Nissan Loses Its Relevance to Hyundai
12-03-2009, 02:53 PM
#41
Senior Moderator
I don't remember that either, and I was reading car magazines before the Accord line even existed. In the old old days, Japanese cars were simply considered buzzy little econo-cars for the extremely budget minded.
As far as Nissan and Hyundai are concerned:
1. Nissan would do well to upgrade their current crap interiors to something resembling Hyundai quality.
2. The original U.S. market Hyundai Excel was a true shitbox, and that's a hard reputation to erase....even 20 years on.
3. One used to chart Hyundai's progress by how many years behind the Japanese makes they appeared to be. Now they're on equal footing.
4. Another reason Hyundai's reputation has been hard to equate with the Japanese manufacturers is in their safety record. Only very recently have their vehicles performed on a par with other makes. Compare Hyundai to the Japanese makes on that point below. Note, Red and Black are bad, Green and Blue are good.
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/hyundai/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/toyota_us/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/honda/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/nissan/idx.htm
5. The last hill Hyundai has to climb specifically with enthusiasts is motorsports history. Aside from token entries in Rally and Drifting, they have none.
As far as Nissan and Hyundai are concerned:
1. Nissan would do well to upgrade their current crap interiors to something resembling Hyundai quality.
2. The original U.S. market Hyundai Excel was a true shitbox, and that's a hard reputation to erase....even 20 years on.
3. One used to chart Hyundai's progress by how many years behind the Japanese makes they appeared to be. Now they're on equal footing.
4. Another reason Hyundai's reputation has been hard to equate with the Japanese manufacturers is in their safety record. Only very recently have their vehicles performed on a par with other makes. Compare Hyundai to the Japanese makes on that point below. Note, Red and Black are bad, Green and Blue are good.
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/hyundai/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/toyota_us/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/honda/idx.htm
http://www.safecarguide.com/mak/nissan/idx.htm
5. The last hill Hyundai has to climb specifically with enthusiasts is motorsports history. Aside from token entries in Rally and Drifting, they have none.
I owned a 74 Toyota Corona and later replaced it with a 1980 Accord and they were much easier to pick up on the used car market than most domestics of similar age. (Times have changed on that one.)Nissan interiors could use a little refinement. However, the interior of my son's 05 Altima @ 110k is every bit as rattle, blemish and crack free as was my 07 AV6 when I turned it in two weeks ago @ 36k. So, I'm not as quick to slam Nissan interior quality. (Same deal with my old 02 Maxima and 05 Murano.)
As far as the original Excel goes,
. I used to own an 07 Excel SE, which was my first manual tranny car. It was a crap box. I traded it in for a used 89 Colt GT Turbo within six months. 
Ironcially the powertrain of said Colt made its way into what would be the 1G Hyundai Elantra -- sans turbo -- another crap box. (This was back when Hyundai and Mitsubishi were sharing powertrains....and in some instances cars --i.e.: Mitsubishi Precis/Hyundai Excel) So,
those images are hard to get out of my head as it is for most of those who've had experiences w/first and second generation Hyundais. Having sampled some the current Hyundai products, they rank fairly high on my personal IQS but it remains to be seen where they'll rank on my 5yr VDS.
12-03-2009, 04:00 PM
#42
The Genesis is a great car, and has been highly praised no doubt, but I am surprised at how low the sales are (Sedan + Coupe). The Maxima outsells both combined by almost 3x. They don't even outsell the Avalon.
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
12-03-2009, 04:29 PM
#43
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The Genesis is a great car, and has been highly praised no doubt, but I am surprised at how low the sales are (Sedan + Coupe). The Maxima outsells both combined by almost 3x. They don't even outsell the Avalon.
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
12-03-2009, 06:02 PM
#44
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i had a 1989 hyundai excel. I enjoyed it thoroughly, but it went through parts in 1993 like it was going out of style. To be fair it was an r-title and i paid $800 for it. At one point i was going through a $26 clutch cable every 2 weeks for 2 months.
I was capable of changing a clutch in 2 hours in that thing. The axles were going also.
It was a neat little car but it was a little crapbox of a car.
Hyundai reminds me of toyota in the 80's. Not many as many people were buying them compared to the domestics. They put a lot of features in for a really fair price and then people really started to notice and really started to purchase them. people buy these cars for the good value and reliability.
i would be interested in seeing the hyundais from the past 5 years or so in 5 or 10 more years. i would like to see if these things last 200-400k like toyota and honda.
I was capable of changing a clutch in 2 hours in that thing. The axles were going also.
It was a neat little car but it was a little crapbox of a car.
Hyundai reminds me of toyota in the 80's. Not many as many people were buying them compared to the domestics. They put a lot of features in for a really fair price and then people really started to notice and really started to purchase them. people buy these cars for the good value and reliability.
i would be interested in seeing the hyundais from the past 5 years or so in 5 or 10 more years. i would like to see if these things last 200-400k like toyota and honda.
12-03-2009, 09:38 PM
#45
12-04-2009, 08:14 AM
#46
Senior Moderator
The Genesis is a great car, and has been highly praised no doubt, but I am surprised at how low the sales are (Sedan + Coupe). The Maxima outsells both combined by almost 3x. They don't even outsell the Avalon.
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
November 2009
1. Maxima - 4,995
2. LaCrosse - 3,400
3. CC - 3,187
4. Lucerne - 2,171
5. Avalon - 1,944
6. Genesis (Sedan & Coupe) - 1,751
7. G8 - 584
8. Passat - 536
12-04-2009, 08:15 AM
#47
Senior Moderator
12-04-2009, 08:50 AM
#48
Rooting for Acura
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Im not sure why the genesis numbers are so low. My dad just went thru quite a bit trying to get one. There are many versions/colors of the sedan that have a 3-4 month wait because the color/interior combination are so sought after. We went to 4 dealers from wi to chicago that looked and couldnt locate a single one in what he was looking for in the states, and most didnt have any real stock of them and couldnt keep them in stock they were selling so good
12-04-2009, 10:46 AM
#49
Roughly twenty thousand units in its first year (not even a whole calendar year for the Genesis Coupe) is actually pretty good, considering the challenges with the consumers' perception of Hyundai. However, it does fall short of the original sales goal of 50,000 units but nobody is exempt from the recession.
Looking at the YTD sales of Lincoln, Audi, VW and Jaguar, the Genesis is on par or exceeds its respective competitor models' sales figures. With Lexus and BMW, it achieved roughly 50% of or slightly less than the competitors' sales figures. Not bad for a conquest sale model in its first year.
12-04-2009, 11:55 AM
#50
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Actually, those numbers aren't bad. It's not the bread-and-butter product line of Hyundai and it's a new venture into an uncharted territory for the company. The other models on that list are already well-established and have repeat customers. For Hyundai, just about every sale in that category is a conquest sale.
Roughly twenty thousand units in its first year (not even a whole calendar year for the Genesis Coupe) is actually pretty good, considering the challenges with the consumers' perception of Hyundai. However, it does fall short of the original sales goal of 50,000 units but nobody is exempt from the recession.
Looking at the YTD sales of Lincoln, Audi, VW and Jaguar, the Genesis is on par or exceeds its respective competitor models' sales figures. With Lexus and BMW, it achieved roughly 50% of or slightly less than the competitors' sales figures. Not bad for a conquest sale model in its first year.
Roughly twenty thousand units in its first year (not even a whole calendar year for the Genesis Coupe) is actually pretty good, considering the challenges with the consumers' perception of Hyundai. However, it does fall short of the original sales goal of 50,000 units but nobody is exempt from the recession.
Looking at the YTD sales of Lincoln, Audi, VW and Jaguar, the Genesis is on par or exceeds its respective competitor models' sales figures. With Lexus and BMW, it achieved roughly 50% of or slightly less than the competitors' sales figures. Not bad for a conquest sale model in its first year.
. But when compared to Lexus and Infinti the Genesis is doing dismal. The smaller less powerful ES and G are both outselling it. Anyway, I personally would never buy a Genesis and I think it's funny that when Edmunds did a comparo a year ago the V6 Lexus GS was faster than the V8 Genesis
12-04-2009, 11:58 AM
#51
Evil Mazda Driver
I had an 04 Santa Fe as well and I would probably say that it was one of the worst cars I have ever owned. Maybe it was not the car it self, but the service. We had that car in and out of the shop for about 2 months because they could not figure out what was wrong.
Leaving my wife stranded on the freeway 3-4 times.
I am positive that not all experiences were like this, but it def. tarnished my views on the company as a whole.
The last time that it was in the shop they were still unsure what it was. I asked them if it was running right now and they informed me that it was. I said to them to patch it all back up and I will be down to get it. I literally drove it from the Hyundai dealership to carmax.
Leaving my wife stranded on the freeway 3-4 times.
I am positive that not all experiences were like this, but it def. tarnished my views on the company as a whole.
The last time that it was in the shop they were still unsure what it was. I asked them if it was running right now and they informed me that it was. I said to them to patch it all back up and I will be down to get it. I literally drove it from the Hyundai dealership to carmax.
12-04-2009, 01:21 PM
#52
I'm not comparing the Genesis to Japanese luxury brands. The Genesis's sales compared to it's non-luxury competition are pretty low. The Avalon, Maxima, LaCrosse, and Lucerne outsold it last month. All of those cars are FWD and most of them only have one engine option, so as it stands compared to it's other non-lux competition the Genesis isn't doing amazing. I think the majority of Genesis sales are coming from disgruntled Acura owners if what's been going on here at Azine is any indication .
.
But when compared to Lexus and Infinti the Genesis is doing dismal. The smaller less powerful ES and G are both outselling it. Anyway, I personally would never buy a Genesis and I think it's funny that when Edmunds did a comparo a year ago the V6 Lexus GS was faster than the V8 Genesis
Yeah, I read the review, too. Your reference is totally misleading of the article's true intentions. Let me see your reference and raise you this one -
As tested, the GS 350 came fully equipped at $49,670. The Genesis showed up with a $4,000 Technology package and a $42,000 sticker. That's a thick $7,670 price difference, in case you haven't already made the calculation yourself. Yet the Genesis essentially matched the Lexus luxury for luxury, gizmo for gizmo.
For other people, you can read the comparo here - http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...us-gs-350.html
It's interesting because the article was written in August of 2008, right before the recession hit. The article says in the end that the Genesis won in points, but the points don't factor in the prestige... and how the brand-conscious consumers may not take out a second mortgage to buy a Hyundai and would rather buy the Lexus GS. Oh, how the tables have turned, as the GS sales have declined during the recession from 13k to 5k in just a year from 10/2008 to 10/2009, respectively.
12-04-2009, 03:05 PM
#53
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YTD until early October, the Genesis was at 16k. In the same period, the LaCrosse was at 16k, the Lucerne was at 24k, the Maxima at 38k, the Avalon at 19k. It's not in the lead by any means, but it's not too far behind, either. It's a new model and a new market.
The ES was at 33k YTD when Genesis was at 16k. Again, not bad for doing half of the most popular Lexus model in its first year. In the same period, the GS sold 5k units.
Yeah, I read the review, too. Your reference is totally misleading of the article's true intentions. Let me see your reference and raise you this one -
The GS350 won by a tenth in the quarter-mile because it weights 300+ pounds less, not because the Lexus V6 is superior to Hyundai's V8 or anything.
For other people, you can read the comparo here - http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...us-gs-350.html
It's interesting because the article was written in August of 2008, right before the recession hit. The article says in the end that the Genesis won in points, but the points don't factor in the prestige... and how the brand-conscious consumers may not take out a second mortgage to buy a Hyundai and would rather buy the Lexus GS. Oh, how the tables have turned, as the GS sales have declined during the recession from 13k to 5k in just a year from 10/2008 to 10/2009, respectively.
The ES was at 33k YTD when Genesis was at 16k. Again, not bad for doing half of the most popular Lexus model in its first year. In the same period, the GS sold 5k units.
Yeah, I read the review, too. Your reference is totally misleading of the article's true intentions. Let me see your reference and raise you this one -
The GS350 won by a tenth in the quarter-mile because it weights 300+ pounds less, not because the Lexus V6 is superior to Hyundai's V8 or anything.
For other people, you can read the comparo here - http://www.insideline.com/hyundai/ge...us-gs-350.html
It's interesting because the article was written in August of 2008, right before the recession hit. The article says in the end that the Genesis won in points, but the points don't factor in the prestige... and how the brand-conscious consumers may not take out a second mortgage to buy a Hyundai and would rather buy the Lexus GS. Oh, how the tables have turned, as the GS sales have declined during the recession from 13k to 5k in just a year from 10/2008 to 10/2009, respectively.
12-04-2009, 03:35 PM
#54
I'm the Firestarter
12-04-2009, 10:31 PM
#56
What, I can't provide numbers without being accused of being a fanboi but you can?
Last edited by Pure Adrenaline; 12-04-2009 at 10:33 PM.
12-04-2009, 11:19 PM
#60
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I'd like to see the 1st years sales of Lexus and Acura for comparison... and I'd wager that Hyundai is doing pretty good relatively speaking. IMO the Genesis is somewhere above the Maxima and Avalon and below the Infiniti M and Lexus ES.
12-05-2009, 07:33 AM
#61
Senior Moderator
12-05-2009, 08:06 AM
#62
Senior Moderator
I wish I would have know that about 3 weeks ago. Not that I have any regrets on getting our 09 MDX (the complements have been nonstop)but, I'm certain I could have saved thousands by getting a 10 Verazruz.
12-05-2009, 02:06 PM
#63
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I'm not out to prove anything. You just seem to have this attitude that you would never buy a Genesis, which I'm fine with, but a preconceived notion that it's a failure or something based on some misleading data, which is not correct.
What, I can't provide numbers without being accused of being a fanboi but you can?
What, I can't provide numbers without being accused of being a fanboi but you can?
12-05-2009, 02:16 PM
#64
Senior Moderator
12-06-2009, 08:55 PM
#66
Senior Moderator
12-07-2009, 09:54 AM
#68
Evil Mazda Driver
All the Equus models shown in the US thus far have been KDM models temporarily imported for promotional use. The production North American spec will probably be toned down a bit.
12-07-2009, 12:28 PM
#70
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PM once Audi's US sales are as high as Lexus
12-07-2009, 12:37 PM
#71
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I doubt that will ever happen. Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus didn't get the success they have now by selling the cheapest car in America. The Genesis is nice, but sedans like the Genesis are already sold globally by Nissan (Fugo), Honda (Legend), and Toyota (Crown). If the Genesis ever posed a legitimate threat, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota can just bring those sedans over to compete with it. Toyota is actually considering this since they've registered the trademark Crown in the US. If the Crown replaced the Avalon then Toyota will have their own RWD V8 sedan. Does that mean that the Toyota brand would all of the sudden be at the level of BMW/Mercedes? No.
PM once Audi's US sales are as high as Lexus
PM once Audi's US sales are as high as Lexus
Last edited by mrdeeno; 12-07-2009 at 12:39 PM.
12-07-2009, 12:46 PM
#72
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More like the late 80s they were like that - I had a 98 Elantra and a mid-90s Sonata V6 that were really good cars. Solid, reliable, comfortable, and no rust even though they dump assloads of salt on the roads around here...I would absolutely consider a Genesis sedan, I've poked around inside of a couple but have yet to drive one...
12-07-2009, 12:47 PM
#73
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My point is that if the Genesis were really eating into Nissan there are things Nissan could do. Sedans like the Genesis aren't unique globally. Every mainstream brand globally has a RWD or AWD flagship sedan. It's only a new concept in the US and Hyundai decided to capitalize on that, but that doesn't mean Nissan or anyone else is defenseless against it. If the Genesis posed a legitimate threat Honda and Nissan could bring those sedans over as "Hondas and Nissans". At that point they could change some of the bodywork for the Acura and Infinti versions. Since they haven't done that and don't seem to plan on doing that, I don't think that they care about the Genesis's impact. And for Nissan their FWD V6 Maxima is still outselling the Genesis.
12-07-2009, 01:53 PM
#74
Evil Mazda Driver
Hyundai was originally going to introduce the Genesis under a new LUXURY brand name but decided that the present economy did not present an ideal time to do so.
12-07-2009, 03:09 PM
#75
Senior Moderator
12-07-2009, 03:39 PM
#76
I doubt that will ever happen. Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus didn't get the success they have now by selling the cheapest car in America. The Genesis is nice, but sedans like the Genesis are already sold globally by Nissan (Fugo), Honda (Legend), and Toyota (Crown). If the Genesis ever posed a legitimate threat, Nissan, Honda, and Toyota can just bring those sedans over to compete with it. Toyota is actually considering this since they've registered the trademark Crown in the US. If the Crown replaced the Avalon then Toyota will have their own RWD V8 sedan. Does that mean that the Toyota brand would all of the sudden be at the level of BMW/Mercedes? No.
Right, because Honda, Toyota and Nissan all came to the U.S. market with an already well-established luxury nameplate and great customer base. They all started from scratch, dude. Get your facts right.Honda became successful because of the econoboxes they sold during the oil crisis. American consumers didn't really turn to the fuel efficient Japanese cars until their wallets made them do so. Then they realized just how competitive their cars are.
Fuga, by the way.
Hyundai does pose a legitimate threat, and Toyota, Honda and GM have publicly acknowledged this.
The Genesis is not unique to the market, but it is a unique approach to a new market for Hyundai and it is doing well. I don't see the NACOTY award on any of those cars you mentioned.
Twenty years ago, Hyundai was known for its cheap Excel which was the best-selling compact car for about 3 years. Ten years ago, it was a mediocre company in the U.S. Now it's the fifth largest company in the world and one of only THREE in the U.S. this year (one of the other two being its sister company Kia) to have gained market share and increased sales.
It seems to me like you are one of the few failing to see the upward pattern here. Thirty years ago, your parents said the same thing about Honda and Toyota. Now you are saying it about Hyundai. In twenty years, your child will be saying the same thing about Geely or Brilliance (or whoever decides to gamble in the U.S. market) and comparing them to Hyundai.
12-07-2009, 03:44 PM
#77
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Ever? HAHAHAHAHA!!! Right, because Honda, Toyota and Nissan all came to the U.S. market with an already well-established luxury nameplate and great customer base. They all started from scratch, dude. Get your facts right.
Honda became successful because of the econoboxes they sold during the oil crisis. American consumers didn't really turn to the fuel efficient Japanese cars until their wallets made them do so. Then they realized just how competitive their cars are.
Fuga, by the way.
Hyundai does pose a legitimate threat, and Toyota, Honda and GM have publicly acknowledged this.
The Genesis is not unique to the market, but it is a unique approach to a new market for Hyundai and it is doing well. I don't see the NACOTY award on any of those cars you mentioned.
Twenty years ago, Hyundai was known for its cheap Excel which was the best-selling compact car for about 3 years. Ten years ago, it was a mediocre company in the U.S. Now it's the fifth largest company in the world and one of only THREE in the U.S. this year (one of the other two being its sister company Kia) to have gained market share and increased sales.
It seems to me like you are one of the few failing to see the upward pattern here. Thirty years ago, your parents said the same thing about Honda and Toyota. Now you are saying it about Hyundai. In twenty years, your child will be saying the same thing about Geely or Brilliance (or whoever decides to gamble in the U.S. market) and comparing them to Hyundai.
Right, because Honda, Toyota and Nissan all came to the U.S. market with an already well-established luxury nameplate and great customer base. They all started from scratch, dude. Get your facts right.Honda became successful because of the econoboxes they sold during the oil crisis. American consumers didn't really turn to the fuel efficient Japanese cars until their wallets made them do so. Then they realized just how competitive their cars are.
Fuga, by the way.
Hyundai does pose a legitimate threat, and Toyota, Honda and GM have publicly acknowledged this.
The Genesis is not unique to the market, but it is a unique approach to a new market for Hyundai and it is doing well. I don't see the NACOTY award on any of those cars you mentioned.
Twenty years ago, Hyundai was known for its cheap Excel which was the best-selling compact car for about 3 years. Ten years ago, it was a mediocre company in the U.S. Now it's the fifth largest company in the world and one of only THREE in the U.S. this year (one of the other two being its sister company Kia) to have gained market share and increased sales.
It seems to me like you are one of the few failing to see the upward pattern here. Thirty years ago, your parents said the same thing about Honda and Toyota. Now you are saying it about Hyundai. In twenty years, your child will be saying the same thing about Geely or Brilliance (or whoever decides to gamble in the U.S. market) and comparing them to Hyundai.
12-07-2009, 04:09 PM
#78
Senior Moderator
You completely misinterpreted everything I said. My point is that Hyundai will never be a luxury brand. They are already a competitive mainstream brand, and I think that's what they'll always be. Their already at the level of Honda and Toyota that can't be disputed. My point is that their not, and likely won't ever be at the level of Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes Benz.
12-08-2009, 02:27 PM
#79
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Its still a hyundai.
I used to drive a accent, biggest piece of shit I ever bought for 500 bucks, and it only had 62k miles.
Will never buy another hyundai....ever
I'll stick with the jap cars, if anything I will buy a 90's car and try to keep it as long as possible. Best years for Japanese car makers if any I personally believe.
I used to drive a accent, biggest piece of shit I ever bought for 500 bucks, and it only had 62k miles.
Will never buy another hyundai....ever
I'll stick with the jap cars, if anything I will buy a 90's car and try to keep it as long as possible. Best years for Japanese car makers if any I personally believe.
12-08-2009, 02:39 PM
#80
Senior Moderator
Honestly and though a POS, the Accent was a HUGE step up from the 2G Excel.