End of lease: dirty dealer tricks
08-01-2016, 01:10 AM
#1
The Third Ball
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End of lease: dirty dealer tricks
So, this can boil down to "its your own fault for not reading the fine print"
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
08-01-2016, 02:04 AM
#2
So, this can boil down to "its your own fault for not reading the fine print"
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
08-01-2016, 02:17 AM
#3
Team Owner
Super greasy. I'd be looking into the details of this, if you're willing to ruffle some feathers... Er.... I mean... Crush fucking skulls. I could be completely wrong, but how do you have to pay for something after a deal has been completed? Sounds to me like the lease manager needs to pay for an expensive cocaine habit and is creating some interesting "fees".
08-01-2016, 07:00 AM
#4
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I would contact Kia corporate and report them for this behavior as well. That seems rather shady practice to be doing.
08-01-2016, 08:33 AM
#5
Currently Post-Acura
I haven't heard about same-dealer charging that, but I know that if I just turn in my Q50 at the end of my lease without leasing another Infiniti, there's a $400 charge but I'm pretty sure it isn't dealer-specific. My lease agreement has it outlined, maybe double check theirs that something similar isn't written in. But since the lease would be handled by Kia, it does seem like the dealer would just be trying to get extra cash for not getting the return business.
08-01-2016, 09:50 AM
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I haven't heard about same-dealer charging that, but I know that if I just turn in my Q50 at the end of my lease without leasing another Infiniti, there's a $400 charge but I'm pretty sure it isn't dealer-specific. My lease agreement has it outlined, maybe double check theirs that something similar isn't written in. But since the lease would be handled by Kia, it does seem like the dealer would just be trying to get extra cash for not getting the return business.
I'm trying to get a copy of the contract to look over it.
08-01-2016, 10:38 AM
#7
If it were me, I'd contact Kia and parent company Hyundai. I'd tell them I wasn't interested in another Kia, but was looking into a Hyundai or Genesis (sister brands). If this is their standard practice, I'd tell them that if I had to pay the $400 fee, I would be completely and forever turned off from buying a Hyundai, Kia, or Genesis product.
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08-01-2016, 11:42 AM
#8
Safety Car
This is called a "disposition fee" and is fairly common in leases. If it was in the contract as originally signed, it is perfectly legal. There may be allegations of deception but that will be unlikely to stand if it is an unmodified corporate lease and clearly written.
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
08-01-2016, 11:47 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Yes, this is normal. Unless you plan on leasing another car you will get hit with this fee. Even if they were to buy out the car there is a fee to buy out the car. They are lucky they didn't find any damage and get a crazy bill in the mail. I know when my sister decided not to lease another Benz, they ended up finding "un normal wear and tear" and send her a 3000 bill. I will never lease a car.
08-01-2016, 12:16 PM
#10
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This is called a "disposition fee" and is fairly common in leases. If it was in the contract as originally signed, it is perfectly legal. There may be allegations of deception but that will be unlikely to stand if it is an unmodified corporate lease and clearly written.
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
So, yup. Not shady at all. Feel free to lock this bad boy up.
08-01-2016, 12:18 PM
#11
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Yes, this is normal. Unless you plan on leasing another car you will get hit with this fee. Even if they were to buy out the car there is a fee to buy out the car. They are lucky they didn't find any damage and get a crazy bill in the mail. I know when my sister decided not to lease another Benz, they ended up finding "un normal wear and tear" and send her a 3000 bill. I will never lease a car.
08-01-2016, 02:22 PM
#12
Team Owner
So, this can boil down to "its your own fault for not reading the fine print"
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
But My in-laws most current lease, a kia optima, was done last May. They turned it in as they had down with previous leases, and you'd figure as long as everything with the car was fine, then boom, Bob's your uncle.
Turns out they just got a letter from the dealer stating as per their least contract because they chose NOT to lease another car through that same dealer they are required to pay a $400 fee. This isn't something that was told to them during the initial lease. And since this is something that is standard practice when leasing they didn't think to look for anything like this in the contract.
Is this even legal? Or is there any way to get around this?
Whether they have to pay or not...yelp, their Facebook page, BBB, etc etc etc...there will be an active smear campaign against Kia of Downtown Los Angeles.
BMW was the only manufacture that had this crap $595 and now every make is following the same $ grabbing technique.
Infinit has it now but when i leased my 03/05/06/08 G35/7, they did not.
MB has it
Audi has it
Even Toyota has it
Of course, BMW obviously has it.
So i am not surprised that Hyundai/Kia is following the same path and soon all manufacture will have it... Think Resort fee, check in bag fee and all the BS fees that started by 1 and now it is the norm.
From Toyota FS:
Disposition fee. A disposition fee will be applied at lease end (on lease contracts signed after January 3, 2011) to help cover the costs to dispose of or sell the vehicle.
The fee will be waived on the existing lease for qualifying customers who return to lease or finance their next eligible vehicle with TFS through the Toyota dealer.2
The fee will be waived on the existing lease for qualifying customers who return to lease or finance their next eligible vehicle with TFS through the Toyota dealer.2
Last edited by oonowindoo; 08-01-2016 at 02:32 PM.
08-01-2016, 02:27 PM
#13
Team Owner
Yes, this is normal. Unless you plan on leasing another car you will get hit with this fee. Even if they were to buy out the car there is a fee to buy out the car. They are lucky they didn't find any damage and get a crazy bill in the mail. I know when my sister decided not to lease another Benz, they ended up finding "un normal wear and tear" and send her a 3000 bill. I will never lease a car.
Many of the people who lease think "Oh it is not my car, so fuck it" and that is the problem.
Also, she should not be surprised about the bill since there should have been an inspection prior to maturity date where the inspector would go over the car and explain exactly what is being charge and why.
If she just returned the car without getting inspected, then she just let the dealer decide what "Excessive Wear and Tear" is without a chance to make the repairs herself for MUCH MUCH MUCH less $$.
Last edited by oonowindoo; 08-01-2016 at 02:30 PM.
08-01-2016, 03:45 PM
#14
This is called a "disposition fee" and is fairly common in leases. If it was in the contract as originally signed, it is perfectly legal. There may be allegations of deception but that will be unlikely to stand if it is an unmodified corporate lease and clearly written.
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
The fee is usually from the manufacturer or leasing company, and not the individual dealership.
As you found, they will usually waive these fees if you stick with the same brand as a "loyalty bonus."
Turns out, as I learned, there was an insurance policy that would issue a check on the car back to BMW Financial when it was turned back in during those 90 days. So, the dealership decided it didn't want the car sitting on their lot for 3 months until then, so they made us hold onto it; they quite literally refused to take the keys when offered. The only thing we got in exchange after this mess was BMW waiving any and all costs that could come up after turn in, only b/c we were ready to lease 4GC. But, no salesmen there or at my work (except the fleet manager) knew that clause existed.
08-01-2016, 03:54 PM
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08-01-2016, 05:10 PM
#16
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Hmmm. Thanks for this thread. I learned something new about my RLX lease. Acura charges $350 for an end of term fee, and it's waived if you lease another Acura or Honda within 30 days of turn-in. They've got some sweet deals, like moving your unused mileage, up to 15k miles, onto the next lease.
08-01-2016, 05:42 PM
#17
Trolling Canuckistan
Its amazing to me how few people realize this is an option. Back in my days with Acura I made a lot of customers happy by helping them pull equity out of their lease returns instead of just giving them back.
08-01-2016, 05:45 PM
#18
Senior Moderator
Definitely a good "lesson learned " thread, thanks for sharing!!
08-01-2016, 05:56 PM
#19
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Pruis and highlander I had equity...current Cherokee lease...I dont have equity. So, Im debating about turning it in and taking the loss...or trading it and taking the loss. Either way, meh.
08-01-2016, 06:20 PM
#20
Trolling Canuckistan
You may have positive equity, you may not, but you won't have negative equity. The Cherokee must have had an artificially high residual so no bonus for trading it. On the other hand, the artificially high residual kept your payments down so you had that going for the entire lease term.
08-01-2016, 06:22 PM
#21
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You may have positive equity, you may not, but you won't have negative equity. The Cherokee must have had an artificially high residual so no bonus for trading it. On the other hand, the artificially high residual kept your payments down so you had that going for the entire lease term.
08-01-2016, 06:27 PM
#22
Trolling Canuckistan
Yeah, I'm assuming at the end of the lease. Unless you are over on the mileage or are returning a damaged vehicle you should never be upside down at the end of a lease (other than the disposition fee obviously).
08-01-2016, 06:33 PM
#23
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08-01-2016, 06:35 PM
#24
Burning Brakes
If your sister took care of the car like her own, then normally this would not be the case. If she returned the car with scratches everywhere, worn out tires, cracked windshield and etc... well yah,
Many of the people who lease think "Oh it is not my car, so fuck it" and that is the problem.
Also, she should not be surprised about the bill since there should have been an inspection prior to maturity date where the inspector would go over the car and explain exactly what is being charge and why.
If she just returned the car without getting inspected, then she just let the dealer decide what "Excessive Wear and Tear" is without a chance to make the repairs herself for MUCH MUCH MUCH less $$.
Many of the people who lease think "Oh it is not my car, so fuck it" and that is the problem.
Also, she should not be surprised about the bill since there should have been an inspection prior to maturity date where the inspector would go over the car and explain exactly what is being charge and why.
If she just returned the car without getting inspected, then she just let the dealer decide what "Excessive Wear and Tear" is without a chance to make the repairs herself for MUCH MUCH MUCH less $$.
08-01-2016, 07:16 PM
#26
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But then again, a lot can happen in 9 months and perhaps we wont have to worry about it.
08-01-2016, 09:00 PM
#27
Senior Moderator
Not sure what you mean here. What can you use the equity in a lease for? Do you mean if you intend to purchase at the end of the lease? Or pulling the equity forward into another lease and thereby reducing the cap cost of the next car? Thanks! I genuinely want to understand. (Of course, I have a RLX Sport Hybrid, it'll probably worth less than zero by the time my lease is done, so this may not be relevant in my case).
08-01-2016, 09:10 PM
#28
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Not sure what you mean here. What can you use the equity in a lease for? Do you mean if you intend to purchase at the end of the lease? Or pulling the equity forward into another lease and thereby reducing the cap cost of the next car? Thanks! I genuinely want to understand. (Of course, I have a RLX Sport Hybrid, it'll probably worth less than zero by the time my lease is done, so this may not be relevant in my case).
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08-02-2016, 01:47 PM
#29
Team Owner
Not sure what you mean here. What can you use the equity in a lease for? Do you mean if you intend to purchase at the end of the lease? Or pulling the equity forward into another lease and thereby reducing the cap cost of the next car? Thanks! I genuinely want to understand. (Of course, I have a RLX Sport Hybrid, it'll probably worth less than zero by the time my lease is done, so this may not be relevant in my case).
Say like Sarlacc wants to sell his Jeep right now with 9 month left. He can either call or find online how much is the Buy It Now price. Say $20,000
he goes to carmax or any used car dealer to get an appraisal like you would with any car. Say they offer him $23,000 (He wishes
)Carmax will take care of the transition pay off the loan at $20,000 and all the paperwork and cut you a check for $3,000 and you call an Uber to go home.
You can use this $3,000 for whatever you want.
It does not work on every car, usually cars with super high resale values like most of the Hondas, Tacoma and etc... If you have a German, Hyundai, most of the Domestic brands, in your case RLX, this option will not end well for you.
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08-02-2016, 05:24 PM
#30
Trolling Canuckistan
Not sure what you mean here. What can you use the equity in a lease for? Do you mean if you intend to purchase at the end of the lease? Or pulling the equity forward into another lease and thereby reducing the cap cost of the next car? Thanks! I genuinely want to understand. (Of course, I have a RLX Sport Hybrid, it'll probably worth less than zero by the time my lease is done, so this may not be relevant in my case).
Lets say your lease buy out (at maturity) is $15000 and you have 2 payments left of $500 each, it would take $16000 to get out now and own the car outright (or just 15,000 when the lease is up). When you go to get a new vehicle (purchase or lease, same manufacturer or not it doesn't matter), just say you have a vehicle you want to trade.
If the dealers appraised value is higher than your buy out plus remaining payment (if any) then you've got equity.
So in the example of 15000 + 2 payments of 500, if they appraised your lease for 17500, you can use the 1500 extra towards your next lease or purchase.
The benefit is that at lease maturity you can't be upside down. If they appraised the car for 12,000 you are off the hook and can just turn in the lease as you normally would.
Just because it's a lease many feel you can't trade it as you didn't "own" it but they don't think twice about trading in a vehicle they were "buying" but haven't finished paying for (they didn't own that either).
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08-02-2016, 06:07 PM
#31
Safety Car
Think of the lease contract as a manufacturer's best guess of the residual value of the car after the lease. They are expecting the car to be worth a certain value at the end of the lease, and so they will charge you for the part of the depreciation you use. This is why strict adherence to the lease contract is important because if you go over your mileage, you have thrown off their value tables.
Sometimes the manufacturer estimates are wrong if the car holds its value better than expected. This was really apparent in the few years after the Financial Crisis because there was a shortage of used cars (people weren't buying as many new cars 08-11). If you had leased a car during that time, you probably would have benefited from the much stronger used car market that the leasing tables did not account for at the time the lease was entered. People were making a few thousand selling their used car on the market vs turning it back in. From the perspective of the leasing company, they are made whole in cash what they expected to recoup from selling the car themselves, so they don't particularly care.
There's been a few other blips where it sometimes happens. When fuel prices unexpectedly rose, the market for small economy cars went up and it would have made more financial sense to sell the car outright vs returning it.
I think the used market is currently well supplied though, so the arbitrage between the projected values and the actual market values are probably pretty close for most cars.
Sometimes the manufacturer estimates are wrong if the car holds its value better than expected. This was really apparent in the few years after the Financial Crisis because there was a shortage of used cars (people weren't buying as many new cars 08-11). If you had leased a car during that time, you probably would have benefited from the much stronger used car market that the leasing tables did not account for at the time the lease was entered. People were making a few thousand selling their used car on the market vs turning it back in. From the perspective of the leasing company, they are made whole in cash what they expected to recoup from selling the car themselves, so they don't particularly care.
There's been a few other blips where it sometimes happens. When fuel prices unexpectedly rose, the market for small economy cars went up and it would have made more financial sense to sell the car outright vs returning it.
I think the used market is currently well supplied though, so the arbitrage between the projected values and the actual market values are probably pretty close for most cars.
08-02-2016, 06:09 PM
#32
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You DO have the option to sell your car at ANYTIME during the term of the lease.
Say like Sarlacc wants to sell his Jeep right now with 9 month left. He can either call or find online how much is the Buy It Now price. Say $20,000
he goes to carmax or any used car dealer to get an appraisal like you would with any car. Say they offer him $23,000 (He wishes)
Carmax will take care of the transition pay off the loan at $20,000 and all the paperwork and cut you a check for $3,000 and you call an Uber to go home.
You can use this $3,000 for whatever you want.
It does not work on every car, usually cars with super high resale values like most of the Hondas, Tacoma and etc... If you have a German, Hyundai, most of the Domestic brands, in your case RLX, this option will not end well for you.
Say like Sarlacc wants to sell his Jeep right now with 9 month left. He can either call or find online how much is the Buy It Now price. Say $20,000
he goes to carmax or any used car dealer to get an appraisal like you would with any car. Say they offer him $23,000 (He wishes
)Carmax will take care of the transition pay off the loan at $20,000 and all the paperwork and cut you a check for $3,000 and you call an Uber to go home.
You can use this $3,000 for whatever you want.
It does not work on every car, usually cars with super high resale values like most of the Hondas, Tacoma and etc... If you have a German, Hyundai, most of the Domestic brands, in your case RLX, this option will not end well for you.
Highlander is super desirable on the secondary market. Jeep, I'll have to keep til I end I think.
08-02-2016, 06:21 PM
#33
Safety Car
And this is why it's important to read and understand every word/sentence on anything you have to physically sign and are financialy tied to (apartments, cars, houses, loans, etc.) Never trust any verbal promises/omissions/etc. Another reminder and a lesson learned hopefully
08-02-2016, 06:26 PM
#34
Trolling Canuckistan
The other side of this coin was the people who leased gas guzzling trucks in 03-05 that were worth 5000-10000 less than their residual at the end of the lease (and GM and Ford lost a huge pile of money on these deals). What they thought an SUV would be worth 3 years down the road with gas under $2 a gallon was drastically different than what they were worth with gas near $4 a gallon. I believe both GM and Ford shut down leasing for a period in the 2005-2008 range because the volatility in fuel prices made estimating future value nearly impossible.
08-02-2016, 07:44 PM
#35
Team Owner
I am already $4,000 upside down on my 435, so yah probably gonna keep it till the end too... and the new upcoming 440's name change will make it worse.
08-02-2016, 08:22 PM
#36
Senior Moderator
Thanks for the lesson guys! Once again, AZ rocks. Before the RLX, I'd never leased before, so I'm still feeling my way around the process almost two years in. The RLX has awful depreciation and while I am lusting after a Tesla Model S P90D or 3G CTS-V (though realistically just need an Accord Sport 6MT for my DD needs), it's more than likely that I'm sticking with the RLX until the end of my lease in another year.
08-03-2016, 08:23 AM
#37
Safety Car
Hopefully using leasing brokers will help waive, or minimize that.
But a $400 flat fee is pretty egregious for a Kia Optima. Or any car really, where the fee is well above 1 month of lease payment. If the car is $25k, and the residual is 60%, the lease payments are covering for an estimated $10k of depreciation. A $400 fee is a whopping 4% of that ! To put that in perspective, that's like leasing a $80k RR, at 50% residual, at 4%, would be a $1,600 disposition fee (apples to apples comparison).
But a $400 flat fee is pretty egregious for a Kia Optima. Or any car really, where the fee is well above 1 month of lease payment. If the car is $25k, and the residual is 60%, the lease payments are covering for an estimated $10k of depreciation. A $400 fee is a whopping 4% of that ! To put that in perspective, that's like leasing a $80k RR, at 50% residual, at 4%, would be a $1,600 disposition fee (apples to apples comparison).
Last edited by ThermonMermon; 08-03-2016 at 08:28 AM.
08-03-2016, 11:35 AM
#38
Team Owner
Thanks for the lesson guys! Once again, AZ rocks. Before the RLX, I'd never leased before, so I'm still feeling my way around the process almost two years in. The RLX has awful depreciation and while I am lusting after a Tesla Model S P90D or 3G CTS-V (though realistically just need an Accord Sport 6MT for my DD needs), it's more than likely that I'm sticking with the RLX until the end of my lease in another year.
Since you leased, you pay your monthly and walk away and let someone else deal with the difference between the RV and the actual market value.
08-03-2016, 09:14 PM
#39
Senior Moderator
^^^^
Yup, I knew the car would depreciate like stink and I didn't want to own it for that reason. In addition, the tax benefit to my business made a lease an even better win. I may go to my local CarMax for spits and giggles, just to see how low the offer would be.
Yup, I knew the car would depreciate like stink and I didn't want to own it for that reason. In addition, the tax benefit to my business made a lease an even better win. I may go to my local CarMax for spits and giggles, just to see how low the offer would be.
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