You're nuts.

 

Of course he is - and has no clue what he is talking about.

 

this proves to me that there is an alternate reality where everything is opposite

 

Agreed, because what I was saying is that the rules packages for those series are such that the inferior racing platform, FWD, is made competitive in the series.

 

I respect you're right to have an opinion But no I'm not, and if you want to validate your opinion, then come up with some facts. This poll shows a clear preference for the I6, but the engineers at Honda and Nissan know a bit more and have proven that the V6 is superior.

Nissan's RB26DETT is the ultimate I6 yet for the latest, modern GT-R, Nissan developed the VR38DETT because the V6 allows for a better overall car. Acura's NSX is another example and two super cars with V6's cannot be argued with.

For these modern times, the step up from an I4/V6 with FWD is a V6/V8 with a performance enhancing AWD like Acura's or Nissan's.

BMW's AWD(=FAILED) is inferior and that's why their RWD is their best... but their best is not up to par. First, their engineers need to beg for apprenticeships at Honda/Nissan and then they can start building good components like fuel pumps that don't fail . Once the basics have been mastered, then maybe, just maybe, they can develop a good AWD and finally get away from the archaic RWD.

 

Agreed, rules packages that are the closest aproximation to real production sedans allow FWD to win big. Hmmm...

But bimmer fans rejoice! Next year, the 330i will be a baseline for the SPEED Touring Car Championship:
http://www.world-challenge.com/news/story.php?ID=1146

With greater restrictions on HP and chassis tuning, we actually might see a competitive bimmer... only because the other cars have been brought down to their level.

 

I guess it's safe to say that you've never heard of the phrase "quit while you're ahead."

The RB was an old, old design. Iron block, inline cylinder layout resulted in a tall engine that was limited in use and most likely Nissan abandoned the inline-6 because it would have been that much more difficult to put it in everything they wanted. Hell, look at the VQ now. Its in EVERYTHING in Nissan's lineup pretty much. I doubt it would have been as easy or as cost-effective had they gone with an inline-6. The RB was in how many cars? As far as I know only Skylines got them. Surely you don't think because the RB was only in 1 car at a certain time that its obsolete?

In a street car, FWD is a compromise, simple as that. It does have its benefits but it was mainly developed for economy cars. I can see why you vouch for a push towards AWD for BMW, obviously SH-AWD did the RL a whole world of good in terms of sales......

 

I'm not really here to win; I'm in my 40's and not my 20's so I'm just having fun

Yup, obsolete means "no longer in general use; fallen into disuse". All of BMW's 3/5 competitors use V6's and hence by definition, BMW is using an obsolete engine.

As far as the SH-AWD in the Acura RL, I think the RL has issues beyond the transmission. But, for the MDX, its amazing: had one follow behind me on a clover onramp yesterday at serious speed. I was just waiting for it to hit the concrete barrier but it just kept on turning

And that 4G TL SH-AWD with manual transmission test vs the 335i, S4, etc., yes, it wasn't a fair test of current production models, but it did show that it can transmit a heavier car with less horsepower faster around a track.

Yes agreed, FWD was developed for econoboxes just like AWD was developed for trucks. But FWD is now very competitive up to a certain power level, and beyond that, the GT-R and other modern AWD's are clearly showning the direction to higher performance.

RWD was good, but I had my share of spinouts (full 360 recovery on the highway wooo hooo!) and will be glad to see it go obsolete

 

The inline 6 is a tall, heavy motor, but can really be built out (read turbo) to have wicked performance numbers. And in AWD form, you can have quite the automobile (the best example of this was the R34 Skyline, which was AWD, and roughly 400HP).

Put simply, the V6 is a more efficient design, and offers a myriad of layouts: FWD, RWD, AWD, and either longitudnal or horizontally opposed. Automakers can wring out a fair amount of power, and use economies of scale to make a cheaper car.

I say it's just one philosophy vs. another. No winner or looser, just a difference.

 

BMW engineers must be doing something right if they can achieve all these awards for their engines. Plus if Mercedes are inquiring BMW engines for their OWN cars...

http://www.ukipme.com/engineoftheyear/previous04.html

http://wardsauto.com/reports/2007/tenbest/

Just curious, how much does the V6 weigh in the 08 TL-S?

 

Inline 6's can have dead spots in the power band (slant 6 for example) but due to way less vibration, they tend to last forever.....

 

FWD is also a more compact, lighter design and thus more fuel efficient

 

For your information, fuel pumps on the early 335i coupes were fixed the second year. Heck, my ex-e92 was one of the first ones delivered and I didn't have a problem with the fuel pump.

I think you're sorely mistaken or seriously believe in your own opinion if you think that BMW engineers need lessons from Honda or Nissan. The numbers speak for themselves. You say that the rear-wheel drive platform is not up to par, what are you comparing it too? An Enzo? I don't think I need to further argue, BMW has made it's reputation on the driving experience for which their engines and drivetrains combinations are largely responsable for. I'm beginning to sound like a fanboy simply trying to prove a fact.


If you knew how long, Acura enthusiasts have been waiting for a RWD platform...

 

You must not have been driving your car like "The Ultimate Driving Machine" If you had the auto tranny, I hope you went in to get the missing oil cooler.

Actually, the facts speak for themselves: only the twin turbos make their I6 somewhat competitive right now and they went to Mitsubishi for those. Guess Mitsubishi can teach wax on, wax off just as well as Honda/Nissan

Cars like the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Acura's TL SH-AWD, and of course the Nissan GT-R show that a good AWD is superior to RWD from 300HP on up to near the top... we'll see if the GT-R V-Spec beats the Vette.

To remain competitive, BMW needs to drop one of their V8's into the 3's (i.e. a 340i) and ditch the I6. But I don't know how well a V8 will sell to the mass market in these times. It would be better for them to borrow a modern V6 but ooohh the shame.

... for one reason only: FnF Tokyo Drift! Hey, I used to own a 240SX and that car was pure fun on wheels going sideways. But fun isn't really fast nor safe and RWD will eventually be relegated to drifting and for serious dragsters on the drag strip.

 

May i ask why you think the N54 wont stay competitive? Currently it does everything better than any V6 in their segment.

Its the fastest and has the most usable torque all while giving some of the best gas mileage in its segment. Thats what people want during these times. What V6 could they borrow to offer all that?

AWD is a nice option though and even I can admit BMWs current 3 series xdrive isnt that great. Although their system in the X6 is, which is basically a copy of SH-AWD. Then again why are we even talking about RWD vs AWD in this thread? Oh well, as long as FWD gets phased out in this segment im happy.

Once again, how much does the V6 weigh in the TL-S?

 

So am I..... if you couldn't tell from my avatar

But there's a point when people start thinking wtf?


I believe the current 3-series outsold the *brand new* Acura TL and several other competitors by almost 2 to 1 in the month of October. BMW must have one hell of a marketing team to be able to do that much with an obsolete drivetrain layout and engine design!

Luckily I live in a climate with no snow so for me I'll always choose RWD, then AWD, and FWD as an absolute last resort.

 

From the way I see it and have always understood, I6's have always been superior to a V6 in terms of engine smoothness. As for power, the I6 is limited and can only get so much power out of them, which is why BMW went Turbo, as did Toyota for the Supra. The Lexus IS and GS could only get so much power, and I don't know why Toyota didn't consider the Turbo and chose to replace it with a V6 for more power. V6's seem to be capable to handle more power. I on the other hand feel there's no replacement for an I6...

 

Does it really matter? Most manufacturers attain components from other companies, or even other manufacturers for that matter. Several manufacturers go to Mitsubishi for turbos, not just BMW. Also, BMW automatic transmissions are sourced right from GM. The oil pans are the same... they're literally rebadged for the most part. Yet I don't see people complaining about the quality or reliability of GM or BMW automatic transmissions. Why would you devote money to make your own *product* when *manufacturer* makes it better than everyone else and its much cheaper to go to them for what you're looking for?

Look at how Mitsubishi is doing in the market currently. The more important thing is the product as a whole, the parts that make it up and the way they're assembled are the things that matter, it doesn't actually matter who/where it comes from. BMW's twin-turbo I6 is great, there's literally no turbo lag noticeable.

Then on the other hand, look at Honda, who makes their own automatic transmissions. 2G TL/CL anyone? They also by far have some of the clunkiest transmissions, just the nature of the beast because of the way they're designed.

Very few people on this site, myself included even would take an Evo X over a 335i. AWD is superior in terms of maintaining traction, but its a lot more complicated.... higher parasitic drivetrain losses, a lot of added weight and complexity, and a bunch of other components that can leak or go bad.

So they need to ditch their "obsolete" inline-6 for a "modern" V6? Then what else? Add FWD?



I really don't know what to say about this. I guess all those people in the SCCA and other organized racing sanctions driving their Miatas and drivers in F1 and Le Mans like to go sideways.

 

If you knew how hard I drove my cars, you'd chuckle at your own statement. I had absolutely no problems with it during the time I owned it, so don't believe all of them did. Feel like talking about the auto trannies that Acura used to make? Have you looked at BMW M models recently? Very competitive engines, look at the 5L V10 in the M5/M6 or the new 4L V8 in the M3. Absolute beasts.

A V8 for the normal 3 series wouldn't sell well, it's a market looking for no more than six cylinders for the most part. I will admit that I love Nissan's revised 3.7 VQ engine as much as BMW's I6TT. Like someone said, different companies following different philosophies, no point in trying to argue that BMW I6 engines aren't great, you're simply waisting your time. As for RWD, not all are equal. Believe it or not, if we don't consider value, a "simple" 328i is more fun to drive than Acura TL, period imo. And you don't have to be driving at triple digits speed. Shifting your own gears and feeling the chassis work together is simply an undescribable feeling. No need to pull a F&F to enjoy a car.

To each his own.

 

Obviously, they've been wrong the whole time.

 

He's just going to attribute it to their MBA's and ignorant consumers. The guy is looking to stir up trouble, I'm surprised you guys are still feeding him. The "so passive aggressive he could be my mother in law" comments about the fuel pump and oil cooler are proof enough. "Oh, if they haven't failed yet it's because you're not driving it hard enough". Heh.

 

A few days ago, I was actually driving my old 2000 E46 328i that I sold to my buddy a few years ago and I couldn't believe how smooth the engine felt after 160k kms on it. The car was completely silent and the gears shifted unbelievably well, still felt sound and almost as new as the day I bought it. I had a moment of nostalgia.

 

gotta go w/the I6

 

"Just curious, how much does the V6 weigh in the 08 TL-S?"

"May i ask why you think the N54 wont stay competitive?
Currently it does everything better than any V6 in their segment."

I don't know the weight of the J35 in the TL-S but, as was mentioned by several folks previously, the weight of the engine is important but less so than the packaging. The BMW I6 won the engine award as applied in their Z4, where it can work due to that chassis. But in general, the longitudinally mounted I6 limits the overall design of the car compared to the V6. Car engines matter little without the car.

This is most apparent in the most important market segment: sedans and mid-sized in particular. This is the money maker segment and its here where the competition is fierce and engineering mettle is truly tested.

BMW's N54 in their 3's allowed them to be on par with the current competition but they have already gone turbo. The engineering goal is to make the best NA engine powered car possible and when that limit is hit you go Forced Induction. BMW's competitors have or will soon have higher performance cars with V6's yet to go FI.

Basically, BMW has already blown their wad to keep up and there's nothing left in their I6 that they can competitively do.

 

Hey, I would go 335i over the Evo as well, but that's more to do with the fact that the Evo is really just a go fast econobox.

Torque vectoring AWD is the next technological advance that should go mainstream just like ABS and stability control. People poo-poo'ed those as well.

BMW's in a corner with their I6: its their signature engine yet it is holding them back. Its why they switched to the 4L V8 for the M3.

 

Wow you really dance around the questions without answering it, dont you.

The N54 does everything better than anything in its segment and yet you still call it "on par" without stating any reasons.

BMW went with turbos not only because the I6 reached its limit, but it also allowed them to get better fuel economy. Same reason they doing it to their V8 setups which we know hasnt gotten to their NA limits. FI setups are the way of the future.

Not even sure why you brought up design. Yes so they designed the Z4 around its longitudinally I6. Whats the problem? It has almost the perfect weight distribution just like all the other BMWs.

Next you will go on saying how the V8 in the M3 is primitive.

Anyways, im done with this topic as its been beaten to a bloody pulp.

 

OK, so Fishy hates BMWs for some reason. That's all I've learned in the past page of posts.

 

Someone better forward this to HMC so that they know the S2000 is a complete failure and that their engineers are incompetent.

I dont think i mind BMW's incompetent engineers and their obsolete engines. When they can produce an engine such as the S54 (M3) which i believe is now discontinued and it still outperforms the majority of the mass produced V6's and usually always at a smaller displacement, i have really no issue with that.

The N54 is going to be around for a long time and will be able to produce well over 400HP in no time at all but you wont see that happen soon due to marketing as they cant have it outperforming the current S65 (M3).

When it comes to Chassis and FWD vs RWD you seem to be using the SCCA as the model and how the TSX and mazda's are dominating. "The Mirror" has explained it very well why this is......When FWD came into play the rules where changed to make them more competitive and this goes for all types of racing, wtcc, alms, etc etc. It keeps the racing world competitive. The rule changes next year to the scca are to make the cars closer to production as they have been getting out of control and guys where taking the chassis way to far from production standards.

I noticed you compared the WTCC and how BMW after reigning for years lost top spot to the SEAT but failed to mention rule changes where made for SEAT to have less weight and still use a diesel engine (apparently which BMW is now currently designing just for this series). I also found it funny how you left out that the WTCC and the SCCA are comparable races but the Honda Euro Accord R (aka...TSX) finished dead last with an embarrassing 55 points. This shows how racing and rule changes have huge effects and its not necessarily the chassis etc.....or if it is then by your standards the TSX + Engineering + FWD + Chassis =FAILED.

 

From seeing one in person, I don't think the S2000 is a " sports sedans"

But that's okay. Internet forum discussions always end in a chaotic mess because things are misread or taken in the wrong context. But that is why they are charmingly entertaining, and I did get a new sig from picus, thanks

All I can say is we'll see what happens in the upcoming year(s) with how the BMW 3 series holds up to TL/IS/G/Genesis/ etc. I'm sure to necro this thread back up.

 

It's true. At least I don't have to deal with you at Christmas, though.

RE: Forced induction; given the options BMW had when deciding which engine to use in the 2007+ 3 series I don't think it makes much sense to assume they went FI just to stay competitive.

From a cost perspective it isn't like they saved money going with forced induction. The N54 isn't the same old aluminum/magnesium block from the 330i; I doubt it would have cost more to develop a V6, so why not just do that? As cp3117 mentioned if they wanted to stay naturally aspirated they could have just used the S54; but they didn't. They had other options that would have kept the 3 competitive and would have been less expensive. My understanding is they went FI to keep the inline 6 configuration, keep it relatively light, and most importantly to keep it efficient.

It makes even more sense when you consider that they are using turbo's in V8's now. It isn't like the V8's cant make more power than they are currently and remain naturally aspirated, so why bother with the turbo's?

 

Shoot, okay let's continue . The S54 won multiple engine awards but those awards were given by journalists... who cannot bite the hand that feeds them. Look at the Ward's awards and you'll see them given to pretty much every manufacturer. Its like children's games: nobody loses and nobody really wins.

In reality, when the S54 was winning those awards, it was also blowing up on their owners and earning the nickname "Engine of Damocles". It took BMW (hmmm Blown Motor Works? ) several years to fix that problem, but it seems clear that they were bumping into the wall and soon would smack right into it.

There is a limit to NA performance, especially if you raise RPMs. At some point, it is easier to go FI or more cylinders and that's what BMW did: the 3's got twin-turbo's and the M3's got the V8.

But as everyone seems to agree, a V8 in a mass market car its nuts for these times so the 3's will stay 6cyl... yet how far can BMW OEM boost the turbo's from their current 330HP without leading to mass failures that are embarassing and need to be fixed under warranty? Tuner mods are fine since that limits potential issues to a small % of owners who would go seek them out.

I'm figuring that at some point in the near future, one of BMW's competitors is gonna go nuclear and put a SC or mild turbo on a V6 for 350-400HP, i.e. a massively detuned Nissan GT-R. And then put that nice compact V6 into a killer sedan chassis... perhaps with AWD . Bye bye I6 and baby bimmer.

 

driving a rwd car is way more fun, plus burnouts should be done with the rear tires not the front. thats my position on this. the whole i6 vs v6 thing, well the two most iconic(imo) jdm engines were inline 6s. the 2jz and the rb engine. infact those things are still dropped into new cars nowadays

 

The international engine of the year awards is 65 journalists from 32 countries. I doubt they are all being paid off by BMW, VW, Toyota etc as you are kind of insinuating.....but everyone has their own opinion and i will respect yours.

The S54 problem wasnt BMW running into a wall (although i do understand the issue of future higher displacement and higher RPM problems that can occur). It was their supplier trying to cut corners and not telling BMW that they werent making the connecting rod caps up to the specs that BMW specified.....much like the problems Honda had with their tranny's a few years ago and their supplier problem.

As far as the future competition goes we may not have to wait to long to see what happens. The new S4 is out next year with a SC 3.0l that produces 333Hp with a 7sp DSG and AWD with torque vectoring......so we will see soon.

I do agree with you though that i really like AWD and hope other manufacturers start to put more R&D into this for performance....I would love to see Acura and Audi go to war on this as the developments and advancements would probably be incredible

 

I like how dramatic you are.

Actually it didnt take long for BMW to fix the rod problem, it took less than a year. They stepped up and recalled them quickly and offered an extended warranty.

If tuner mods have any indication how much power can be produced from the N54 safely, then BMW has plenty of room to play with.

Feel free to continue to predict BMWs downfall.

 

Fishy, is this you??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcrjRXnmRx8

 

LOL! Nope. I have no affiliation with any automobile manufacturer other than thru my brother who is in regional management for Porsche somewhere on the other side of the planet from me. And the 08 TL-S is my first Acura/Honda product.

Carrying on, the use of the iron block in the S54 shows that the aluminum block in the N54 is limited in strength and size. It's taking up too much space in the 3's that could be used for cabin space. BMW's competitors will offer faster cars with more space in the "mid"-size sedan category and it looks like Audi will be the first ones to kick BMW right where it hurts so BMW must replace the I6 with a V6 if they want to survive in this critical money making category.

Yet, if they drop their signature I6 from their iconic car, then a good part of what BMW is, will be lost. The 1 series might take the I6 torch in coupe form, but the 1's are really the Chevy Cobalt SS'es of BMW. Such would be a sad ending.

Anyhoo... just calling it like I see it

 

You do know that 17 years ago BMW was producing a N/A I6 which made 340 hp, right? You think that 17 years later they actually bacame dumber?

 

 

Doesn't the 3 sedan have some of the best interior room in its class. Trunk space too, iirc? That, and it's shorter than most of its competitors?

 

Depends on what you think is in its "class", which may be different from its actual competitors.

I think a reasonable cross-shopping list would be:
Acura TL, Audi A4, Cadillac CTS, Infiniti G37, Lexus GS/IS, MB C class, Volvo S60.

In that class, I think the 3's are with the IS and C on the smallish side.