You do realize that the Nurburgring is recognized as one of the finest tests of suspensions in the world.

 

You might have a point if every other comparison with the GT-R in it didn't have the same results. Face it, the GT-R is faster around a track and I haven't seen one test where any car has beaten it yet (except the Best of Motoring race where the Gallardo nipped it at the end)....

Oh and srika=guy who trolls in every GT-R thread just to to talk s$%t about Nissan....

 

This was the first test versus a C6 Z06 that I know of. How do you explain how the C6 Z06 smoked both the GT3 and Turbo at VIR (C&D Lightning Lap), but tied the 911 Turbo in this test? The article just doesn’t add up to me. I’d like to see more results. If the GTR beats the C6 Z06’s time at VIR, well then I am highly impressed with the GTR and it’s truly the new sheriff in town.

 

uhhh...duh

wats ur point? big track with more straights will help out cars that are fast in straight lines...hence my point with the Z06

 

It’s obvious that you have no clue what it takes to turn fast times on a road course.

My point is that since the Nurburgring is a handling and braking track; Sheer power isn’t a huge factor there. Late braking and increasing your exit speed will make a much larger impact. Your theory about the Z06 at the Ring is false.

 

I don't think it should be a surprise to anyone that every and all test/comparisons are 100% completely honest....because lets face it....they're not.

In the end you just have to go with your gut and buy what you like and not because one has a second better around a certain track or can speed down the drag a little quicker according to one magazine or reviewer.

 

but when multiple tests show similar outcomes, one can only help to think that hey Nissan made a beast, but so is the Z06 and as always 911TT....some ppl just wont accept the fact that a nissan can hang or out-do a z06 or 911tt

 

I am not denying that. If the GTR had beaten the Z06 by 1 second, I'd believe that. 6 seconds is a huge time dispartity and is hard to believe. No one can seem to answer my question regarding why the 997 Turbo and Z06 posted identical lap times, but when C&D tested both cars the the Z06 was SIGNIFICANTLY faster. I am talking 7+ seconds faster!! Multiple tests have shown this to be true, except this one.

 

Magazine and critic reviews are always a reliable source

However, in the real world...



Money talks.

 

If the GTR looked much better than both the GT3, 911 TT and the Z06 and it were available in stick, I would probably take it in a heartbeat over either the Vette or 911.

 

I think you are dead wrong about the N'ring it not a point and squirt handling track it is a track that rewards HUGE power to weight ratios. It has long straights and sections that can be run near flat if the car is very stable at high speed.

 

Different drivers, different tracks. Its not really that hard to understand....

 

I don't know guys but the GTR in Best Motoring owns 911 Turbo and GT3, talking about 3 seconds difference in a 1 minute track.

 

The problem understanding the data is the lack of time to distance numbers.

You hit on the RWD/AWD and engine placement issues but that only goes so far and is not 100%.

What the numbers amount to (assuming it is good data) is the GT-R is VERY efficient in launch and getting down the track, turning time into distance, the other two are not as efficient at launch and make up time on the top end with brute force.


I am more and more amazed with this car, BUT I still maintain the weight would bother me behind the wheel. If you want to call this bullshit just try lapping a heavy car (no matter how capable) then lap in an Elise the laps may be faster in car X but the experience is completely different. The car is exceptional but just not my cup of tea. I would be curious how many people who track their cars multiple times a year actually gravitate to the "easy to drive" fast cars. I would wager that 911s would be very high on the list of cars that get actually track based on a percentage of 911s on the road, a car that is NOT easy to drive fast.

Again, kudos to Nissan, the GT-R is now right beside the Z06 on my mental list of incredible cars at a great price but are still missing something I require. For me cars are not all performance, I could spend 1/10 the price of a GT-R and run the 1320 in less time, or less than half the price and get around a road track in less time but each of those would be missing part of the experience I desire in a car. There is lots of "hate" for the GT-R by various fan boy groups however, I have no hate. I am (more) impressed (as each day passes) just not interested.

 

X2

 

same here

 

I don't understand your surprise I guess. Acceleration is not linear as speed increases. You cannot expect any car to accelerate from 120-124 as quickly as it can accelerate from say 30-34 mph. I think a second from 120-124 is pretty damn fast. If I had an accurate timer in my TL it would likely take more like 2 seconds.

 

See I disagree. The Ring, per many manufacturers own statements, is a handling track. They use the track to tune suspensions. Of course, you can make up for some suspension deficiencies with HP. It's not like we are talking about a 200hp car and a 505hp car. The Z06 is faster in terms of acceleration, but not by that much.

As for the Z06, I think it's kind of ironic that you mention a very stable platform at high speed. If you remember, Jan Magnuson refused to drive the car after the record lap due to poor aerodynamics. Remember the pictures of him with all four wheels off the ground

 

Yes it really is, if you actually believe the R&T test to be valid. Every test shows the Z06 to be significantly faster than the 997 TT, but this one doesn't. This is multiple tracks, drivers, and tests. The Z06 also beat the GT3 in a few tests. It just doesn't add up to me.

6 seconds around a road course is a lot of time. I don't think a lot of you guys realize that.

 

You certainly have the right to be incorrect...

The Green Hell is used to tune suspensions, no doubt about it. It is used for that due to the fact it has many different types of corners BUT most are taken at significant speed. The long straights and sweepers really do cater to high power to weight vehicles with high top speeds, I would suspect more than ANY other road course in the world in their current configuration. Consider the run from the Karrussell to the start finish in a car with enough aero and mechanical grip most of it is a foot to the floor dance on the razor's edge. Comparing the 911 TT and the Z06 to the Gt-R on this faster track the the higher power to weight cars have more time to use their high end acceleration advantage to overcome part of the GT-R's corner exit speeds.

The Z06 does have some stability issues on the Nring due to its 200+ top speed, high end acceleration coupled with its relative lack of downforce at those speeds. My guess is Jan's flight occured at Flugplatz or one of two humps after the Karussell but this is not unusual for high speed cars even with decent downforce, just ask Sir Jackie Stewert or any of the other F1 pilots who used the Green Hell for a runway prior to Lauda's accident.

Bottom line if you still want to disagree just head to the 'Ring plunk down your 21 Euros and run a lap or better yet take a Ring taxi ride, you will quickly see how important power is to lap times.

 

We can argue all day long. The GTR's AWD system puts power down quicker out of the apex (as you mentioned this equals higher exit speeds). The GTR's DSG transmission is foolproof. Both cars has very similar power outputs, the difference is weight.

You seem like a guy that's been on a track and should know how much time 6 seconds is on a relatively short course.

I'd like to see your theory put to the test at Road America. I do know that the straight there caters to high hp cars!

 

I don't know the names of each section of the ring, but I remember that there are basically 3 long sections in which power is everything. The GTR cannot go pass 200mph, redline at 186rpm, and fuel cut out at 193mph, if I remember correctly. The Z06 in 5th gear can reach 202mph.

 

I understand exactly how long 6 seconds is on a track. I just think that you simply refuse to admit that the GT-R could be that much faster than the Z06. You can question R&T all day long (hell, no magazine comparison is entirely unbiased), but to say that Millen intentionally drove the Z06 slow and the GT-R fast is silly. Maybe the Z06 that day was not working well for him. Maybe the Porsche was working extremely well. I dunno. THe fact is though that the GT-R was obviously working much better than either of them at that track on that day. The only way you will ever know for sure is to drive both and see for yourself (and I bet you would be much faster in the GT-R than the Z06 too)....

 

I agree, 6 seconds is huge. For cars so closely rated it doesnt seem right. Ive been to RA and gone against cars with more HP and better handling and they couldnt put 6 seconds on me and thats a longer course. (and they knew how to drive every bit out of the car)

 

How about we just wait for more tests in the US with a true production car? Like I said, I wouldn’t be arguing a peep if the GTR won by 1.5 seconds. 6 seconds is way too much of a gap.

Like I explained earlier, the Z06 has been tested time and time again (different tracks, drivers, conditions) to be significantly faster than a standard 997TT. This test shows them to be nearly equal on the track. Sorry, if that doesn’t bring up the flag I don’t know what to tell you.

Another thing that I saw posted on CorvetteForum is that C&D's writers drove the Z06 1 second faster at BW than Steve Millen who is a pro. Hmm....

 

6 seconds on even the N'ring is an eternity, 6 seconds on any average road track in the USA is a brutal drubbing for any car that can even be considered in the same breath.

Do I think the data is an accurate reflection of the cars? I am dubious BUT it would seem like it would take the world-wide media conspiring to further Nissan's cause.

As I have said before no matter if their is some fudge factor or ringer involved the GT-R is the real deal and dethrones the Z06 for the performance bargain on a road track at least, but no matter if it was 6 seconds faster around a autoX it still doesn't move me. Maybe behind the wheel it would be different but on paper it seems rather antiseptic.

 

Easy, AWD launch helps the GT-R from dead stop to 60 or 1/4.

Corvette has traction issues off the line, but once it hooks the, the V8 just has more muscle and gains on the GT-R like crazy. Just look at the trap speeds at the 1/4. 7 secs is huge.

The disparity has more to do with traction than weight of the vehicles, or how fast the transmission shifts.. The Z06 just has no way to put down all that power to the ground.
From a roll, the Z06 should walk the GT-R every time.

 

It's really not hard to understand the 6 second gap between the Z06 and the GT-R.

Millen himself said he was more confident in driving the GT-R faster than the Z06. Driver confidence is huge, lots of other drivers have stated that the Vette and 911T get twitchy close to the limit.
If you look at the charts, the GT-R is carrying much more speed in the esses and coming out of turns. It is much easier to drive the GT-R at the limit than the other 2.

As for the gap on the NRing... true it has more dips and turns and that's where the GT-R shines, but it also has a couple of long straights where the Z06 will gain massive ground, as evidenced by the straight line tests in this comparo.

 

I disagree with the editor........especially with the extremely slow lap set by the ZO6 around Buttonwillow. I would say that a driver mod is in order. Hopefully not an ex Nissan factory driver and ex Nissan factory racer. As for the comment on nothing to be gained, again Steve Millen owns a company and guess what............they are currently holding their 12th Annual Nissan/Infinity Appreciation Day


NOTHING TO BE GAINED?

From: http://www.stillen.com/







IDENTICAL TIMES?


From Swedish Automotorsport Magazine tests

Have a look at the G readings, the corner speed and also the speed around the track as compared to the 911 turbo.

From Automotorsport around Mantorp Park's short (1.950 km/1.212 mile) configuration

Corvette ZO6 - 1:27.5
Porsche 911 Turbo - 1:30.1


and another

From American Caranddriver Magazine lightning lap test

From:http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...p_2007_feature

Caranddriver The Lightning Lap at VIR, 2007

2007 Corvette ZO6 - 2:58.2
2007 Porsche 911 GT3 - 3:01.8
2007 Chevrolet Corvette - 3:03.6
2007 Porsche 911 Turbo - 3:05.8

 

^^
That's what I was talking about, in regards to the 997TT vs. Z06.

-Steve Millen's business caters to Nissans.
-Millen was also a Nissan factory driver and specialized in AWD rallying.

I'd like to see what Ron Fellows could do against Millen(or any other Nissan factory driver) in both cars.

 

In regards to the Lightning Lap test, there was a definite problem with the 911TT that day (it was basically tied with a Mustang GT500 which is ridiculous) so it was much slower than it should have been. It wouldn't have beaten the Z06 but it would have been much closer. As far as the GT-R goes, I think people are just fighting the hype. Some of you have a grudge against it because you feel as though it has been over-hyped and you just can't accept that Nissan has built a true track terror easily capable of out-running a Z06. Whether or not the car is 5 seconds faster is up for debate but no on here or anywhere else has said the they think the GT-R would have been slower than the Z06 regardless of any implied driver biases. More tests will be done down the road and I'm confident that you will see the same kind of results time and again.....

 

Was there a problem with the GT3 too that day?

 

Not enough GT-R trolling on GMI and VWV so you come to AZ?

 

For there to be a 6 sec difference at Streets of Willow would mean a near perfect lap for the GTR and really sloppy laps for both the 911 and the Z06. It wouldn't surprise me that a combination of familiarity with the car (Millen has probably been doing a fair amount of testing of the GT-R lately) and the dual clutch gearbox combined with AWD traction pulling that off. Nonetheless, 6 seconds on the Streets of Willow is a hell of a long time.

 

Sorry to end the conspriacy theory...

R&T has been using Millen for a while for some of they sports car tests.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/article....page_number=10

^OH snap.... in this comparo, Millen ranks the CORVETTE 1st and the NISSAN 8th.

Conspiracy theory my ass. Millen's been a factory driver for GM as well! As well as a multitude of other manufacturers, Porsche included.

 

Actually, you did me a favor. I was looking for that article and couldn't find it a few days ago. Millen was faster with Active Handling ON in Competition Mode. Also, C&D's staff writers posted a 1 second faster time around BW in a previous test.

It seems like Millen isn't comfortable in the Vette for some reason. I'd love to see what Ron Fellows or Lou Gigliotti could do in the Vette for comparison sake.

 

Millen's been racing for years and has plenty of talent as evidenced by the fact that he made the Vette go round BW quicker than the Viper. He's been a FACTORY DRIVER FOR GM.

BW has different configurations. Who knows what config. the C&D writers ran?

Bottomline. Same driver, same conditions....the GT-R beat the Z06 by 6 seconds.

EDIT: A little off-topic here, but from my personal experience of having driven a C6 Z06 on the track with the Active Handling fully off, I'd have to say that the car would probably be a little quicker in competition mode, where wild-out tail antics are reigned in. I believe this sentiment has been echoed in a number of reviews. However, I only drove the car for one session - it is possible that it might be quicker with the active handling fully off, but that didn't seem the case when I was driving it.

 

Millen currently has ties with Nissan and his business is Nissans.

Patrick Bedard ran the Z06 faster on the same config at BW:
http://www.fastestlaps.com/track22.html

Like I said, the fact of the matter is that he also couldn't drive a standard C6 quickly without Competition Mode on. I've been with pro drivers riding as passengers in various vettes. Everytime they were driving for lap times, the system was fullly off. I'd like to see a pro (corvette factory racer) who was capable of driving the Z06 to the limits test the car and see what it can do. Millen obviously wasn't comfortable with the car. There's no shame to that and some drivers feel comfortable in different platforms.

 

uhh.. the 350Z? He ranked the C6 over the 350Z? Wow, there's a shocker. If he had ranked the 350 higher in that test, people would have surely thought he was on crack. Not a valid comparison to the issue at hand, at all.

edit: oops it was a standard C6. But, what I said still stands. Just not as drastic.

 

I just want to see a true production car test. The cars that the press are getting aren't production cars. The C&D article clearly states that the car they tested was a "engineering mule". Who knows what the car has done to it. Nissan would be foolish to provide a ringer, but it has been done in the past.