently still have one... well technically two if you count the buggy), one American (current), and one Japanese (current) and they have all been trouble-free.

I will keep my eye on the NSX over the next few years... but as of right now that is really all that would appeal to me... and no, I wouldn't worry about reliability.

Last edited by juniorbean; 11-19-2013 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 11-19-2013, 08:35 AM
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my 06 TL is great and trouble free, granted its only sitting at 65k miles...
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Old 11-19-2013, 09:19 AM
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In my experience, my old 7G 6 speed Accord & my current CLS6 have been pretty bulletproof being over 130,000+ mi with little or no mechanical / electrical issue(s) - Really couldn't be happier other than needing to replace axles, clutch and eventually motor mounts.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:48 AM
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OP, you lost me at Rant.

Seriously, I have three Hondas in my garage right now. I've owned a total of six over the years. I have also owned several American, German, and Swiss made vehicles. I would pick a HMCo product over those unreliable, POS, gas hogs any day of the week.
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Old 11-19-2013, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by chill_dog View Post
I didn't have any problems with my '04 TL, and I know many other people who haven't/didn't, as well. Same goes for people with TSXs. Sounds like you got a bad TSX...there are always a few bad apples in every bunch .
I think your right, no car company is perfect, there will always be a few bad apples.
Regular maintenance , easy driving and TLC will make most car reliable and last long. But there will be cars that just have a bad design and are prone to parts failure. We can't based our whole bias judgement on a particular brand just because we had bad experience with it ( which i just did in my previous post about the pontiac and olds, my bad) .
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:13 PM
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probably not only for honda, but i miss the low cowls old hondas had. i thought my 1st gen TSX was nice and low, but not as the DC2 or 3rd gen prelude was...

not an issue of quality/reliability, but more of a design comment.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by afici0nad0 View Post
probably not only for honda, but i miss the low cowls old hondas had. i thought my 1st gen TSX was nice and low, but not as the DC2 or 3rd gen prelude was...

not an issue of quality/reliability, but more of a design comment.
Taller engine blocks, increased front/side impact standards and 'pedestrian compatibility' standards.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL View Post
Taller engine blocks, ....
Make me some room furs mine innacoola.
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Old 11-20-2013, 01:59 PM
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Two Hondas and an American in the garage now. Pilot is showing her age in terms of consumables but is rattle and vibration free at nearly 80k miles. S2k is virtually brand new at only 28k miles. Looking forward to a new Honda (Accord) or Acura (RLX) as the next car.

In short:
Meh to this thread.

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Old 11-20-2013, 02:25 PM
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The only new Acura I've owned was my 2006 and it was complete shit. Blown tranny at 56k, and the rebuilt tranny was on its way out when I sold it. Those cars aren't met to be modded. Plus Acura came up with every excuse in the book to deny the warranty claim.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:26 PM
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My 89 Accord was the best car I've ever owned, and my 96 didn't give any issues either.

My 03 Odyssey lost it's transmission at 110,000, and my 2011 Odyssey has had less than stellar reliability. (power doors, power steering, radio, brakes etc)

However the CR-V I have has nearly 35,000 miles and is as trouble free as any other Honda, same with my 13 Civic.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:28 PM
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I had an 05 TL that was in the shop a lot and had a cracked dash. Not very reliable

Then I had a 10 year old 911 with the only problem being I couldn't max it out on any public road, and it held up after living in (extremely) different climates every 6 months.

it's really a hit or miss with these things.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:43 PM
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My 06 accord is pretty reliable other than brake rotors keep getting warped.

My gf 08 civic's shocks were gone at 5k miles causing uneven tire wear and buzzing tire noise for the next 50k miles. Honda could not find the problem until i figured it out last year =)
Engine mount was replaced at 30k miles.

Other than that Honda is pretty reliable.

My 05 s2k was reliable maybe because i bought it new.
07 s2k was a nightmare. Replaced engine black and transmission at 40k miles, clutch slave cylinder, bearings, intake hose cracking. But i bought it used (Honda certified) and who knows what the last owner did to the car.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:43 PM
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2003 Pilot with extremely few problems (window motor, lock actuator, and glazed headlights). It has the original exhaust, rotors and CV joint boots which is amazing considering it has 240K miles.

2005 TL, not quite as good but still better than my older Honda/Acura's.

Modern cars are better for reliability/durability but Honda/Acura's are still better than most.
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Old 11-20-2013, 02:49 PM
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2000 Civic was bullet-proof

2001 CL-S was a rattle box, paint chip/scratch nightmare, front brake eating, two transmission failure mess.

2006 Honda Oddy was a transmission whining, power steering whinning/failure, front brake eating, premature tire wearing, rattle box, hot mess.
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:41 PM
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My 98 Acura Integra and 91 Honda Civic were bulletproof. I kicked their asses for at least 150k miles each and they were fine, save for consumables.

My TSX hasn't been as nice as she's aged. Axle problems, a blown transmission, and an alternator were the main problems, but I've also did the preventative thing and replaced the rotors and pads all around before they warped, like everyone elses.

All were modded to more or less the same extent, with suspension and bolt-ons.

I will say, my wife's 06 Ridgeline has been fine.
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Old 11-20-2013, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S View Post
2000 Civic was bullet-proof

2001 CL-S was a rattle box, paint chip/scratch nightmare, front brake eating, two transmission failure mess.

2006 Honda Oddy was a transmission whining, power steering whinning/failure, front brake eating, premature tire wearing, rattle box, hot mess.
The transmission wine is normal. All the Honda's I own do it.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:10 PM
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Transmission whine is normal. Honda automatics do not use planetary gears.
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Old 11-20-2013, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by UA6 View Post
The only new Acura I've owned was my 2006 and it was complete shit ... Those cars aren't met to be modded...
C'mon, really? No car is meant to be modded.

A wise mechanic once told me, "If you want it to be fast, buy it like that from the factory." Then he showed me pictures of his 997 GT2 RS.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CarbonGray Earl View Post
My 98 Acura Integra and 91 Honda Civic were bulletproof. I kicked their asses for at least 150k miles each and they were fine, save for consumables.

My TSX hasn't been as nice as she's aged. Axle problems, a blown transmission, and an alternator were the main problems, but I've also did the preventative thing and replaced the rotors and pads all around before they warped, like everyone elses.

All were modded to more or less the same extent, with suspension and bolt-ons.

Exactly. Newer Acuras are without a doubt, more luxurious - but I don't think they're as durable under severe conditions (i.e. abuse, lots of heavy traffic, city driving with potholes, etc).

Any Buick with a 3.8 V6 can accumulate 300K miles on the motor and tranny, I'm sure. It's the little things that drive you insane which can add up to nickle and diming you to death.

The 4 people I know with "newer" designed Hondas have had just that happen. 2006 Civic, 2003 Accord K24, 2007 Civic and 2001 Civic. Things like door lock actuators, transmissions, and headgaskets and timing chain issues, and oxygen sensors seem to be going out more often than I'm used to hearing.

One word. Outsourcing. This, and competitive bids from auto manufacturers to parts suppliers means reduced parts quality.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted by R_R4 View Post
Exactly. Newer Acuras are without a doubt, more luxurious - but I don't think they're as durable under severe conditions (i.e. abuse, lots of heavy traffic, city driving with potholes, etc)...
OK, now I'm really gonna call BS on that^
I've beat the shit out of my RDX. Including, but not limited to, 16 miles up and back on a washboard gravel road and many camping trips, countless "Hammer-down full-throttle, I'm gonna pass all these motherfuckers on the way home," a couple hundred "Oh sit I'm gonna rear-end this bastard," amongst other abusive moments in it's six years on this planet. 75K on the ODO and the least of my troubles is a couple of worn sway bar links and a drivers window that rattles.

EDIT: Oh, ya, there is a slight smell of barf from the backs seat where the kid tossed his cookies...

Sorry, but your persepective is skewed on this matter.

Last edited by Mr Marco; 11-20-2013 at 05:43 PM.
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Old 11-20-2013, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by 05TLdcc View Post
I had an 05 TL that was in the shop a lot and had a cracked dash. Not very reliable

Then I had a 10 year old 911 with the only problem being I couldn't max it out on any public road, and it held up after living in (extremely) different climates every 6 months.

it's really a hit or miss with these things.
i think the fact that I dont daily drive my car helps with the longevity. lol
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:03 PM
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My Experience:

2006 Acura TL, purchased as second owner from an Acura dealership with ~60,000km.

Apart from the rattles I have coming from the door panel, window, steering console and windshield (gone after windshield was replaced), it has been pretty durable for me.

I'm approaching 225,000kms with a combined mixture of highway and city driving commute and not afraid to hammer it down once or twice every drive. Still on the OEM clutch. With the exception of the ball joints wearing a little prematurely and the bluetooth failing, I can't really say there have been any surprises outside of regular maintenance.

Would I buy another Acura/Honda? Probably not. I love my 3G TL but I feel the new line of Honda products lack character.

Cars are cars. I have some friends who swear by German vehicles and others who would never drive another Mercedes or BMW even if it was given to them for free. In the end I think we always have to be prepared for the worst. It can happen to anyone.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by R_R4 View Post
Exactly. Newer Acuras are without a doubt, more luxurious - but I don't think they're as durable under severe conditions (i.e. abuse, lots of heavy traffic, city driving with potholes, etc).

Any Buick with a 3.8 V6 can accumulate 300K miles on the motor and tranny, I'm sure. It's the little things that drive you insane which can add up to nickle and diming you to death.

The 4 people I know with "newer" designed Hondas have had just that happen. 2006 Civic, 2003 Accord K24, 2007 Civic and 2001 Civic. Things like door lock actuators, transmissions, and headgaskets and timing chain issues, and oxygen sensors seem to be going out more often than I'm used to hearing.

One word. Outsourcing. This, and competitive bids from auto manufacturers to parts suppliers means reduced parts quality.
And Buick doesn't outsource?

I think you need to speak about facts, not hearsay.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL View Post
Transmission whine is normal. Honda automatics do not use planetary gears.
Let's put it this way:

The whine showed up around 40k miles, progressively got louder and louder.

Meanwhile a friend of mine who had a 2007 had his tranny the bed at 55k.
His tranny whining started around 48k miles.

So yea.

Meanwhile Civic never whined, CL-S never whined (it just downshifted into second gear without warning )
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by DynamicJ32 View Post

Cars are cars. I have some friends who swear by German vehicles and others who would never drive another Mercedes or BMW even if it was given to them for free. In the end I think we always have to be prepared for the worst. It can happen to anyone.
In 2013, this is pretty much the case. Reliability has really come a long way for some makes while others have fallen back a bit. The playing field has been leveled a bit.
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Old 11-20-2013, 06:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S View Post
Let's put it this way:

The whine showed up around 40k miles, progressively got louder and louder.

Meanwhile a friend of mine who had a 2007 had his tranny the bed at 55k.
His tranny whining started around 48k miles.

So yea.

Meanwhile Civic never whined, CL-S never whined (it just downshifted into second gear without warning )
So you got the same 5 speed auto after your CL-S?

you should know better.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:08 PM
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Ive had good luck with my cars.
98 CRV-198,000
03 CLS-136,000, no problems yet.
Sorry to say though, they are all topped by my 1993 Ford Crown Victoria. *gasp* 350,000 miles on that mother, and she's still going on an original engine and transmission.
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Old 11-20-2013, 07:28 PM
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2000 Honda Accord (drove up to 80,000 miles) - had to get the tranny changed once but no other issue
2005 Acura TL (drove up to 80,000 miles) - shitload of rattles inside but no other issue
2010 Mazdaspeed3 (currently at 25,000 miles) - no issues so far

I generally don't have much issue with Honda/Acura products in terms of reliability.
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Ken1997TL View Post
And Buick doesn't outsource?

I think you need to speak about facts, not hearsay.
Well, he did put it in red.... so...

Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S View Post
In 2013, this is pretty much the case. Reliability has really come a long way for some makes while others have fallen back a bit. The playing field has been leveled a bit.
I never understood why people do not understand this. Well, I do, but it's pretty ridiculous that people don't get it. I mean, we're looking at Jaguar and Range Rover as a possible Mercedes replacement. 10 years ago I'd never even consider it. Even 5-7 years ago I wouldn't. But great strides have been made all around (German, American, British, Korean, etc)...
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Old 11-21-2013, 07:46 AM
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One word. Outsourcing. This, and competitive bids from auto manufacturers to parts suppliers means reduced parts quality.
Add to this the increasing emissions standards, the use of ethanol gas, & the dependency on computer gadgets.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:17 AM
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Interestingly enough my experience is kind of the opposite of yours, although all 3 of mine were pretty good to me. I've owned 3 Hondas/Acura.

98 Accord V6 EX Coupe. Purchased with 25k miles. Kept till 110k miles.
- Overall it was pretty good to me but I had trouble with sensors and a couple other minor things that kept popping up.
04 Acura TL. Purchased with 33k miles. Kept till 195k miles.
- This car was sold at 200k like new with every single little thing working like the day I bought it. Starting having trouble with various things like front bushings and other expected wear items once the miles got quite high, but all that interior stuff you complained about never gave me trouble aside from those stupid little dash bulbs that would burn out.
- The 3rd gen TLs were notorious for failing transmissions, so I did baby the transmission to avoid issues. Worked for me.
08 Acura MDX. Purchased with 55k miles. She now has 100k.
- Not a single issue yet. Literally nothing at all. Knock on wood.



Originally Posted by R_R4 View Post
One word. Outsourcing. This, and competitive bids from auto manufacturers to parts suppliers means reduced parts quality.

Originally Posted by Moog-Type-S View Post
In 2013, this is pretty much the case. Reliability has really come a long way for some makes while others have fallen back a bit. The playing field has been leveled a bit.
I completely agree with these two comments. All manufacturers are putting out bids to the same pool of automotive suppliers and this is definitely making the playing field much more level. I think it has really benefited some of the auto makers who had terrible quality in the 80s/90s and probably hurt the Toyotas and Hondas a bit. It has also allowed some makers like Hyundai to really come in and step up their game pretty easily.

Last edited by jhumbo; 11-21-2013 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 11-21-2013, 09:24 AM
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Originally Posted by gplayer View Post
Sorry to say though, they are all topped by my 1993 Ford Crown Victoria. *gasp* 350,000 miles on that mother, and she's still going on an original engine and transmission.
When I was in New York, I was talking to a cab driver who said most cabbies only consider one of 3 cars: Crown Vic, Toyota Camry or Toyota Highlander. He was driving a Camry Hybrid to try and keep the fuel costs down, but said the Crown Vics are great because they're cheap and run forever. BTW, he said he puts 80k miles on his car a year.
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