Which car started the HP wars of today?
05-03-2006, 12:18 PM
#41
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Originally Posted by cob3683
HP wars started WAY before this example, but I would say that the introduction of M and AMG have played the most significant role over the last 10 years.
FYI, BMW's M has been around for a long time, they were bring M5's out here in the late 80's also the M6's, along w/ the E30 M3 which is still said to be the best M car ever and one of the most fun cars of all time
But yes, I think the 99 E55 followed by the 2000 M6 definately set the road for GT sedans. The Jag was up there in power but didn't have the finese.
05-03-2006, 12:22 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by CLpower
I'll still say though, I think the early 90's set it off, esp. 1993.
70's cars sucked for the most part, and didn't get much better in the 80's...
The 90's would be about where they started...
Originally Posted by CLpower
IMO it started w/ in the early 90's when the Corvette ZR1, 300ZX TT's, Supra's, 355's, 3000GT's, vipers, and nsx...hit the shore. Since then, they have been trying to outdo each other, and have gone up every year.
05-03-2006, 12:22 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by CLpower
FYI, BMW's M has been around for a long time, they were bring M5's out here in the late 80's, along w/ the E30 M3 which is still said to be the best M car ever and one of the most fun cars of all time
And I agree completely about the E30 M3....
05-03-2006, 12:24 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by cob3683
Yep, but talking pure HP numbers between the two of them, that has only been going on since really the E36 M3, C36/C43, and E55.
And I agree completely about the E30 M3....
And I agree completely about the E30 M3....
a friend of mines dad had an old M6, that thing was so fucking pimp!!!!!
Remember though, AMG and //M have always had a good rivalry, we just never heard about it because MBZ didn't bring AMG on board till the late 90's. So it wasn't a factory rivalry because AMG was an aftermarket company.
05-03-2006, 12:35 PM
#46
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Here's my 
.
There's 2 HP wars. There's the normal HP wars, and then the crazy HP wars.
The normal HP wars were started in the 90's, and include any number of other cars mentioned in this thread. But I think with sports cars, its not as big a deal as with, family sedans, for instance. So with sports cars, power increases are pretty much expected. The early 90's Japanese sports cars did raise the bar in a BIG way, kudos to them for that.
There is only one root of the crazy HP wars: AMG. 612 hp and 738 ft-lbs of torque, stock, in a family sedan. That is a pure, unadultered, indulgent, and all-encompassing ownage. You could argue that AMG has basically been doing their own thing, with the hallmark car being the 1987 AMG Hammer - once AMG merged with MB - i.e. AMG models straight from your MB dealer, the deal was done. It's only now that everyone else is catching up.
.There's 2 HP wars. There's the normal HP wars, and then the crazy HP wars.
The normal HP wars were started in the 90's, and include any number of other cars mentioned in this thread. But I think with sports cars, its not as big a deal as with, family sedans, for instance. So with sports cars, power increases are pretty much expected. The early 90's Japanese sports cars did raise the bar in a BIG way, kudos to them for that.
There is only one root of the crazy HP wars: AMG. 612 hp and 738 ft-lbs of torque, stock, in a family sedan. That is a pure, unadultered, indulgent, and all-encompassing ownage. You could argue that AMG has basically been doing their own thing, with the hallmark car being the 1987 AMG Hammer - once AMG merged with MB - i.e. AMG models straight from your MB dealer, the deal was done. It's only now that everyone else is catching up.
05-03-2006, 12:45 PM
#47
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The 80's BMW M-models were fast, but not ridiculous fast. The AMG Hammer did the quarter in 13.5 @ 109.. in 1987. Don't know the trap speed off-hand but the 1987 M6 did the 1/4 in mid 15's. 
05-03-2006, 12:48 PM
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Yes, but as mentioned, AMG was a tuner at the time , so you'd compare them more to what Gemballa was doing w/ the porsches, etc.
, so you'd compare them more to what Gemballa was doing w/ the porsches, etc.
05-03-2006, 12:55 PM
#50
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Originally Posted by GreenMonster
The TLS and CLS had 260hp before the 02 altima came out...
But since when did a TLS compete with an Altima? Maybe for some of you it did but I not for me.
05-03-2006, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Nicky Pass
Can you say Mustang vs. Camaro vs. Firebird....
05-03-2006, 12:56 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by CLpower
Yes, but as mentioned, AMG was a tuner at the time , so you'd compare them more to what Gemballa was doing w/ the porsches, etc.
, so you'd compare them more to what Gemballa was doing w/ the porsches, etc.
05-03-2006, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
But since when did a TLS compete with an Altima? Maybe for some of you it did but I not for me.
I don't see how they really didn't. If i'm not mistaken a fully loaded Altima came out to about 28K just a little cheaper then a TL-S
Also remember, the V6 accords weren't that far off as well.
05-03-2006, 01:01 PM
#54
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Originally Posted by CLpower
I don't see how they really didn't. If i'm not mistaken a fully loaded Altima was like 2-3K cheaper then a TL-S
Ok, maybe thats the problem. Not in this country.
A TLS was closer to 40 and I think 41 in its last model year while an Altima stickered at 33-34 loaded.
05-03-2006, 01:02 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
I would have to agree the '99 E55 started the "crazy" HP wars. The AMG Hammer was mentioned as more of an 'anecdote'.
As for the crazy hp wars, you can trace that back to the muscle car days. Emissions ruined it for a while, but it's back.
05-03-2006, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
Ok, maybe thats the problem. Not in this country. A TLS was closer to 40 and I think 41 in its last model year while an Altima stickered at 33-34 loaded.
A TLS was closer to 40 and I think 41 in its last model year while an Altima stickered at 33-34 loaded.Just a curious question, when did you get into cars?
05-03-2006, 01:19 PM
#57
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Originally Posted by Maximized
I'd say BMW M did more for the performance envelope than AMG.
As for the crazy hp wars, you can trace that back to the muscle car days. Emissions ruined it for a while, but it's back.
As for the crazy hp wars, you can trace that back to the muscle car days. Emissions ruined it for a while, but it's back.
05-03-2006, 01:30 PM
#58
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Originally Posted by srika
I would have to agree the '99 E55 started the "crazy" HP wars. The AMG Hammer was mentioned as more of an 'anecdote'.
05-03-2006, 01:46 PM
#59
Originally Posted by Nicky Pass
Can you say Mustang vs. Camaro vs. Firebird....
Having been around for the late 70's and early 80's I can remember the poor performance of cars from that era. Then in 82' came the HO Mustang, then the 195 hp 5.0 camaro. 85' 210 hp Mustang, followed by the TPI 5.0/5.7 Chevrolets. What really did it for me was the 86' Buick Grand National. In 1986 Buick produced a car that ran 0-60 in 4.9 seconds and ran the quarter mile high 13's in factory trim. On 215 radials. Car and Driver and most publications claimed the horsepower rating was somewhat on the conservative side. Just as manufacturers did in the late 60's. Slicks and C16 you were in the 12's.
Having owned several, my 86' I purchased new still resides in the garage, coming out a few times a year to yank the world backwards.
Terry
05-03-2006, 01:58 PM
#63
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Originally Posted by CLpower
Just a curious question, when did you get into cars?
Do you disagree with my CAD pricing?
An Altima and TL do not compete with each other IMO.
05-03-2006, 02:00 PM
#64
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up there it didn't, down here it did, that's regardless of this whole thread where I and many others still 
at the thought you think Nissan started the wars 
The Nissans HP was rivaled by who you called a competitor 10 years prior, you are also comparing a new model that was compared to two (accord and camry) that were seriously outdated and due for makeups the next year. if you don't think Honda already had that motor developed they put in the V6 accord when the Altima was released, you'd be wrong. And going from 200 -> 240 in a car that gained a few hundred pounds would have been a requirement, and anything from a war.
So point still stands
at nissan starting it
at the thought you think Nissan started the wars The Nissans HP was rivaled by who you called a competitor 10 years prior, you are also comparing a new model that was compared to two (accord and camry) that were seriously outdated and due for makeups the next year. if you don't think Honda already had that motor developed they put in the V6 accord when the Altima was released, you'd be wrong. And going from 200 -> 240 in a car that gained a few hundred pounds would have been a requirement, and anything from a war.
So point still stands
at nissan starting it
05-03-2006, 02:06 PM
#65
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Originally Posted by CLpower
up there it didn't, down here it did, that's regardless of this whole thread where I and many others still at the thought you think Nissan started the wars
at the thought you think Nissan started the wars Honestly, I was thinking more along the lines of what Saki just said when I saw this thread, I swear
My original statement "When I think of HP wars I think of Nissan" was more a reflection of today rather than 10 or 20 years ago. Practically every car in the Nissan lineup from 02 has been the most powerful car in its class. Which also happened to coincide with Nissan's turnaround. When I currently think of HP per $ Nissan is right there.
05-03-2006, 02:08 PM
#66
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Originally Posted by CLpower
up there it didn't, down here it did, that's regardless of this whole thread where I and many others still at the thought you think Nissan started the wars
at the thought you think Nissan started the wars I did mention the 93 Camaro/Firebird didn't I?
05-03-2006, 02:20 PM
#67
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Originally Posted by dom
Honestly, I was thinking more along the lines of what Saki just said when I saw this thread, I swear My original statement "When I think of HP wars I think of Nissan" was more a reflection of today rather than 10 or 20 years ago. Practically every car in the Nissan lineup from 02 has been the most powerful car in its class. Which also happened to coincide with Nissan's turnaround. When I currently think of HP per $ Nissan is right there.
My original statement "When I think of HP wars I think of Nissan" was more a reflection of today rather than 10 or 20 years ago. Practically every car in the Nissan lineup from 02 has been the most powerful car in its class. Which also happened to coincide with Nissan's turnaround. When I currently think of HP per $ Nissan is right there. 
But then again, when you build a motor for your sports car, then decide to put it in everything, well, you get a lot of HP (
why won't chevy bring over the 4 door LS1/LS2 powered cars they have floating around the country )
05-03-2006, 02:29 PM
#68
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Originally Posted by CLpower
i'm still not sure how you look at nissan even today, but oh well
But then again, when you build a motor for your sports car, then decide to put it in everything, well, you get a lot of HP (
why won't chevy bring over the 4 door LS1/LS2 powered cars they have floating around the country )
)
05-03-2006, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dom
Maybe not today considering Toyota's 3.5L but most of their cars were the most powerful cars in their class up til recently. And please correct me if I'm wrong.
and :bash: Ford as well
05-03-2006, 02:34 PM
#70
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Originally Posted by CLpower
well the year after Honda released the V6 that was what 10 shy? which we knew was comming. I wouldn't consider a 10 HP difference anything extravigant
and :bash: Ford as well
and :bash: Ford as well
What about TQ?
05-03-2006, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by srika
I agree, if we are talking about performance, in general. But, we are only talking about HP.
05-03-2006, 02:51 PM
#74
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Originally Posted by Maximized
AMG wasn't big until the mid 90s and they were a "tuner" until 90 when Damiler Benz bought them out.
05-03-2006, 02:55 PM
#75
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Originally Posted by DownUnder
Don't forget the 322HP S/C I6 XJR in '95 and then the 370HP S/C V8 XJR in '98.
On another note, I have to say I like it when companies have F1 presence. Along with other motorspors. But F1 is at the top. Jaguar used to, so I give em a
.
05-03-2006, 02:59 PM
#76
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Originally Posted by srika
good calls. BUT... they haven't done much more than that. I think the highest was the S-Type R, at 400hp, no?
On another note, I have to say I like it when companies have F1 presence. Along with other motorspors. But F1 is at the top. Jaguar used to, so I give em a .
On another note, I have to say I like it when companies have F1 presence. Along with other motorspors. But F1 is at the top. Jaguar used to, so I give em a
.The reason I don't think Jag has upgraded the HP on their supercharged V8s is because they've made their cars lighter, which then in turn made them faster
And the car that started the HP wars was the 300SL..........150mph in 1954
05-03-2006, 03:03 PM
#77
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Originally Posted by Minch00
The reason I don't think Jag has upgraded the HP on their supercharged V8s is because they've made their cars lighter, which then in turn made them faster
um, the XJR weighs 4K
05-03-2006, 03:15 PM
#80
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the S550 benz is close to it, and the 7 series bMW is 400 lbs more (which I wouldn't consider MUCH lighter)
if you made its competition the E55 and new M5, it's dead even as far as weight
if you made its competition the E55 and new M5, it's dead even as far as weight