Jack Baruth: The GT-R is Bad For Nissan
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Jack Baruth: The GT-R is Bad For Nissan
We like Jack. Aside from being a hell of a race driver and future LeMons teammate, Jack Baruth is one of the most refreshing voices in the auto rag biz. His take on the new GT-R? Not good. While he's got nothing against the car per se, he's asking, "Who's going to buy it?" Jack argues that the GT-R's main competitors (Corvettes and 911s) have deeply entrenched, well-heeled fan bases with multiple owners clubs and racing series. The GT-R has fat kids in Mom's basement with carpel tunneled thumbs and a Slurpee's chance in Hell of getting the $70,000 needed to buy "Godzilla." He's also doubtful that the "Car Formerly Known as Skyline" will be much of a halo vehicle for Nissan, pointing out that the best thing about previous Skylines was that they didn't actually exist. They were myth. Now that they are bloated, expensive reality? Meh. Furthermore the GT-R is going to turn the 350Z into the "Nissan with panties." And finally, for those that can afford such a beast, are they going to enjoy slumming it down to their Nissan dealer where they might accidentally be seen next to a Versa? Nope. And Jack should know; he's the proud owner of two Volkswagen Phaetons.
I can’t count the number of times during my long and painful BMX career when I sat on my bike, sized up some dirt jump, wooden ramp, or fifteen-stair drop-off, and thought long and hard about how much I’d regret what I was about to do, should it go wrong. Most of the time, my pessimism was unfounded - I’d clear the jump, bound over the obstacle, land the drop. Every once in a while, however, I’d lose my balance, slip a pedal, or just plain run out of talent, and for a tiny, sickening fraction of a second, my breath would catch in my throat before I hit the ground to the accompanying “crack” of a broken bone. I never actually heard a bone break, mind you; it always felt like a really sharp pinch in a place where no pinching should be possible. The memory of that little “pinch” is what made me sit on my bike for an extra moment or two before cranking off towards disaster. There were times I’d have liked to just sit there until it was time to go home, but the difference between the rider and the poser is that the poser never stops just sitting there on the bike. You’ll never get hurt just sitting there.
If I don’t make the prediction I’m about to unleash - if I turn this column towards a safer topic, like E85 pricing or trail-braking techniques for FWD race cars - I won’t get hurt. There won’t be any hate mail. Zerin, my long-suffering editor, won’t get any calls from the manufacturers. It’ll be business as usual. I should really shut up right now.
Oh, the hell with that. Let’s pedal towards the jump and make a prediction. I believe that Nissan is making a potentially serious error in importing the new GT-R to the United States and Canada. I believe that they will eventually regret doing so, and that the GT-R will join that time-honored long list of big-money automotive marketing mistakes that contains everything from the Edsel to the Lincoln Blackwood. Yeah, yeah, I know. Some of my dear readers are already searching for the “Respond” button at the bottom of this column so they can make unpleasant and biologically improbable suggestions regarding my momma, while the more action-oriented among you are already
GoogleMapping a very special trip for the purpose of beating my face in at the NASA season opener. (It’s April 12, at Mid-Ohio, if you must know.) If there’s anybody left who simply wants to know the reasons behind this particular piece of prophecy… you’ll just have to put the chainsaw down and keep reading.
Before we talk about failure, we have to define what we mean by success. From Nissan’s perspective, I think it’s fair to say that the GT-R will “succeed” if it accomplishes the following pair of tasks:
* The GT-R must create a “halo effect” that leads to increased showroom traffic, greater sales of less-expensive models, particularly performance models, and a greater and more positive awareness of Nissan and its products among the general public and the enthusiast market.
* The GT-R must break even in the North American market. Failing that, it shouldn’t lose too much money for Nissan’s North American operations.
Note that nowhere in there did we talk about selling a zillion GT-Rs, or dominating trackdays across the land, or cutting into Corvette and Porsche sales. We didn’t talk about that stuff because nobody with any sense thinks any of it’s actually going to happen. You see, there’s no real long-term market for the GT-R in North America. To understand why, you have to look at the truly successful entries in the $50,000 - $100,000 performance car market. There are really only two, and we’ve already named them.
Both Porsche and the Corvette brand have hundreds of thousands of devoted fans, many of whom can actually afford their products. There are millions of men and women in the United States and Canada who grew up with 911 Turbo or C4 Corvette posters on their wall, and they’re now at an age where they can purchase the cars and enjoy them. There is a strong secondary market for used Porsches and Corvettes, encompassing everything from lightly used Carrera GTs to salvage-title ‘84 Cross-Fire-Injection C4s. Not only is there an entire club for people who want to race Porsches on weekends - the Porsche Club of America - there’s an entire second club for people who think the people in the first club are insufferable pricks, and they call it the Porsche Owners’ Club.
Meanwhile, there are so many people spending their lives restoring Corvettes that they have multiple sources to certify them - NCRS and Bloomington Gold. In my little hometown of Powell, Ohio, which barely has ten thousand residents, there are at least thirty dues-paying members of PCA, including myself, and there are dozens of Corvettes prowling the streets in the summers. The sheer magnitude of Corvette and Porsche devotion out there is almost unimaginable, and as a result, the two brands combine to sell more than sixty thousand new sports cars in the United States every year.
What’s the Nissan GT-R’s market base? Well, it’s primarily made up of people who play Gran Turismo and its descendants, plus a smattering of kids who thought the car with the Impala-esque taillights in 2Fast 2Furious was pretty cool. Most of these people live in the basements of their parents’ homes. Do you see the problem with the idea of marketing a $70,000 car to people who still live with their parents and who spend all night on XBOX Live?
If you don’t, allow me to point it out for you: These kids don’t have any money. They may be tremendously knowledgeable car enthusiasts and very nice people, but when I was seventeen years old, I was a knowledgeable car enthusiast too, and I don’t remember buying any $70,000 cars with my minimum-wage earnings from working the parts counter at David Hobbs BMW.
“Oh, Jack, you’re being deliberately ignorant.” I can hear you now. “There are plenty of wealthy, adult car enthusiasts who know and respect the GT-R.” Well, that’s true. There are plenty of Google employees, “Gold Collar” kids who, although they live with their parents at the age of 27, are earning a GT-R payment by working at Abercrombie & Fitch, and bored rich people who will buy anything that’s new and hot. Hey, there were a few people who laid out a hundred grand for imported Motorex R34 Skylines, right? All of those people might buy a GT-R. The only problem is that very few of these people spent their youths dreaming of the GT-R, and if they did, they were dreaming of the icy-cool, JDM-to-the-max R33 or R34, not this porky monster G35x that Nissan is preparing to bring to these shores.
A lot of these people are going to get their seventy grand together and be struck by the undeniable fact that they could buy a Z06 Corvette or Carrera 3.6 with that money! For kids who dreamed of hammering a Nine Eleven down the autobahn, the prospect of slumming down to the Nissan dealer and buying a Nissan from the Nissan dealer who sells Nissans (have I repeated “Nissan” enough here? I hope it’s enough to make the point) is just not gonna happen.
You know what, though? It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t. Nissan can sell 1,500 GT-Rs a year to Silicon Valley geeks and rich kids who want to indulge their Brian Earl Spilner fantasies, no problem. The Acura NSX sold pretty well at first, too, mostly due to the novelty factor and the fact that people were tired of having their Ferrari 348s towed out of their garages twice a month. All this talk about doing five thousand units a year is sheer bravado, meant to convince the dealers to spend upwards of $300K each to upgrade their shops for “GT-R capability”.
This will be a low-volume car, poking along at the bottom of the sales sheet with its distant cousin, the Infiniti Q45, until the cost of a new-generation EPA certification causes Nissan to knock it off the price list. It isn’t the prospect of slow sales that makes me pessimistic about the GT-R. Rather, the real problem, from Nissan’s perspective, is what it will do to their brand, their fans, and their existing cars.
Let’s be honest: the greatest thing about the R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R was that we couldn’t buy it here. In countries where you could buy Nissan’s super-sedan with little difficulty, such as the UK, customers were staggeringly indifferent to “Godzilla”, preferring instead to have a nice Porsche, or maybe a hairy-chested TVR. The only place where the Skyline sold well was Japan, for the same reason the Mustang GT sells well over here: the price/performance ratio was right and it was a domestic-market hero for angry young kids with time on their hands and a few yen in their pockets.
Still, Nissan made some hay over here with the legend, which greatly surpassed the reality. Go ahead, tell me that when the “Spec V” Sentra SE-R came out, you didn’t think it was cooler for having that badge on the back. I sure as hell did, and I know I wasn’t alone.
Plus, those Cheetos-munching PlayStation addicts of whom we spoke earlier might not have a GT-R’s worth of scratch, but they do have parents who are willing to buy ‘em Sentras with the “sport package”. The actual merits of the Skyline were utterly irrelevant - not when the closest you can get to one is clicking “Buy This Car” in GT4. As the old quote goes, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
Will that legend, of improbably fast ‘Ring times, thousand-horsepower “Big Birds”, and parking-garage races in Tokyo, still sell Sentras and Altimas when the real GT-R is sitting right next to them on the showroom floor? The answer is a resounding No.
It’s one thing to be a Sentra-driving GT-R fan when the real GT-R is safely on the other side of a whole ocean, but what happens when that same kid drives his Sentra to the local community college and sees that his rich-kid classmate has an R35 GT-R? We haven’t even considered what the effect will be on Nissan’s current performance flagship, the fierce and fantastic 350Z. The minute the first GT-R hits these shores, the 350Z becomes the “Nissan with panties”, tucked sadly in the shadow of its mighty stablemate.
And with a forty-thousand-dollar price gap between the two, it’s hard to imagine too many 350Z owners trading up to the Car Formerly Known As Skyline. The “halo effect” of the GT-R is going to be very dim in your local Nissan showroom.
I can’t help but think that Nissan had a better option than bringing us a 3800-pound Angry Catfish with a Porsche-sized Monroney slapped on the window; namely, a 500Z. We all know the FM platform will accept the soul-stirring Infiniti quad-cam V8 - it’s already resident in the FX45 and M45 - and there’s no reason a little light tuning wouldn’t result in four hundred horsepower, easy. Add the Track Package Brembos, seam-weld the chassis in the fashion of the Nismo Z, and charge $45K for it. Maybe they could widen the tires a bit for those of us who find the stock Z just a little too reluctant to turn in sometimes. Sure, it might not beat the 997 Turbo around the ‘Ring, but it would hang with an LS3 ‘Vette on Saturday night, and that’s a lot more important on Main Street USA, where the buyers are.
Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. It could all turn out in storybook fashion. The dealers won’t mark ‘em up so high they never leave the lots, (see GTO, Pontiac, 2004 for more details on this self-defeating strategy) the basement-dwelling hobbits will earn magic sacks of cash in World of Warcraft, enabling them to buy a healthy allocation of GT-Rs year after year, the mandatory annual “tuneup” won’t piss everybody off so badly they dump their Not A Skyline and buy a Z06 after all… it could all happen according to Nissan’s plan. I’m a bit of a Datsun/Nissan fan, you know. My first car was a bad-assed two-tone 200SX fastback. I made the hilariously stupid decision to sell Infinitis when I graduated from school simply because I loved the Q45 and I wanted to have one as a demo. (That wish was never granted, by the way, as it was hard enough to sell those cars without six thousand miles on them.) I still smile when I see a young person in a 350Z. It reaffirms my hope that automotive enthusiasm in this country hasn’t gone the way of the Prius, I mean, the dodo. Nissan makes good cars, and I think the GT-R is going to be a good car. I’m having a hard time swallowing all the hype, but make no mistake: the people who do purchase a GT-R are unlikely to regret their purchase.
In the era of the aforementioned Toyota Pious, it’s also important to recognize the magnitude of the chance Nissan has taken by building this R35 model. The GT-R is a moon shot of sorts, an honest attempt to build the best car possible, consequences be damned. I admire that sort of effort; in fact, the last time I saw a car like this - a car which promised to transcend the boundaries of branding in pursuit of matchless excellence - I put not one, but two examples of that car in my driveway. Great cars, too. They show exactly what can be done when a mass-market manufacturer builds a cost-no-object eighty-thousand-dollar vehicle and ignores all the issues of despicable dealers, non-existent brand prestige, and a vanishingly small pool of buyers. You could say that the builder of my cars had a terrifying set of double jumps in front of them, and they pedaled as hard as they could, knowing they might crash but hoping they would soar over the doubters. It was a tremendous effort, and I really, really love the result, my perfect pair of Phaetons…
If I don’t make the prediction I’m about to unleash - if I turn this column towards a safer topic, like E85 pricing or trail-braking techniques for FWD race cars - I won’t get hurt. There won’t be any hate mail. Zerin, my long-suffering editor, won’t get any calls from the manufacturers. It’ll be business as usual. I should really shut up right now.
Oh, the hell with that. Let’s pedal towards the jump and make a prediction. I believe that Nissan is making a potentially serious error in importing the new GT-R to the United States and Canada. I believe that they will eventually regret doing so, and that the GT-R will join that time-honored long list of big-money automotive marketing mistakes that contains everything from the Edsel to the Lincoln Blackwood. Yeah, yeah, I know. Some of my dear readers are already searching for the “Respond” button at the bottom of this column so they can make unpleasant and biologically improbable suggestions regarding my momma, while the more action-oriented among you are already
GoogleMapping a very special trip for the purpose of beating my face in at the NASA season opener. (It’s April 12, at Mid-Ohio, if you must know.) If there’s anybody left who simply wants to know the reasons behind this particular piece of prophecy… you’ll just have to put the chainsaw down and keep reading.
Before we talk about failure, we have to define what we mean by success. From Nissan’s perspective, I think it’s fair to say that the GT-R will “succeed” if it accomplishes the following pair of tasks:
* The GT-R must create a “halo effect” that leads to increased showroom traffic, greater sales of less-expensive models, particularly performance models, and a greater and more positive awareness of Nissan and its products among the general public and the enthusiast market.
* The GT-R must break even in the North American market. Failing that, it shouldn’t lose too much money for Nissan’s North American operations.
Note that nowhere in there did we talk about selling a zillion GT-Rs, or dominating trackdays across the land, or cutting into Corvette and Porsche sales. We didn’t talk about that stuff because nobody with any sense thinks any of it’s actually going to happen. You see, there’s no real long-term market for the GT-R in North America. To understand why, you have to look at the truly successful entries in the $50,000 - $100,000 performance car market. There are really only two, and we’ve already named them.
Both Porsche and the Corvette brand have hundreds of thousands of devoted fans, many of whom can actually afford their products. There are millions of men and women in the United States and Canada who grew up with 911 Turbo or C4 Corvette posters on their wall, and they’re now at an age where they can purchase the cars and enjoy them. There is a strong secondary market for used Porsches and Corvettes, encompassing everything from lightly used Carrera GTs to salvage-title ‘84 Cross-Fire-Injection C4s. Not only is there an entire club for people who want to race Porsches on weekends - the Porsche Club of America - there’s an entire second club for people who think the people in the first club are insufferable pricks, and they call it the Porsche Owners’ Club.
Meanwhile, there are so many people spending their lives restoring Corvettes that they have multiple sources to certify them - NCRS and Bloomington Gold. In my little hometown of Powell, Ohio, which barely has ten thousand residents, there are at least thirty dues-paying members of PCA, including myself, and there are dozens of Corvettes prowling the streets in the summers. The sheer magnitude of Corvette and Porsche devotion out there is almost unimaginable, and as a result, the two brands combine to sell more than sixty thousand new sports cars in the United States every year.
What’s the Nissan GT-R’s market base? Well, it’s primarily made up of people who play Gran Turismo and its descendants, plus a smattering of kids who thought the car with the Impala-esque taillights in 2Fast 2Furious was pretty cool. Most of these people live in the basements of their parents’ homes. Do you see the problem with the idea of marketing a $70,000 car to people who still live with their parents and who spend all night on XBOX Live?
If you don’t, allow me to point it out for you: These kids don’t have any money. They may be tremendously knowledgeable car enthusiasts and very nice people, but when I was seventeen years old, I was a knowledgeable car enthusiast too, and I don’t remember buying any $70,000 cars with my minimum-wage earnings from working the parts counter at David Hobbs BMW.
“Oh, Jack, you’re being deliberately ignorant.” I can hear you now. “There are plenty of wealthy, adult car enthusiasts who know and respect the GT-R.” Well, that’s true. There are plenty of Google employees, “Gold Collar” kids who, although they live with their parents at the age of 27, are earning a GT-R payment by working at Abercrombie & Fitch, and bored rich people who will buy anything that’s new and hot. Hey, there were a few people who laid out a hundred grand for imported Motorex R34 Skylines, right? All of those people might buy a GT-R. The only problem is that very few of these people spent their youths dreaming of the GT-R, and if they did, they were dreaming of the icy-cool, JDM-to-the-max R33 or R34, not this porky monster G35x that Nissan is preparing to bring to these shores.
A lot of these people are going to get their seventy grand together and be struck by the undeniable fact that they could buy a Z06 Corvette or Carrera 3.6 with that money! For kids who dreamed of hammering a Nine Eleven down the autobahn, the prospect of slumming down to the Nissan dealer and buying a Nissan from the Nissan dealer who sells Nissans (have I repeated “Nissan” enough here? I hope it’s enough to make the point) is just not gonna happen.
You know what, though? It doesn’t matter. It really doesn’t. Nissan can sell 1,500 GT-Rs a year to Silicon Valley geeks and rich kids who want to indulge their Brian Earl Spilner fantasies, no problem. The Acura NSX sold pretty well at first, too, mostly due to the novelty factor and the fact that people were tired of having their Ferrari 348s towed out of their garages twice a month. All this talk about doing five thousand units a year is sheer bravado, meant to convince the dealers to spend upwards of $300K each to upgrade their shops for “GT-R capability”.
This will be a low-volume car, poking along at the bottom of the sales sheet with its distant cousin, the Infiniti Q45, until the cost of a new-generation EPA certification causes Nissan to knock it off the price list. It isn’t the prospect of slow sales that makes me pessimistic about the GT-R. Rather, the real problem, from Nissan’s perspective, is what it will do to their brand, their fans, and their existing cars.
Let’s be honest: the greatest thing about the R34 Nissan Skyline GT-R was that we couldn’t buy it here. In countries where you could buy Nissan’s super-sedan with little difficulty, such as the UK, customers were staggeringly indifferent to “Godzilla”, preferring instead to have a nice Porsche, or maybe a hairy-chested TVR. The only place where the Skyline sold well was Japan, for the same reason the Mustang GT sells well over here: the price/performance ratio was right and it was a domestic-market hero for angry young kids with time on their hands and a few yen in their pockets.
Still, Nissan made some hay over here with the legend, which greatly surpassed the reality. Go ahead, tell me that when the “Spec V” Sentra SE-R came out, you didn’t think it was cooler for having that badge on the back. I sure as hell did, and I know I wasn’t alone.
Plus, those Cheetos-munching PlayStation addicts of whom we spoke earlier might not have a GT-R’s worth of scratch, but they do have parents who are willing to buy ‘em Sentras with the “sport package”. The actual merits of the Skyline were utterly irrelevant - not when the closest you can get to one is clicking “Buy This Car” in GT4. As the old quote goes, “When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.”
Will that legend, of improbably fast ‘Ring times, thousand-horsepower “Big Birds”, and parking-garage races in Tokyo, still sell Sentras and Altimas when the real GT-R is sitting right next to them on the showroom floor? The answer is a resounding No.
It’s one thing to be a Sentra-driving GT-R fan when the real GT-R is safely on the other side of a whole ocean, but what happens when that same kid drives his Sentra to the local community college and sees that his rich-kid classmate has an R35 GT-R? We haven’t even considered what the effect will be on Nissan’s current performance flagship, the fierce and fantastic 350Z. The minute the first GT-R hits these shores, the 350Z becomes the “Nissan with panties”, tucked sadly in the shadow of its mighty stablemate.
And with a forty-thousand-dollar price gap between the two, it’s hard to imagine too many 350Z owners trading up to the Car Formerly Known As Skyline. The “halo effect” of the GT-R is going to be very dim in your local Nissan showroom.
I can’t help but think that Nissan had a better option than bringing us a 3800-pound Angry Catfish with a Porsche-sized Monroney slapped on the window; namely, a 500Z. We all know the FM platform will accept the soul-stirring Infiniti quad-cam V8 - it’s already resident in the FX45 and M45 - and there’s no reason a little light tuning wouldn’t result in four hundred horsepower, easy. Add the Track Package Brembos, seam-weld the chassis in the fashion of the Nismo Z, and charge $45K for it. Maybe they could widen the tires a bit for those of us who find the stock Z just a little too reluctant to turn in sometimes. Sure, it might not beat the 997 Turbo around the ‘Ring, but it would hang with an LS3 ‘Vette on Saturday night, and that’s a lot more important on Main Street USA, where the buyers are.
Of course, I could be wrong about all of this. It could all turn out in storybook fashion. The dealers won’t mark ‘em up so high they never leave the lots, (see GTO, Pontiac, 2004 for more details on this self-defeating strategy) the basement-dwelling hobbits will earn magic sacks of cash in World of Warcraft, enabling them to buy a healthy allocation of GT-Rs year after year, the mandatory annual “tuneup” won’t piss everybody off so badly they dump their Not A Skyline and buy a Z06 after all… it could all happen according to Nissan’s plan. I’m a bit of a Datsun/Nissan fan, you know. My first car was a bad-assed two-tone 200SX fastback. I made the hilariously stupid decision to sell Infinitis when I graduated from school simply because I loved the Q45 and I wanted to have one as a demo. (That wish was never granted, by the way, as it was hard enough to sell those cars without six thousand miles on them.) I still smile when I see a young person in a 350Z. It reaffirms my hope that automotive enthusiasm in this country hasn’t gone the way of the Prius, I mean, the dodo. Nissan makes good cars, and I think the GT-R is going to be a good car. I’m having a hard time swallowing all the hype, but make no mistake: the people who do purchase a GT-R are unlikely to regret their purchase.
In the era of the aforementioned Toyota Pious, it’s also important to recognize the magnitude of the chance Nissan has taken by building this R35 model. The GT-R is a moon shot of sorts, an honest attempt to build the best car possible, consequences be damned. I admire that sort of effort; in fact, the last time I saw a car like this - a car which promised to transcend the boundaries of branding in pursuit of matchless excellence - I put not one, but two examples of that car in my driveway. Great cars, too. They show exactly what can be done when a mass-market manufacturer builds a cost-no-object eighty-thousand-dollar vehicle and ignores all the issues of despicable dealers, non-existent brand prestige, and a vanishingly small pool of buyers. You could say that the builder of my cars had a terrifying set of double jumps in front of them, and they pedaled as hard as they could, knowing they might crash but hoping they would soar over the doubters. It was a tremendous effort, and I really, really love the result, my perfect pair of Phaetons…
#4
The sizzle in the Steak
Guy has valid points.
#5
how handsome I am
This was a great article, but I dont think it will be this bad for nissan... he makes a good laugh about the Z being a "nissan with panties" though lol
#7
Moderator Alumnus
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Originally Posted by Walmart Gangsta
nissan had a whole staff dedicated to customer demographics...test groups...advertising..etc..
im sure they know how the release will affect the company
im sure they know how the release will affect the company
So does every car company, hell every product has a company with all of that and we've all seem some flat out failures.
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#10
Engineer
Originally Posted by eclipse23
So does every car company, hell every product has a company with all of that and we've all seem some flat out failures.
remember the Aztec?
#11
Engineer
Originally Posted by Donte99TL
Guy has some good points, but that car is going to sell like hotcakes.
it might carry into the beginning of the second year, but I think they will end up flooding their market fairly quickly...
#13
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Originally Posted by JJaber06
Nissan should have put the GTR under the Infiniti name in NA.
Acura - NSX
BMW - Alpina or M series
Mercedes - McClarren or AMG
Lexus - The new IS
Infiniti - ???
#14
Originally Posted by eclipse23
In that train of thought....
Acura - NSX
BMW - Alpina or M series
Mercedes - McClarren or AMG
Lexus - The new IS
Infiniti - ???
Acura - NSX
BMW - Alpina or M series
Mercedes - McClarren or AMG
Lexus - The new IS
Infiniti - ???
#16
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Originally Posted by Donte99TL
Guy has some good points, but that car is going to sell like hotcakes.
Nissan is only producing these in very limited numbers. Hell, I bet that Nissan barely makes a profit on these cars.
#17
Originally Posted by eclipse23
Infiniti has no 'racing' team or models.
The G35 pretty much made Infiniti in my book, I doubt it would've been as successful as it is today if it were under the Nissan name (in North America).
#19
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Originally Posted by JJaber06
The GTR could be the first....who knows...Just saying, for the price bracket this car is going in, you might as well put an upscale badge on it.
The G35 pretty much made Infiniti in my book, I doubt it would've been as successful as it is today if it were under the Nissan name (in North America).
The G35 pretty much made Infiniti in my book, I doubt it would've been as successful as it is today if it were under the Nissan name (in North America).
#21
Originally Posted by rondog
please, all Nissan needs is a few vids and articles of how the GTR is destroying records at race tracks, not to mention the performance #'s its putting up. There will be enthusiasts who will buy it, and point to it when they mention Nissan.
#22
Senior Moderator
Originally Posted by MTwEeZi
The mk4 Supra didn't lose any buyers because it was a Toyota.
age:16
Uh the Supra did poorly in sales. Most likely thanks to being an expensive Toyota.
Last edited by Crazy Bimmer; 03-10-2008 at 10:24 PM.
#23
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Interesting article, some good points.....and some cleverly argued conjecture as well. Take it at face value.
I think he probably underestimates the potential buyer pool a bit, but he was making a point.
One thing he missed entirely is how hard the car will be to modify; that will take a bunch of potential buyers out of the mix who might ironically end up buying 350Zs and turbo kits instead.
I don't think it will flop...initially....but they better be ready to freshen it up after a few short years....or production numbers might very well end up doing the "NSX" slide.
-Mirror
I think he probably underestimates the potential buyer pool a bit, but he was making a point.
One thing he missed entirely is how hard the car will be to modify; that will take a bunch of potential buyers out of the mix who might ironically end up buying 350Zs and turbo kits instead.
I don't think it will flop...initially....but they better be ready to freshen it up after a few short years....or production numbers might very well end up doing the "NSX" slide.
-Mirror
#24
Fahrvergnügen'd
Originally Posted by Walmart Gangsta
nissan had a whole staff dedicated to customer demographics...test groups...advertising..etc..
im sure they know how the release will affect the company
im sure they know how the release will affect the company
#25
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this review is coming from someone who owns Phateons...talk about bad..yet he has two
GTR has a following....ppl who wanted a GTR 10 yrs ago when playing granturismo playstation are now older with a career...nissan only plans on sending 1500 units a yr to the U.S....they should have no problem selling them here
GTR has a following....ppl who wanted a GTR 10 yrs ago when playing granturismo playstation are now older with a career...nissan only plans on sending 1500 units a yr to the U.S....they should have no problem selling them here
#26
Originally Posted by savage
remember the Aztec?
The guy has valid points but we can never be sure. One thing we are missing here: this is the internet age. People know damn well how a GTR does, at least we do. More people now than in 1990 when the NSX came out, or even before it, I bet. As of right now the GTR isn't even on dealership lots and a good number of us knows what it can do or has seen it already.
I still can't get over how the front looks but every time I see a video of it, it makes me want it even more. I've almost grown immune to the fact that it doesn't have a clutch pedal and that you can't row the gears...
The guy makes too many assumptions though... I certainly haven't lost respect or desire for the 350Z at all because of the GTR. I haven't lost respect for Mustangs because of the Ford GT, and obviously haven't lost respect for Camaros because of the Z06 or ZR1. He did get one thing right though, it sure as hell made me want a Chevy "Spec V".
And wow, the guy has two Phaetons.
#27
Punk Rocker
I don't care how good or bad the GT-R is for Nissan. Fact is it is an awesome machine and I say bravo to them for having the balls to even build it and then to sell it here in America.
#28
Suzuka Master
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After reading his reasons for why this would be a mistake for Nissan, this is what I get:
1) No customer base (only following is fat 27 year olds living with parents)
2) Having to go to Nissan dealer
3) Will not have halo effect
So this guy is pretty much saying "don't venture into new territory because you will fail." And then gives a bunch of assumptions as reasons.
Sounds very defeatist to me. I'm surprised he didn't criticize Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti for bringing premium brands to an "established" luxury market where no one would take them seriously because most of the same reasons apply. I also find funny how he considers corvette a "brand". Last time I looked, it was a model under the Chevrolet brand. I see brand new vettes being sold alongside cobalts all the time. As for the NSX, it did its job as a halo for Acura. Too bad Acura let it sit on the market for so long with no significant updates, and they didn't capitalize on the "halo" in their other models as much as they could have either.
Overall, he does a reasonable job explaining reasons for his opinions, but all of them are based on assumptions without much explanation (ie facts or stats) behind the assumptions. You can find any argument for or against something based on assumptions and try to pass off the assumptions as fact. But in the end it all depends on how correct the assumptions are, and this guys assumption are on the more extreme (almost stereotypical) end.
1) No customer base (only following is fat 27 year olds living with parents)
2) Having to go to Nissan dealer
3) Will not have halo effect
So this guy is pretty much saying "don't venture into new territory because you will fail." And then gives a bunch of assumptions as reasons.
Sounds very defeatist to me. I'm surprised he didn't criticize Acura, Lexus, and Infiniti for bringing premium brands to an "established" luxury market where no one would take them seriously because most of the same reasons apply. I also find funny how he considers corvette a "brand". Last time I looked, it was a model under the Chevrolet brand. I see brand new vettes being sold alongside cobalts all the time. As for the NSX, it did its job as a halo for Acura. Too bad Acura let it sit on the market for so long with no significant updates, and they didn't capitalize on the "halo" in their other models as much as they could have either.
Overall, he does a reasonable job explaining reasons for his opinions, but all of them are based on assumptions without much explanation (ie facts or stats) behind the assumptions. You can find any argument for or against something based on assumptions and try to pass off the assumptions as fact. But in the end it all depends on how correct the assumptions are, and this guys assumption are on the more extreme (almost stereotypical) end.
#31
99 TL, 06 E350
Originally Posted by rondog
please, all Nissan needs is a few vids and articles of how the GTR is destroying records at race tracks, not to mention the performance #'s its putting up. There will be enthusiasts who will buy it, and point to it when they mention Nissan.
Agreed. After reading this article, it seems to be a cry baby saying that everything is unfair now that a car that can be affordable to the masses can beat cars that only a few can afford.
#32
Suzuka Master
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I think the guy brings up valid points.
My opinion is that the GTR is one of the most over-rated cars to come out in a long time. Nissan has hyped the car up and the Grand Turismo crowd has taken it in. Every fan boy points to the 7:38 Nurburgring time and says wow. Nissan ran the lap from a rolling start and didn’t finish at the same point where the video started. You can clearly see this in the video that is posted on YouTube. On the other hand, the fan boys say that the GTR is a better deal than say a Z06. This isn’t true at all. The Z06 is clearly faster due to Chevy keeping the weight in check. Lastly, when the Jan Magnusson Z06 ran at the Ring’ he started from a dead stop. What I am trying to get at is that Nissan’s marketing is trying to pull a fast one. They pulled a few tricks to try to beat the competitions times. When a production GTR is tested in the US running the “Lightning Lap” or some other credible test, the GTR will get some respect from me. Other than that, right now the car is all hype.
My opinion is that the GTR is one of the most over-rated cars to come out in a long time. Nissan has hyped the car up and the Grand Turismo crowd has taken it in. Every fan boy points to the 7:38 Nurburgring time and says wow. Nissan ran the lap from a rolling start and didn’t finish at the same point where the video started. You can clearly see this in the video that is posted on YouTube. On the other hand, the fan boys say that the GTR is a better deal than say a Z06. This isn’t true at all. The Z06 is clearly faster due to Chevy keeping the weight in check. Lastly, when the Jan Magnusson Z06 ran at the Ring’ he started from a dead stop. What I am trying to get at is that Nissan’s marketing is trying to pull a fast one. They pulled a few tricks to try to beat the competitions times. When a production GTR is tested in the US running the “Lightning Lap” or some other credible test, the GTR will get some respect from me. Other than that, right now the car is all hype.
#34
Three Wheelin'
iTrader: (1)
Guy has some valid points, but I think the targeted audience is more than what he mentioned...
Yes, most people will likely buy a Porsche with that money, but I think there was an aritcle where someone mentioned that their target audience is not someone who's deciding between a Porsche and the GT-R, but rather an enthusiast who already has a Porsche, and can afford anothering $80k car.
Plus, there's also the small demographics in the U.S. who actually grew up dreaming about the R32 GT-R (and even R33) before Gran Turismo times. Not to mention there's still the piece of land outside the U.S. known as the rest of the world (who doesn't dream about Corvettes) that the author of the above article hasn't considered. GT-R has its own heritage well known to many other parts of the world, even before the R32.
Yes, most people will likely buy a Porsche with that money, but I think there was an aritcle where someone mentioned that their target audience is not someone who's deciding between a Porsche and the GT-R, but rather an enthusiast who already has a Porsche, and can afford anothering $80k car.
Plus, there's also the small demographics in the U.S. who actually grew up dreaming about the R32 GT-R (and even R33) before Gran Turismo times. Not to mention there's still the piece of land outside the U.S. known as the rest of the world (who doesn't dream about Corvettes) that the author of the above article hasn't considered. GT-R has its own heritage well known to many other parts of the world, even before the R32.
Last edited by supraken; 03-11-2008 at 10:06 AM.
#35
The sizzle in the Steak
Should have been an Infiniti.
#36
The Third Ball
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No one knows what is going to happen with the GTR.
I did an infiniti commercial at the end of 2006 and one of the clients was on of the 4 guys on the american side of the GTR project. I started talking to him and he was against the car coming here as a Nissan, he said it should have been an infiniti.
I debated with him about it, but in the end he wasnt changing his mind. He made a lot of the same point as this Jack dude.
I did an infiniti commercial at the end of 2006 and one of the clients was on of the 4 guys on the american side of the GTR project. I started talking to him and he was against the car coming here as a Nissan, he said it should have been an infiniti.
I debated with him about it, but in the end he wasnt changing his mind. He made a lot of the same point as this Jack dude.
#37
Senior Moderator
A dealer by me was going to mark them up by 25k. Guess what happened when they told people who had been on the waiting list about it. Yeah. They said . They are now going to be marked up by 8k.
#38
Suzuka Master
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Originally Posted by srika
A dealer by me was going to mark them up by 25k. Guess what happened when they told people who had been on the waiting list about it. Yeah. They said . They are now going to be marked up by 8k.
#39
Burning Brakes
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Originally Posted by I Go To Costco
I certainly haven't lost respect or desire for the 350Z at all because of the GTR.
The 350z does a good job for a 30k car and the GT-R does a good job for a 70k car..
With that said, I do have to admit that he makes some good points. We'll just have to see..
#40
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by srika
A dealer by me was going to mark them up by 25k. Guess what happened when they told people who had been on the waiting list about it. Yeah. They said . They are now going to be marked up by 8k.