To the Ford engineers..........
10-23-2010, 06:58 PM
#1
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
To the Ford engineers..........
.........who designed the E350 van.
What the hell was the matter with you? Did you have some sort of masochistic desire to make things as difficult as you could for anyone servicing one? Did you? Or did you not care when it left the design studio. Let the boys in production figure it out. It should not take an entire day to replace a valve cover gasket. No, it should not. You shouldn't have to remove the wiring harness. Or the emission control system (that in itself an abomination I'm sure you were responsible for as well). The air box system should not have to be removed. Nor should the intake for that matter. The air conditioning compressor? The power steering pump? Why not. Gives someone a little more time to get acquainted with the van. I thought having to remove an install mount from the engine block was an especially nice touch.
I feel better now.
What the hell was the matter with you? Did you have some sort of masochistic desire to make things as difficult as you could for anyone servicing one? Did you? Or did you not care when it left the design studio. Let the boys in production figure it out. It should not take an entire day to replace a valve cover gasket. No, it should not. You shouldn't have to remove the wiring harness. Or the emission control system (that in itself an abomination I'm sure you were responsible for as well). The air box system should not have to be removed. Nor should the intake for that matter. The air conditioning compressor? The power steering pump? Why not. Gives someone a little more time to get acquainted with the van. I thought having to remove an install mount from the engine block was an especially nice touch.
I feel better now.
10-23-2010, 08:03 PM
#3
אני עומד עם ישראל
Engineers aren't mechanics or else cars would be a hell of a lot easier to work on.
10-23-2010, 08:11 PM
#4
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
The trouble with vans is it's hard to access the engine compartment. The hood is basically only to check fluids, and you need to pull the doghouse inside the passenger compartment to work on the engine. Then of course everything is packaged so tightly together because of space limitations. If it's a pickup with the same engine it's much easier. Nonetheless I found it very frustrating. A little rant always makes one feel better however.
10-23-2010, 08:14 PM
#5
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Terry, you make a valid point. There was a time when engineers did not work with the designers so the vehicle could be worked on. I hated having to remove wheels to get at spark plugs, and similar BS.
You, however, take automotive restoration / repair to another level. Flame on and don't let the bastards win.
You, however, take automotive restoration / repair to another level. Flame on and don't let the bastards win.
10-23-2010, 08:14 PM
#6
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
10-23-2010, 08:17 PM
#7
Evil Mazda Driver
I think the worst design ever has to be the old Dodge Intrepid where the right front wheel and wheel liner had to be removed just to change the battery. Now that was STUPID!
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10-23-2010, 08:29 PM
#8
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
Terry, you make a valid point. There was a time when engineers did not work with the designers so the vehicle could be worked on. I hated having to remove wheels to get at spark plugs, and similar BS.
You, however, take automotive restoration / repair to another level. Flame on and don't let the bastards win.
You, however, take automotive restoration / repair to another level. Flame on and don't let the bastards win.
Thanks mm. The real annoyance was that the cover wasn't really leaking, only sweating a little. I though a couple hours, no big deal.............
the world is gonna enddd!!!!
10-23-2010, 09:58 PM
#10
Senior Moderator
^^^^^^
Indeed, it must be -1 C in hell right now.
...though poor design deserves to be excoriated.
Indeed, it must be -1 C in hell right now.
...though poor design deserves to be excoriated.
10-23-2010, 10:09 PM
#11
Your Friendly Canadian
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If Terry started a thread posting a rant, it really must be bad.
That being said, I doubt it's gonna get easier. It looks like the shade-tree mechanic is being killed by modern electrics, even tighter engine bays and more and more maintenance that requires more than just the basic tools.
That being said, I doubt it's gonna get easier. It looks like the shade-tree mechanic is being killed by modern electrics, even tighter engine bays and more and more maintenance that requires more than just the basic tools.
10-24-2010, 01:16 AM
#12
Senior Moderator
If Terry rants, it must be bad
Though i can attest to the Lexus LS400 starters being the single worst component i have ever changed. It sits in the V of the motor and the intake manifold has to come off to do it. Removing the IM is a 4-5 hr job.
Though i can attest to the Lexus LS400 starters being the single worst component i have ever changed. It sits in the V of the motor and the intake manifold has to come off to do it. Removing the IM is a 4-5 hr job.
10-24-2010, 01:38 AM
#13
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
OK..............didn't mean to rant. But boy, did it ever annoy me. Tomorrow I'll button it up and it'll be as good as new.
Tomorrow I'll button it up and it'll be as good as new.
10-24-2010, 02:11 AM
#14
S E L L
Kind of off topic but it still involves a Ford. 
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
10-24-2010, 02:44 AM
#15
Evil Mazda Driver
In my experience, Fords are a total bitch to work on. They look easy when you first get started but the more you get into it, the harder it becomes and this is true even with supposedly simple things.
I changed out the turn signal bulbs on a friend's 2004 Explorer and that was simple enough; one screw holds the light unit in and it just pops free. Easy, right? Wrong!! When the screw falls under the headlight and the only way to get it back is to release a set of retainer brackets designed in the Dark Ages, you begin to lose patience rather quickly. Needless to say I was much more careful with the screw the second time around.
I changed out the turn signal bulbs on a friend's 2004 Explorer and that was simple enough; one screw holds the light unit in and it just pops free. Easy, right? Wrong!! When the screw falls under the headlight and the only way to get it back is to release a set of retainer brackets designed in the Dark Ages, you begin to lose patience rather quickly. Needless to say I was much more careful with the screw the second time around.
10-24-2010, 03:28 AM
#16
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
Kind of off topic but it still involves a Ford.
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
Poor bastard.
You most likely need to remove the two 8mm bolts holding the fuel rail on the driver's side to access #6 plug. #5 plug will probably only be accessed by removing the three 8mm bolts that hold the power steering reservoir in place. #4 (against the firewall passenger side) also requires that the connection terminal cover be removed. You'll probably find it easier to remove the entire assembly itself. This is relatively easy to do as it's only held by two 8mm bolts. Remember to remove the three 13mm nuts holding the cables within the connection terminal.
Early 5.4 heads have a major design flaw, that being that the plug is only held within the cylinder head by about four threads. Be very careful not to strip anything, and torque the new plugs no more than 14 ft/lbs. If you strip the threads, the cylinder head will need to be removed. I removed the heads from my Lightning once, and it was NOT an enjoyable experience.
I'm sure you realize that all the plugs are underneath the coils, and not readily visible. Be very careful removing the coils, and be especially aware not to pull too hard on the cables. Use a thin wall 5/8ths spark plug socket to remove and install the plugs. Due to the location of each plug, blow out each hole with compressed air before removing the plug.
Good luck!
10-24-2010, 03:37 AM
#17
^that's worse than my car 
10-24-2010, 05:53 AM
#18
Someday, an RS6 Avant+
Kind of off topic but it still involves a Ford.
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
I've been meaning to change the plugs on my Dad's 98 F-150. It's the 5.4 so it's got the coil on plug system. Do you have to remove the fuel rails to get the coils off and plugs out? It seems like a pain in the ass to do these. Just looking for any tips since you've most likely done these before. I also have to do the valve cover gaskets so any info for those would also be helpful.
You are screwed if you make a mistake. Just follow his directions.
10-24-2010, 07:57 AM
#19
tbh tho.. i think all car manus got one of these brain farts on at least one of their models... i remember having to change a valve cover gasket on my uncles 94 camry V6... the front was pie, but the rear was also under the IM/TB assembly with just a cluster f' to get through... i mean even changing the spark plugs on that car was a chore...
so far i haven't had this run in with an Acura engine yet...
so i hope all engineers just remember KISS (keep is simple stupid!!!)...
so far i haven't had this run in with an Acura engine yet...
so i hope all engineers just remember KISS (keep is simple stupid!!!)...
10-24-2010, 02:26 PM
#20
Advanced
Damn, that pisses me off to no end as well. While I thought working on my Legend was annoying, hearing things like this make me feel better about my engine's layout. So how long did it take to complete the repair?
10-24-2010, 03:01 PM
#21
Your Friendly Canadian
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At least it's not as bad as having to cant the engine forward to reach the rear plugs on some old GM (3800s I think).
10-24-2010, 09:46 PM
#22
Senior Moderator
Poor bastard.
You most likely need to remove the two 8mm bolts holding the fuel rail on the driver's side to access #6 plug. #5 plug will probably only be accessed by removing the three 8mm bolts that hold the power steering reservoir in place. #4 (against the firewall passenger side) also requires that the connection terminal cover be removed. You'll probably find it easier to remove the entire assembly itself. This is relatively easy to do as it's only held by two 8mm bolts. Remember to remove the three 13mm nuts holding the cables within the connection terminal.
Early 5.4 heads have a major design flaw, that being that the plug is only held within the cylinder head by about four threads. Be very careful not to strip anything, and torque the new plugs no more than 14 ft/lbs. If you strip the threads, the cylinder head will need to be removed. I removed the heads from my Lightning once, and it was NOT an enjoyable experience.
I'm sure you realize that all the plugs are underneath the coils, and not readily visible. Be very careful removing the coils, and be especially aware not to pull too hard on the cables. Use a thin wall 5/8ths spark plug socket to remove and install the plugs. Due to the location of each plug, blow out each hole with compressed air before removing the plug.
Good luck!
You most likely need to remove the two 8mm bolts holding the fuel rail on the driver's side to access #6 plug. #5 plug will probably only be accessed by removing the three 8mm bolts that hold the power steering reservoir in place. #4 (against the firewall passenger side) also requires that the connection terminal cover be removed. You'll probably find it easier to remove the entire assembly itself. This is relatively easy to do as it's only held by two 8mm bolts. Remember to remove the three 13mm nuts holding the cables within the connection terminal.
Early 5.4 heads have a major design flaw, that being that the plug is only held within the cylinder head by about four threads. Be very careful not to strip anything, and torque the new plugs no more than 14 ft/lbs. If you strip the threads, the cylinder head will need to be removed. I removed the heads from my Lightning once, and it was NOT an enjoyable experience.
I'm sure you realize that all the plugs are underneath the coils, and not readily visible. Be very careful removing the coils, and be especially aware not to pull too hard on the cables. Use a thin wall 5/8ths spark plug socket to remove and install the plugs. Due to the location of each plug, blow out each hole with compressed air before removing the plug.
Good luck!
10-24-2010, 11:36 PM
#23
S E L L
Poor bastard.
You most likely need to remove the two 8mm bolts holding the fuel rail on the driver's side to access #6 plug. #5 plug will probably only be accessed by removing the three 8mm bolts that hold the power steering reservoir in place. #4 (against the firewall passenger side) also requires that the connection terminal cover be removed. You'll probably find it easier to remove the entire assembly itself. This is relatively easy to do as it's only held by two 8mm bolts. Remember to remove the three 13mm nuts holding the cables within the connection terminal.
Early 5.4 heads have a major design flaw, that being that the plug is only held within the cylinder head by about four threads. Be very careful not to strip anything, and torque the new plugs no more than 14 ft/lbs. If you strip the threads, the cylinder head will need to be removed. I removed the heads from my Lightning once, and it was NOT an enjoyable experience.
I'm sure you realize that all the plugs are underneath the coils, and not readily visible. Be very careful removing the coils, and be especially aware not to pull too hard on the cables. Use a thin wall 5/8ths spark plug socket to remove and install the plugs. Due to the location of each plug, blow out each hole with compressed air before removing the plug.
Good luck!
You most likely need to remove the two 8mm bolts holding the fuel rail on the driver's side to access #6 plug. #5 plug will probably only be accessed by removing the three 8mm bolts that hold the power steering reservoir in place. #4 (against the firewall passenger side) also requires that the connection terminal cover be removed. You'll probably find it easier to remove the entire assembly itself. This is relatively easy to do as it's only held by two 8mm bolts. Remember to remove the three 13mm nuts holding the cables within the connection terminal.
Early 5.4 heads have a major design flaw, that being that the plug is only held within the cylinder head by about four threads. Be very careful not to strip anything, and torque the new plugs no more than 14 ft/lbs. If you strip the threads, the cylinder head will need to be removed. I removed the heads from my Lightning once, and it was NOT an enjoyable experience.
I'm sure you realize that all the plugs are underneath the coils, and not readily visible. Be very careful removing the coils, and be especially aware not to pull too hard on the cables. Use a thin wall 5/8ths spark plug socket to remove and install the plugs. Due to the location of each plug, blow out each hole with compressed air before removing the plug.
Good luck!
Time to go shopping for a thin-wall spark plug socket. Thanks for the info Terry!
10-24-2010, 11:37 PM
#24
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
I buttoned it up this morning. It took me a little longer than I had hoped as I had neglected to connect the oil pressure sending unit. Of course the air box needed to be removed once more to locate the wire. All told, about eight hours. That included a full tune up and replacing some of the emission components.
10-24-2010, 11:41 PM
#25
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
I had a couple plugs work themselves loose on my Lightning. These were factory installed. Luckily no damage resulted. The early 5.4 head really left a lot to be desired.
10-27-2010, 06:44 AM
#26
AZ Community Team
I feel your pain, I replaced the plugs on my in-laws Cadillac with a transverse mounted Northstar. The front four plugs 1/2 hour, removing coils, remove and replace/torque new plugs. The back four took over a afternoon of removing the ECR valve and getting to it's corroded nuts and bolts on the rear exhaust header. And to get the right combination of extensions and U-joints to get to the plugs.
10-27-2010, 11:31 AM
#27
Same goes to the GM engineers then. The alternator bolts were easy to get to (aside from the one in the back which you can barely see) but the connector is located on top and my arm and hand just can't bend enough to reach the damn thing. I have to pull the plug upwards, but the connector is literally smack dab in the middle of the engine bay, and I can only get to it from the bottom.
and that reminds me, I can't wait to do the plugs on my car! I'm just glad I don't have an LT1.
and that reminds me, I can't wait to do the plugs on my car! I'm just glad I don't have an LT1.
10-27-2010, 11:49 AM
#28
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
I feel your pain, I replaced the plugs on my in-laws Cadillac with a transverse mounted Northstar. The front four plugs 1/2 hour, removing coils, remove and replace/torque new plugs. The back four took over a afternoon of removing the ECR valve and getting to it's corroded nuts and bolts on the rear exhaust header. And to get the right combination of extensions and U-joints to get to the plugs.
Frustrating isn't it?
I just noticed the van's intake has a slight weep from the intake. Not really a leak yet, but it could be. I've decided to remove the entire smog system and air plenum and replace the intake gasket. It will probably take an entire day to squeeze my hand into a two inch space and remove everything. Sigh...............
10-27-2010, 08:44 PM
#32
Moderator Alumnus
Thread Starter
10-28-2010, 07:08 AM
#33
AZ Community Team
). Amusing story to go with that sentiment.
I worked as electrical engineer designing avionics for military aircraft in the 80's. Another engineer, Rich was invited to go to a USAF base and spend a day with technicians. This was part of a program the DoD had to get the defense contractors more familiar with what it's like to operate and maintain their products. He got to spend the day with a F-15 technician. Their task that morning was to replace a hydraulic filter in the rear of the fighter. Rich looked at the shop manual for the aircraft and it showed pictures of the rear hydraulics, location, and access panels. Looking at the illustrations he figured maybe 15-20 minutes to remove and replace the filter. He removed the access panel and started to look around for the filter in mass of pipes and tubing. Not only could he not see it, he couldn't even feel around for it.
The tech was amused to say the least. He told Rich to stick his right arm into the access hole, go to the left as far forward as he could reach and then Rich felt the filter barely. He had no idea how they could remove it. It took both of them all morning to remove the filter clean up the drained hydraulic fluid (it's very flammable) and reinstall and safety wire the new filter. The tech exlained this was one of the worst maintenance tasks on the Eagles hydraulics.
The tech didn't know why engineers at McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis had to locate the filter so far out of reach since it could have easily been positioned by the access opening. Rich came away with a new appreciation for the folks who have to keep these complication machines flight ready.
They should do the same with auto engineers
Last edited by Legend2TL; 10-28-2010 at 07:12 AM.
10-28-2010, 07:18 AM
#34
We're not (although we pretend to be on weekends ).
Amusing story to go with that sentiment.
I worked as electrical engineer designing avionics for military aircraft in the 80's. Another engineer, Rich was invited to go to a USAF base and spend a day with technicians. This was part of a program the DoD had to get the defense contractors more familiar with what it's like to operate and maintain their products. He got to spend the day with a F-15 technician. Their task that morning was to replace a hydraulic filter in the rear of the fighter. Rich looked at the shop manual for the aircraft and it showed pictures of the rear hydraulics, location, and access panels. Looking at the illustrations he figured maybe 15-20 minutes to remove and replace the filter. He removed the access panel and started to look around for the filter in mass of pipes and tubing. Not only could he not see it, he couldn't even feel around for it.
The tech was amused to say the least. He told Rich to stick his right arm into the access hole, go to the left as far forward as he could reach and then Rich felt the filter barely. He had no idea how they could remove it. It took both of them all morning to remove the filter clean up the drained hydraulic fluid (it's very flammable) and reinstall and safety wire the new filter. The tech exlained this was one of the worst maintenance tasks on the Eagles hydraulics.
The tech didn't know why engineers at McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis had to locate the filter so far out of reach since it could have easily been positioned by the access opening. Rich came away with a new appreciation for the folks who have to keep these complication machines flight ready.
They should do the same with auto engineers
). Amusing story to go with that sentiment.
I worked as electrical engineer designing avionics for military aircraft in the 80's. Another engineer, Rich was invited to go to a USAF base and spend a day with technicians. This was part of a program the DoD had to get the defense contractors more familiar with what it's like to operate and maintain their products. He got to spend the day with a F-15 technician. Their task that morning was to replace a hydraulic filter in the rear of the fighter. Rich looked at the shop manual for the aircraft and it showed pictures of the rear hydraulics, location, and access panels. Looking at the illustrations he figured maybe 15-20 minutes to remove and replace the filter. He removed the access panel and started to look around for the filter in mass of pipes and tubing. Not only could he not see it, he couldn't even feel around for it.
The tech was amused to say the least. He told Rich to stick his right arm into the access hole, go to the left as far forward as he could reach and then Rich felt the filter barely. He had no idea how they could remove it. It took both of them all morning to remove the filter clean up the drained hydraulic fluid (it's very flammable) and reinstall and safety wire the new filter. The tech exlained this was one of the worst maintenance tasks on the Eagles hydraulics.
The tech didn't know why engineers at McDonnell Douglas in St. Louis had to locate the filter so far out of reach since it could have easily been positioned by the access opening. Rich came away with a new appreciation for the folks who have to keep these complication machines flight ready.
They should do the same with auto engineers
I'm not knocking on engineers for lack of knowledge or anything. But what it seems to me is that they're out of touch with their own products. That, or they take sadistic pleasure in knowing that we squirm and exhaust our vocabulary of four-letter words while working on products that they engineered
10-29-2010, 08:39 PM
#40
S E L L
